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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1921 - 2014-04-21 18:29:57 UTC
Rashnu Gorbani wrote:
I'm really curious what will the outcome be, but for the time being the most profitable would probably be unsubbing the extra accounts I used for industry, there's no way the masses could compete with the power blocks. I guess more $$ into the top RMTers pockets... remember null sec is mostly ruled by pyramids with a couple guys on top.

But enough about BNI.

*rimshot*

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1922 - 2014-04-22 15:47:58 UTC
Querns wrote:
Rashnu Gorbani wrote:
I'm really curious what will the outcome be, but for the time being the most profitable would probably be unsubbing the extra accounts I used for industry, there's no way the masses could compete with the power blocks. I guess more $$ into the top RMTers pockets... remember null sec is mostly ruled by pyramids with a couple guys on top.

But enough about BNI.

*rimshot*


Oh, lord....

Pot and kettle in a tree;
Both including irony.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1923 - 2014-04-22 18:25:24 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Querns wrote:
Rashnu Gorbani wrote:
I'm really curious what will the outcome be, but for the time being the most profitable would probably be unsubbing the extra accounts I used for industry, there's no way the masses could compete with the power blocks. I guess more $$ into the top RMTers pockets... remember null sec is mostly ruled by pyramids with a couple guys on top.

But enough about BNI.

*rimshot*


Oh, lord....

Pot and kettle in a tree;
Both including irony.

Please tell me more about how Goonswarm Federation conducts business.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Aineko Macx
#1924 - 2014-04-23 08:35:45 UTC
@CCP: I strongly suggest you make there only exist one type of compressed ore. Having compressed sub-variants adds a lot of complexity for no added value at all. To still differentiate ore subtypes, simply make them result in different numbers of compressed ore.

i.e. instead of having
Veldspar -> Compressed Veldspar
Dense Veldspar -> Compressed Dense Veldspar
Concentraded Veldspar -> Compressed Concentrated Veldspar

make all Veldspar variants compress to Compressed Veldspar and just scale the output numbers to differentiate.
Losing the slight compression ratio benefit of the denser ores is more than worth it IMO.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1925 - 2014-04-23 08:54:52 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:
@CCP: I strongly suggest you make there only exist one type of compressed ore. Having compressed sub-variants adds a lot of complexity for no added value at all. To still differentiate ore subtypes, simply make them result in different numbers of compressed ore.

i.e. instead of having
Veldspar -> Compressed Veldspar
Dense Veldspar -> Compressed Dense Veldspar
Concentraded Veldspar -> Compressed Concentrated Veldspar

make all Veldspar variants compress to Compressed Veldspar and just scale the output numbers to differentiate.
Losing the slight compression ratio benefit of the denser ores is more than worth it IMO.
To achieve this, each single block of compressed [variant] ore would require a unique ID, in addition to the typeID. This then would remove the possibility to stack them, trade them in the market, and reprocess them. As only packed items allow that. It's far less complex to keep blocks for each variant.
Also, what about the complexity of "damn, I thought that block was made out of dense veldspar. Now I jumped down here, only to find that I lack Tritanium!"

NPEISDRIP

onyu
DU5T
#1926 - 2014-04-24 01:18:12 UTC
You failed to mention that this also amounts to yet another nerf to mission running income, which is already one of the most tedious and slow ways to earn isk.

If its intended, you should say so and give reasons.
If its not intended, you should compensate.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#1927 - 2014-04-24 02:54:35 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:
@CCP: I strongly suggest you make there only exist one type of compressed ore. Having compressed sub-variants adds a lot of complexity for no added value at all. To still differentiate ore subtypes, simply make them result in different numbers of compressed ore.

i.e. instead of having
Veldspar -> Compressed Veldspar
Dense Veldspar -> Compressed Dense Veldspar
Concentraded Veldspar -> Compressed Concentrated Veldspar

make all Veldspar variants compress to Compressed Veldspar and just scale the output numbers to differentiate.
Losing the slight compression ratio benefit of the denser ores is more than worth it IMO.
To achieve this, each single block of compressed [variant] ore would require a unique ID, in addition to the typeID. This then would remove the possibility to stack them, trade them in the market, and reprocess them. As only packed items allow that. It's far less complex to keep blocks for each variant.
Also, what about the complexity of "damn, I thought that block was made out of dense veldspar. Now I jumped down here, only to find that I lack Tritanium!"


