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Miners ! Do you want CCP to do someting about the ganks on miners ?

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#61 - 2014-04-28 10:37:22 UTC
Asia Leigh wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

"safer than the other barges" is fine.

"close to invincible" is not. They swung this one too far.


What are you talking about? Full tank mode I get over 100k ehp in a skiff. The extra low slot allows me to put another Power Diagnostic II raising it a whooping 3k ehp more. How does 3k ehp make it close to invisible?


I'm talking about having bonused drones combined with the tank that it has.

Like I said, when you're talking about nullsec, any ship that can reasonably get past a gatecamp can not kill this thing. If that's the intent, fine.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#62 - 2014-04-28 10:39:42 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:

Again, I thought we were talking about solo play, but you if you bring massively multiplayer multibox into it, then who cares? Your iskcome is so good screw tank and deploy 30 untanked Hulks. The only people who are really pissed by that are the other miners anyway.

Dave was the one who brought multiboxed fleets into it. That quote you seized on was me replying to him, not you.

Anyway, other points.
Unless you have an unusual fit, they bring enough to kill you in highsec no matter what your tank, so concord doesn't save you.
Solo mining in a tanked ship won't save you anywhere unless you have friends, so if you are talking actually solo, it's irrelevant what your tank is anywhere outside of high, or in high with a WT. Possible exception being the skiff if the drones actually work like people are EFT warrioring. However since drones wig out at speed, they probably won't. Anything else, you die in a fire, it just takes a little longer.
Also if we are talking solo, you don't have a hauler alt anyway. You have to multibox to use a hauler alt regardless, so could multibox it doing something else.
And if the hauler alt could make more money doing something else with no skills.... then you still loose money using it to haul. The only situation a hauler alt doesn't loose money is in the large fleet scenario.


So, back to the original point. There is plenty of reason to use a retriever if you mine and are looking for a low cost option. There is also some good reason to use a procurer. On Ice the Procurer is actually a very good choice for a cheap hard to gank ship. Since there it has a time bonus so can mine the last of an ice roid from under a retrievers lasers. So, the balance is fairly good between them, retriever slightly better on ore, proc better on ice once you account for tank, since ice miners also get ganked more due to being more concentrated by belts.
AzzyE
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2014-04-28 10:40:20 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
AzzyE wrote:
Miners ! Do you want CCP to do someting about the ganks on miners ?

CCP is doing something.... look at that Skiff!!!! Shocked

SKIFF

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Shield HP
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Exhumer Bonus per level:
+4% Shield resistances
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
+50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints

Slot layout: 1H, 5M, 3L(+1);
Fittings: 50 PWG, 300(+30) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 5500 / 6000
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 900 / 187.5s / 4.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200 / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 100(+50)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 440(-220) / 6(+2)
Sensor strength: 14(+4)
Signature radius: 150(-50)
Ore Bay: 15000m3


I put in a alot of training in mining and industry and i cant use my skills ?
Kind of a waste eh ?
I use Hulks to mine in.
Buff them and i might come back to the game
PizzaGirlDeepDish
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-04-28 10:40:44 UTC
I don't understand why people think its a good idea to mine in t2 mining barges in highsec. Seems like you are just asking to be ganked lol....
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#65 - 2014-04-28 10:42:57 UTC
AzzyE wrote:


I put in a alot of training in mining and industry and i cant use my skills ?
Kind of a waste eh ?
I use Hulks to mine in.
Buff them and i might come back to the game

Amazingly Skiffs & Macks use identical skills to Hulks.......
Dave stark
#66 - 2014-04-28 10:44:28 UTC
AzzyE wrote:
Buff them and i might come back to the game


players that try to use their monthly subscription to blackmail ccp in to doing things, aren't really the kind of players we want anyway.

alternatively, if you put forward a coherent argument as to why the hulk needs more changes than those currently announced you may have a better chance at getting what you want.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#67 - 2014-04-28 10:45:22 UTC
AzzyE wrote:

I use Hulks to mine in.
Buff them and i might come back to the game


You heard it guys, he outright refuses to defend himself. It is his Constitutional right or something to be able to fit max yield with no consequences.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dave stark
#68 - 2014-04-28 10:45:32 UTC
PizzaGirlDeepDish wrote:
I don't understand why people think its a good idea to mine in t2 mining barges in highsec. Seems like you are just asking to be ganked lol....


because they are better than t1 mining barges.
Asia Leigh
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2014-04-28 10:47:45 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

I'm talking about having bonused drones combined with the tank that it has.



ah okay.

