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Miners ! Do you want CCP to do someting about the ganks on miners ?

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Alyth Nerun
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#21 - 2014-04-28 08:13:29 UTC
Don't worry CCP, I will sub another gank alt to compensate for the OP
Asia Leigh
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-04-28 08:18:02 UTC
Alyth Nerun wrote:
Don't worry CCP, I will sub another gank alt to compensate for the OP


see... who said that Q.Q threads didn't help the bottom line :D
Apply the damn rules equally >.>
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#23 - 2014-04-28 08:21:12 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:


The only downside is that these will probably continue to drive its price up even further, but then that will be good for some folk too.

.



Procurers are stupidly cheap due to a massive oversupply dating back forever... they sell for 15 mill or so whilst they cost 20 mill plus to make. Its one of the few ships where T2 fits can cost as much as the hull.

If they end up mining at the same rate as a retriever they will become very viable if you are loading directly into an Orca. Especially with some fleet boosts to the tank.


Yes. And six months ago they were 10m

If? Dont they almost mine at the same rate as it is? (Im not a bean counter, so I dont count 10% +/- as an effective difference in rate)

The few who stubbornly refuse to leave their terribad retrievers will I suppose be able to pick up loads on the used market.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Asia Leigh
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2014-04-28 08:31:28 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:


The only downside is that these will probably continue to drive its price up even further, but then that will be good for some folk too.

.



Procurers are stupidly cheap due to a massive oversupply dating back forever... they sell for 15 mill or so whilst they cost 20 mill plus to make. Its one of the few ships where T2 fits can cost as much as the hull.

If they end up mining at the same rate as a retriever they will become very viable if you are loading directly into an Orca. Especially with some fleet boosts to the tank.


Yes. And six months ago they were 10m

If? Dont they almost mine at the same rate as it is? (Im not a bean counter, so I dont count 10% +/- as an effective difference in rate)

The few who stubbornly refuse to leave their terribad retrievers will I suppose be able to pick up loads on the used market.


Last time I put it through EFT, The retriever mined with less then 1% more yield then the procurer. The only reason the retriever/machinaw is so popular is because they are AFK friendly with their large cargo bays. Basically all the retriever/machinaw are is suicide ganker magnets. Might as well just put up a sign that says gank me around your neck.
Apply the damn rules equally >.>
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#25 - 2014-04-28 08:39:56 UTC
Asia Leigh wrote:


Last time I put it through EFT, The retriever mined with less then 1% more yield then the procurer. The only reason the retriever/machinaw is so popular is because they are AFK friendly with their large cargo bays. Basically all the retriever/machinaw are is suicide ganker magnets. Might as well just put up a sign that says gank me around your neck.


See, thats what I had suspected but never checked.

Lazy asses and people who dont know any better because they have terrible CEOs think that the Ret is in someway a better ship that the Proc

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Solecist Project
#26 - 2014-04-28 08:52:46 UTC
I agree with the OP.
All these miners should just unsub.

Instead, others who actually understand not to get killed will take their places.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#27 - 2014-04-28 08:57:40 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:


See, thats what I had suspected but never checked.

Lazy asses and people who dont know any better because they have terrible CEOs think that the Ret is in someway a better ship that the Proc

EFT Warriors never get the whole story.

While on paper the Proc is almost as good the retriever wins cleanly in reality due to the bonus to make them all equivalent to 3 strip miners being a yield bonus for ore, not a time/cap bonus like ice got.
Which means that a Proc mines 'dead' roids far more often resulting in wasted time, and therefore reduced yield.
Dave Stark
#28 - 2014-04-28 08:58:27 UTC
Asia Leigh wrote:
Last time I put it through EFT, The retriever mined with less then 1% more yield then the procurer.

they have the same yield, before mlus.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#29 - 2014-04-28 09:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:


See, thats what I had suspected but never checked.

Lazy asses and people who dont know any better because they have terrible CEOs think that the Ret is in someway a better ship that the Proc

EFT Warriors never get the whole story.

While on paper the Proc is almost as good the retriever wins cleanly in reality due to the bonus to make them all equivalent to 3 strip miners being a yield bonus for ore, not a time/cap bonus like ice got.
Which means that a Proc mines 'dead' roids far more often resulting in wasted time, and therefore reduced yield.