Thats not what he wrote,

He is saying
10000xVeldspar -> 100xCompressed Veldspar
10000x Concentraded Veldspar ->105 Compressed Veldspar
10000x Dense Veldspar -> 110 Compressed Veldspar

or whatever the actual density analogue is. Its not that you get compressed veld that is going to refine to 10% less, its that you get more blocks out of the compression.

The problem with this is when you compress only 100 dense veld , the batch size is simply too small to take the 10 % into account in the output, so you'd have to increase the batch of them all or lower the batch size for the 5 and 10's which would be just as weird as it is now,

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Darkblad
Doomheim
#1928 - 2014-04-24 09:29:28 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:
make all Veldspar variants compress to Compressed Veldspar and just scale the output numbers to differentiate.
Thats not what he wrote,

He is saying
10000xVeldspar -> 100xCompressed Veldspar
10000x Concentraded Veldspar ->105 Compressed Veldspar
10000x Dense Veldspar -> 110 Compressed Veldspar

or whatever the actual density analogue is. Its not that you get compressed veld that is going to refine to 10% less, its that you get more blocks out of the compression.

The problem with this is when you compress only 100 dense veld , the batch size is simply too small to take the 10 % into account in the output, so you'd have to increase the batch of them all or lower the batch size for the 5 and 10's which would be just as weird as it is now,
I understood it that way that "scale the output numbers" points to the mineral output once a block gets reprocessed.

Anyway, as you already stated, this approach would require adjustment of ore quantities for each block (above that due to the new mineral quantities being forcibly rounded up to the next full number). For example, take a look at the impact of the 5%/10% Mineral bonus on Zydrine in Jaspet or Hemorphite.

NPEISDRIP

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1929 - 2014-04-24 16:41:10 UTC
Regarding unification of compressed ore types, you could also do it in the opposite direction.

E.g.: (numbers are not based on reality since I can't remember the actual numbers and am too lazy to look it up)
100 veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar
95 concentrated veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar
90 dense veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar

This is a good idea, and if the math makes it feasible, I'd like to see it happen.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Guru7
Templar Knights of EVE
#1930 - 2014-04-24 17:36:12 UTC
I guess there is nothing wrong with most of the changes, but the one that really hurts is that you now only get 55% out of scrapmetal and module reprocessing. (Or did I read that one wrong?)

I do play as a mission runner and I get a fair amount of my revenue by looting the wrecks, reprocessing the loot and manufacturing stuff or selling the minerals. It seems like you are about to cut that income into half. There are several reason why I think that is not a good idea at all:

1. Looting and salvaging have always been some professions new players can do and get some ISK worth their time and they can contribute early to Corporation mission runs, without having to train months to get a suitable combat ship. Cutting revenue into half, makes the effort almost worthless.

2. Since the (at least partially) Incursion-caused inflation, mission running has become far less profitable, we need that revenue we get from looting. Its also much mor satisfying to have a good way to max out profit, by diversifying into multiple Professions: Mission running, looting/salvaging and Industry. And hey, I want to leave my Battlefield nice and clean :)
-oh and btw. its kinda more interesting to do some "martial arts mining" then sitting hours in the cockpit watching mining lasers to melt ore :P

3. I do not know what the impact on the market may be, but there are MANY items just bought, because of their reprocessing value. Most loot items fall into that category, which means Market will be flooded by mostly worthless junk, one doesn't even bother to transport. That may decrease the value of those items further (below the +-50% they are going to be worth anyway) and that is going to cut new and veteran players income again.
Additionally there are the prices for ships and still needed products, which might rise by quite a bit, because the amount of minerals availlable on the market is surely going to drop -or at least demand by indies is going up, cause reprocessing modules isn't worth the time anymore.

4. As some other have already pointed out, looting and salvaging can't be done by bots, so give the players a chance to make some money, will ya?


Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1931 - 2014-04-24 23:32:42 UTC
Querns wrote:
Regarding unification of compressed ore types, you could also do it in the opposite direction.