I think it would have been better if they took that 50% role bonus and made it a 10% bonus per skill level to make it in line with all the other drone boats. Basically what you have here is a vexor with a dominix tank. If they want to keep the drone damage bonus it would be more balanced if you had to train to get the full effect, then if you got it from Level 1.

Still though, A skiff/procurer is meant to be an extreamly tanky mining barge. I think the drone damage bonus is more meant for dealing with rats then players. After all, all a frigate pilot has to do is primary the drones and unlike other ships, you just dropped the mining barge to 0 dps...
Apply the damn rules equally >.>
Dave stark
#70 - 2014-04-28 10:49:23 UTC
could just bring more than 1 frigate. it is a multiplayer game, after all.
AzzyE
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2014-04-28 10:50:06 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
AzzyE wrote:


I put in a alot of training in mining and industry and i cant use my skills ?
Kind of a waste eh ?
I use Hulks to mine in.
Buff them and i might come back to the game

Amazingly Skiffs & Macks use identical skills to Hulks.......


What im saying is i trained all these skills to be able to use the best mining ship in the game.
Now i cant do that right ?
So it's a waste of my training imo.

This ganking culture that is compleatly new to me ( i lived in 0.0 for many years )
dosent make any sense to me.

The only reason i can see for why ppl gank miners is griefing.
There is no other gain or is it ?

Yes Eve shouldnt be safe but you should be able to play it whit a tanked ship and not afk whit out geting ganked for no reason
other then ppl can do it.
Dave stark
#72 - 2014-04-28 10:52:04 UTC
AzzyE wrote:
What im saying is i trained all these skills to be able to use the best mining ship in the game.
Now i cant do that right ?
So it's a waste of my training imo.


wrong, you can still fly the hulk; you trained all those skills to use it.
Asia Leigh
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2014-04-28 10:53:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

players that try to use their monthly subscription to blackmail ccp in to doing things, aren't really the kind of players we want anyway.

alternatively, if you put forward a coherent argument as to why the hulk needs more changes than those currently announced you may have a better chance at getting what you want.


Yeah, only CSM is allowed to do this :D

AzzyE wrote:
Buff them and i might come back to the game


Uh... okay... knock yourself out with those hulks...

IB4 "WHAAAAAA!!!111!!! I got suicide ganked, must nerf high sec"
Apply the damn rules equally >.>
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#74 - 2014-04-28 10:53:19 UTC
AzzyE wrote:
The only reason i can see for why ppl gank miners is griefing.
There is no other gain or is it ?


Because one miner contracting ganks on other miners in area is sooo impossible to imagine.

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Black Canary Jnr
Higher Than Everest
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#75 - 2014-04-28 10:53:20 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


"safer than the other barges" is fine.

"close to invincible" is not. They swung this one too far.

Why should a cruiser sized ship designed for tank and bonused for light & medium drones be soloable by a frigate?
It seems to me to be in a good spot. Of course if you speed tank the drones you get them to wig out in the MWD speed trap, and take no damage either way.


Actually the proc/ skiff is frig sized when you repackage it, just has an abnormally large sig.
There never was anything wrong with the proc/ skiff in the first place, i tanked 2 bs/ 3 cruiser spawns in it mining solo, the extra low was all that was needed in terms of buffs to make the yield better. Now we are gonna have a 150 dps (without DDAs) proc with cruiser/ BC tank ,cruiser sensor strength, and cruiser/ BC drone bay. Well i know what i'm flying in shield sinks from now on ;) And RR procs are gonna be totally OP now, calling it.

They will nerf it, it's only a matter of time ;)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#76 - 2014-04-28 10:53:35 UTC
AzzyE wrote:


What im saying is i trained all these skills to be able to use the best mining ship in the game.