I dont use EFT, I look at the ship stats.
So instead of guessing, lets look.

Retriever
Traits:
Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to ore hold capacity

Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Strip Miner yield
33.33% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use

Procurer
Traits:
Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to shield hit points

Role Bonus:
200% bonus to Strip Miner yield
66.66% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use

So... A Ret has 2 Strip miners, each with a +50% Role bonus, giving a yield as if it had three strip miners

A Proc has 1 Strip miner, with a +200% Role bonus, giving a yield as if it had three strip miners

Now, unless Ive grabbed old data (and if I have, please correct me), looks like they are the same to me, modified by low slots, though this reduces the tank of both if exclusively fitted with Money-Grabber Upgrades

Also, how does the Proc mine "dead" roids more often? because it only has one beam and not two? If this is a worry, deploy mining drones.

Also, Rets are easier to kill, and so you are probably replacing the ship more often, and this should be a calculation if isk over time is your absolute only concern.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Asia Leigh
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2014-04-28 09:10:51 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:


See, thats what I had suspected but never checked.

Lazy asses and people who dont know any better because they have terrible CEOs think that the Ret is in someway a better ship that the Proc

EFT Warriors never get the whole story.

While on paper the Proc is almost as good the retriever wins cleanly in reality due to the bonus to make them all equivalent to 3 strip miners being a yield bonus for ore, not a time/cap bonus like ice got.
Which means that a Proc mines 'dead' roids far more often resulting in wasted time, and therefore reduced yield.


Hmm... I heard there was a module for such situations, you know - survey scanners. But yeah again you actually have to be at the keyboard to use it...

Don't be lazy and play the game... That's the point we are making
Apply the damn rules equally >.>
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#31 - 2014-04-28 09:10:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
On paper, ignoring the extra MLU of the retriever, yes.
However like I said, EFT Warriors never get the whole story. You are trying to EFT warrior also by simply looking at stats.
Which only give you the 'perfect world' scenario.

Actual use in space says despite the stats basically matching, the Proc actually doesn't do as well because it doesn't get as close to 'ideal' efficiency as the Retriever does on average.
Even using a survey scanner a Proc is still less efficient because you are sitting there with stopwatch in hand doing mental maths, and thus won't be perfectly accurate. And 1 second lost on the Proc is a larger margin than 1 second on the Retriever on a single strip. (Assuming you are sensible and split your strip miners)
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#32 - 2014-04-28 09:13:05 UTC
Asia Leigh wrote:


Hmm... I heard there was a module for such situations, you know - survey scanners. But yeah again you actually have to be at the keyboard to use it...

Don't be lazy and play the game... That's the point we are making


Yup, if you are fitted for gold-farming you can fit a survey scanner instead of tank and never burn away a roid again

I dont get why/how squeezing the tiny percent is worth dying to some of these people

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#33 - 2014-04-28 09:14:46 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
On paper, ignoring the extra MLU of the retriever, yes.
However like I said, EFT Warriors never get the whole story. You are trying to EFT warrior also by simply looking at stats.
Which only give you the 'perfect world' scenario.

Actual use in space says despite the stats basically matching, the Proc actually doesn't do as well because it doesn't get as close to 'ideal' efficiency as the Retriever does on average.


Again, conveniently you ignore the other advantages over the Ret you get on the Proc

Can you tell me what the "real space" percent you get in a Ret over a Proc actually is?

Say on Arkonor, as that will be in your favour isk-wise

Or actually whatever ore you choose

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Asia Leigh
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-04-28 09:18:39 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Asia Leigh wrote:


Hmm... I heard there was a module for such situations, you know - survey scanners. But yeah again you actually have to be at the keyboard to use it...

Don't be lazy and play the game... That's the point we are making


Yup, if you are fitted for gold-farming you can fit a survey scanner instead of tank and never burn away a roid again

I dont get why/how squeezing the tiny percent is worth dying to some of these people


nah, its not that bad. I still get 51k ehp from a procurer with one of the mid slots fit with a survey scanner. But god forbid if you ask someone to fit a Damage Control II onto their mining barge :D Its amazing how a little less yield and one module will increase your life expectancy mining :D
Apply the damn rules equally >.>
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#35 - 2014-04-28 09:24:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Asia Leigh wrote:


nah, its not that bad. I still get 51k ehp from a procurer with one of the mid slots fit with a survey scanner. But god forbid if you ask someone to fit a Damage Control II onto their mining barge :D Its amazing how a little less yield and one module will increase your life expectancy mining :D



Ah. The ones I have seen wear double Invuls, em ward, shield extender, and lowtank too.

No rigs and all T1 so the loss is absolutely negligable

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#36 - 2014-04-28 09:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
No I can't give you a precise figure for 'real space yield' difference, because it's real space.
You can't sit down and calculate a precise figure that you will always be at.

However empirical testing does give me somewhere around a 5%ish margin using scanner + 2 MLU set ups. If you max yield a retriever for 3 MLU then retriever pulls further ahead. (Given the actual paper difference on a current max yield fit is a Proc mines 91% of the Retrievers yield, assuming ideal situations)
This will obviously vary based on the day, if you get distracted by rats just when you need to be cycling the strips, if you are pre aligning perfectly just as your hold fills, if you are running a fleet with a hauler orca so you can just poop ore out and not have additional time in warp on the proc, etc

But the end reality is, the Retriever as it stands currently does mine a significant amount more. So it's not terrible CEO's telling people to use it. Post Summer, this difference is obviously slightly reduced as there is a time reduction component built into the ship skills, which brings them both closer to ideal situations, but the proc benefits more from that.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#37 - 2014-04-28 09:29:21 UTC
Are you crazy? I cannot unsub my mining alt! She flies big ships I can't, grinds L4s, probes bads for me to gank and soon she will be my linky.

What a utterly stupid idea!

Invalid signature format
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#38 - 2014-04-28 09:36:19 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
No I can't give you a precise figure for 'real space yield' difference, because it's real space.
You can't sit down and calculate a precise figure that you will always be at.

However empirical testing does give me somewhere around a 5%ish margin using scanner + 2 MLU set ups. If you max yield a retriever for 3 MLU then retriever pulls further ahead. (Given the actual paper difference on a current max yield fit is a Proc mines 91% of the Retrievers yield, assuming ideal situations)
This will obviously vary based on the day, if you get distracted by rats just when you need to be cycling the strips, if you are pre aligning perfectly just as your hold fills, if you are running a fleet with a hauler orca so you can just poop ore out and not have additional time in warp on the proc, etc

But the end reality is, the Retriever as it stands currently does mine a significant amount more. So it's not terrible CEO's telling people to use it. Post Summer, this difference is obviously slightly reduced as there is a time reduction component built into the ship skills, which brings them both closer to ideal situations, but the proc benefits more from that.


Ok, now what Im reading is you say that 1 beam operating at the efficency of three compares unfavourably with two beams operating as three by your estimation of 5%.

Assuming ideal circumstances.

You say that the MLU difference is a base 9% in the Ret's favour.

So (not holding that I agree that your real space figure is accurate) you are claiming a 14% advantage over a Proc when untanked.

So given this, what is the difference in Isk over a three hour period, not including ore hold difference (as this is easily circumvented by Hauler alts, Orcas etc) on any one ore type you choose?

(NB: Untanked barges operating solo or in small unsupported fleets are the sign of a bad CEO in my opinion)

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#39 - 2014-04-28 09:42:29 UTC
Amazingly there are a lot of people who don't mine in large groups in this game.
The difference in ISK would be.... Hmmmm, hey, about that 14% mark you calculated. Amazingly a difference in ore translates directly into a difference in ISK income.
And a hauler 'alt' is A: A cost monthly. And B: Halving the income. So unless you are ISBoxing a massive fleet or running large scale ops (Hi Orca I referred to and Hi Covetor that is even better at that point) a dedicated hauler is inefficient.

A tanked barge won't save you in low, it won't save you from a wt and it won't save you from someone who really wants to gank you. All it will save you from is the casual gank for lols. And simply warping off when you see a catalyst or thrasher land on grid is just as good for saving you from the lols most times assuming you don't sit at 0 on the belt warp in.
Dave Stark
#40 - 2014-04-28 09:47:16 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Amazingly there are a lot of people who don't mine in large groups in this game.

and those people are dumb!

the only thing mining has going for it, is the fact that the diminishing returns on +1 miner is so tiny.