E.g.: (numbers are not based on reality since I can't remember the actual numbers and am too lazy to look it up)
100 veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar
95 concentrated veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar
90 dense veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar

This is a good idea, and if the math makes it feasible, I'd like to see it happen.

Or you could do it even simpler.
Mining an asteroid of Dense Veld just gives you 10% more yield for the same time. But you get Veld out of the rock. That way there is no such object as Dense Veld to begin with. Only Veld. The tag just reflects a bonus to yield that you get.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#1932 - 2014-04-25 01:37:37 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Querns wrote:
Regarding unification of compressed ore types, you could also do it in the opposite direction.

E.g.: (numbers are not based on reality since I can't remember the actual numbers and am too lazy to look it up)
100 veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar
95 concentrated veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar
90 dense veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar

This is a good idea, and if the math makes it feasible, I'd like to see it happen.

Or you could do it even simpler.
Mining an asteroid of Dense Veld just gives you 10% more yield for the same time. But you get Veld out of the rock. That way there is no such object as Dense Veld to begin with. Only Veld. The tag just reflects a bonus to yield that you get.


this changes more then just refining, as it increases the rate at which ships fill up. Not necessarily a bad thing, just a different thing. It makes the hulk with its smaller ore bay even less attractive to miners over the other exhumers.

this kind of change reinforces the mackinaw superiority.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1933 - 2014-04-25 02:54:41 UTC
Yea well, I don't think many people try to argue that the hulk ore bay is a good state right now. It should equal the Skiff ore bay. And always should have been made equal to create a better spread. CCP just don't want to adjust it to match because it will look like caving into pressure. But the Metrics are very clear on it's use.
Aineko Macx
#1934 - 2014-04-25 05:50:53 UTC
Querns wrote:
Regarding unification of compressed ore types, you could also do it in the opposite direction.

E.g.: (numbers are not based on reality since I can't remember the actual numbers and am too lazy to look it up)
100 veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar
95 concentrated veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar
90 dense veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar

This is a good idea, and if the math makes it feasible, I'd like to see it happen.

Yep, this works just as well.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1935 - 2014-04-25 11:51:29 UTC
Small update!

After sacrificing many Devs to the dark development gods, we are now able to confirm we will have reprocessing skills affect Starbase Reprocessing Arrays - if not for the Summer release, shortly after.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1936 - 2014-04-25 13:10:31 UTC
Querns wrote:
Regarding unification of compressed ore types, you could also do it in the opposite direction.

E.g.: (numbers are not based on reality since I can't remember the actual numbers and am too lazy to look it up)
100 veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar
95 concentrated veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar
90 dense veldspar = 1 compressed veldspar

This is a good idea, and if the math makes it feasible, I'd like to see it happen.

oh god please do this

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1937 - 2014-04-25 13:13:25 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Small update!

After sacrificing many Devs to the dark development gods, we are now able to confirm we will have reprocessing skills affect Starbase Reprocessing Arrays - if not for the Summer release, shortly after.

thats awesome, thanks!

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1938 - 2014-04-25 13:44:27 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Small update!

After sacrificing many Devs to the dark development gods, we are now able to confirm we will have reprocessing skills affect Starbase Reprocessing Arrays - if not for the Summer release, shortly after.



Great :)
Drone 16
Holy Horde
#1939 - 2014-04-25 15:04:14 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Small update!

After sacrificing many Devs to the dark development gods, we are now able to confirm we will have reprocessing skills affect Starbase Reprocessing Arrays - if not for the Summer release, shortly after.


I'm hoping that there is some thought given to making Starbase Reprocessing Arrays work at a better efficiency in WH space. If we are still framing this discussion around risk/reward it doesn't make sense that WH space not refine at least equally (f not better) than Null sec.

It is still about risk/reward, right?

It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1940 - 2014-04-25 15:16:41 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Small update!

After sacrificing many Devs to the dark development gods, we are now able to confirm we will have reprocessing skills affect Starbase Reprocessing Arrays - if not for the Summer release, shortly after.


This is awesome!