And what CCP is saying is that there is no 'best' mining ship.
They all have a purpose and are all relatively equal depending on what you want to do with them.
Welcome to Tiericide, where there is no obvious 'best' any more. It's a much better state of affairs.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#77 - 2014-04-28 10:55:14 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Unless you have an unusual fit, they bring enough to kill you in highsec no matter what your tank, so concord doesn't save you.
Solo mining in a tanked ship won't save you anywhere unless you have friends, so if you are talking actually solo, it's irrelevant what your tank is anywhere outside of high, or in high with a WT. Possible exception being the skiff if the drones actually work like people are EFT warrioring. However since drones wig out at speed, they probably won't. Anything else, you die in a fire, it just takes a little longer.


This entire paragraph is demonstratably untrue. Im sorry that you feel its this way, and you can take this as an opinion if you want, but its just wrong. You have just said "Why bother defending myself at all? Bigger boys will always come." Thats a pretty defeatist attitude right there. Are you aware of how many Catalysts have to hit you simultaneously to take out a 54,000ehp Proc before CONCORD turns up?

Additional: if you are mining for yield, why are your drones anything but mining drones?

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Also if we are talking solo, you don't have a hauler alt anyway. You have to multibox to use a hauler alt regardless, so could multibox it doing something else.
And if the hauler alt could make more money doing something else with no skills.... then you still loose money using it to haul. The only situation a hauler alt doesn't loose money is in the large fleet scenario.

Yes because making isk and not spending it is the purpose of EvE Roll this is the point Ive been trying to work up to. The hauler alt exists to keep your miner secure NOT to boost your isk, though he can suppliment your income by means your mining character cant.


Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So, back to the original point. There is plenty of reason to use a retriever if you mine and are looking for a low cost option. There is also some good reason to use a procurer. On Ice the Procurer is actually a very good choice for a cheap hard to gank ship. Since there it has a time bonus so can mine the last of an ice roid from under a retrievers lasers. So, the balance is fairly good between them, retriever slightly better on ore, proc better on ice once you account for tank, since ice miners also get ganked more due to being more concentrated by belts.


And I disagree. Lower Risk before Increased Isk means that less people will complain that Gankers are "ruining the game". Believe it or not, my view is informed by a wish for every playstyle to exist together. Players cannot blame their unwillingness to defend themselves as a reason that others play should be limited or removed. Which is really the point of the thread, OP's literal content not withstanding.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#78 - 2014-04-28 10:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Ramona McCandless wrote:

And I disagree. Lower Risk before Increased Isk means that less people will complain that Gankers are "ruining the game". Believe it or not, my view is informed by a wish for every playstyle to exist together. Players cannot blame their unwillingness to defend themselves as a reason that others play should be limited or removed. Which is really the point of the thread, OP's literal content not withstanding.

Which doesn't mean that there isn't still plenty of reason to use a retriever. You can use a retriever without complaining that gankers are ruining the game.

(Also depending on sec space, I believe 4 Catalysts can do that Proc kill, though they aren't throw away alts that get recycled against CCP rules to do it with only 4)
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#79 - 2014-04-28 10:57:49 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
AzzyE wrote:


What im saying is i trained all these skills to be able to use the best mining ship in the game.

And what CCP is saying is that there is no 'best' mining ship.
They all have a purpose and are all relatively equal depending on what you want to do with them.
Welcome to Tiericide, where there is no obvious 'best' any more. It's a much better state of affairs.


This I entirely agree with

+1

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#80 - 2014-04-28 10:59:29 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:

And I disagree. Lower Risk before Increased Isk means that less people will complain that Gankers are "ruining the game". Believe it or not, my view is informed by a wish for every playstyle to exist together. Players cannot blame their unwillingness to defend themselves as a reason that others play should be limited or removed. Which is really the point of the thread, OP's literal content not withstanding.

Which doesn't mean that there isn't still plenty of reason to use a retriever. You can use a retriever without complaining that gankers are ruining the game.


And I agree with this too +1

I must say, having a grown up conversation with you regarding this and the to and fro of our points has been very refreshing

Usually, threads like this (not meaning you, meaning certain other folk) have deteriorated into badness

I commend you on an enjoyable debate

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann