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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#1001 - 2014-04-16 18:59:57 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Daenika wrote:
AWESOME.

Now can you guys add the atrocious PI interface to the list of industry UI's that need changed?


Oh god I hope that's not this expansion, I just spent a week recording a tutorial about PI in it's current form Lol


Ouch, pity you there. The current interface is freakin terrible...
Killian Redbeard
Ironhand Research and Industrial Corp
#1002 - 2014-04-16 19:03:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Weaselior wrote:
Allison A'vani wrote:
Why are you adding cost scaling onto POSes? You already pay for fuel. There is literally zero lore or other fantasized reason to put cost scaling on POSes. I OWN THE POS and I OWN THE ASSEMBLY ARRAY.

the reason to put cost scaling on a pos is because otherwise i would replace the eight component assembly arrays on my pos with a single one because slots are now infinite

so you make it so that it's basically free if i install ten jobs but ramps up after that, if it's done right having two assembly arrays will mean that i can install basically 20 free jobs, etc etc

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


Why change the POS modules to have infinite number like the NPC stations? The Arrays have a set powergrid and CPU usage on the Tower. These should not be able to run infinite jobs even at scaling costs.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1003 - 2014-04-16 19:04:36 UTC
Killian Redbeard wrote:

Why change the POS modules to have infinite number like the NPC stations? The Arrays have a set powergrid and CPU usage on the Tower. These should not be able to run infinite jobs even at scaling costs.

because you're abolishing the entire concept of slots so you have the same system everywhere instead of a stupid and archaic system on pos

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Killian Redbeard
Ironhand Research and Industrial Corp
#1004 - 2014-04-16 19:10:39 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Killian Redbeard wrote:

Why change the POS modules to have infinite number like the NPC stations? The Arrays have a set powergrid and CPU usage on the Tower. These should not be able to run infinite jobs even at scaling costs.

because you're abolishing the entire concept of slots so you have the same system everywhere instead of a stupid and archaic system on pos


If we getting rid of slots are we getting rid of the specialized arrays and lab pos modules also? I only need 1 lab for ME/PE/Copying/Inventoion/ RE and I should only need 1 array to manufacturing anything I want since I have infinite jobs available.
Minerva Arbosa
Spatial Forces
Warped Intentions
#1005 - 2014-04-16 19:12:57 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Garth of Izar wrote:
how does this effect locked down BPOs? Can't lock down at a POS AFAIK


Yes, we had a look at that as well. Allowing people to lock blueprints down in Starbases with current vote / lock mechanics would not be a good idea, so it won't be possible for now.


Thanks for inventing another way a person has the potential to steal from a corp. Glad you are creating more environments for griefers to play rather than true industrialists to have better facilities. Also, you all going to re-write the POS code anytime soon, knowing how screwed up that stuff is for permissions? Honestly, I would rather see that going on than you all adding more way for griefers and thieves to harass industrial corporations.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#1006 - 2014-04-16 19:16:31 UTC
Minerva Arbosa wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Garth of Izar wrote:
how does this effect locked down BPOs? Can't lock down at a POS AFAIK


Yes, we had a look at that as well. Allowing people to lock blueprints down in Starbases with current vote / lock mechanics would not be a good idea, so it won't be possible for now.


Thanks for inventing another way a person has the potential to steal from a corp. Glad you are creating more environments for griefers to play rather than true industrialists to have better facilities. Also, you all going to re-write the POS code anytime soon, knowing how screwed up that stuff is for permissions? Honestly, I would rather see that going on than you all adding more way for griefers and thieves to harass industrial corporations.


Make an alt corp, Drop your POS, give only permissions to yourself for it, No having to worry about Awoxers. This is one area that One member Corps come in handy.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1007 - 2014-04-16 19:17:50 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
However people should still keep in mind that any changes to copy times will benefit the inventor far, far more than the T2 BPO owner.

This is not true. Copying is not the invention bottleneck.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1008 - 2014-04-16 19:20:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Weaselior wrote:
Allison A'vani wrote:
Why are you adding cost scaling onto POSes? You already pay for fuel. There is literally zero lore or other fantasized reason to put cost scaling on POSes. I OWN THE POS and I OWN THE ASSEMBLY ARRAY.

the reason to put cost scaling on a pos is because otherwise i would replace the eight component assembly arrays on my pos with a single one because slots are now infinite

so you make it so that it's basically free if i install ten jobs but ramps up after that, if it's done right having two assembly arrays will mean that i can install basically 20 free jobs, etc etc

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


You are also working on speculation. My concerns are completely justified. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
. We have zero idea about how they are doing the scaling, because they haven't posted it yet. If I have to pay a base 1k install +333isk/hour fee at a POS that then scales up from there, then I no longer have any reason to use a POS at all.*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
you would see that the only base cost established in the game is the one I just mentioned. Furthermore, the way that the devs have presented their seeming hatred for POS production and industry based on the changes they have presented, it would seem to me that my fears are not ungrounded.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1009 - 2014-04-16 19:20:45 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
However people should still keep in mind that any changes to copy times will benefit the inventor far, far more than the T2 BPO owner.

This is not true. Copying is not the invention bottleneck.

Why do people comment with no experience. It all depends on the item what the bottleneck is. With certain items copying is the bottleneck, although for a lot of items it is invention or manufacturing which is the bottleneck.
Killian Redbeard
Ironhand Research and Industrial Corp
#1010 - 2014-04-16 19:22:46 UTC
Minerva Arbosa wrote:

Thanks for inventing another way a person has the potential to steal from a corp. Glad you are creating more environments for griefers to play rather than true industrialists to have better facilities. Also, you all going to re-write the POS code anytime soon, knowing how screwed up that stuff is for permissions? Honestly, I would rather see that going on than you all adding more way for griefers and thieves to harass industrial corporations.


If you do all the researching, copying and invention at the NPC station you never have to put the BPO at the POS. You can just use the POS for Manufacturing and Refining.
Circumstantial Evidence
#1011 - 2014-04-16 19:24:25 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
When this is all done, sov null sec will be better than high sec in every single way.
Better anoms, better rats, better ice, better rocks, better refining, and now, better industry efficiency.
Is this supposed to be a surprising statement? Nice advertisement for heading to Nullsec. This is what the EVE box has said since day one: null is supposed to have the best resources in the game... stuff worth fighting over... "inspire" battles and market demand for all the stuff we can make and sell. If players are not up to the very hard job of organizing a force to unseat an existing nullsec power, some decide its worth paying a "rental fee" to a sov-holder for access to that better stuff. Null is where the "end game" content is. You can't play SuperCaps Online(tm) in highsec.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1012 - 2014-04-16 19:31:21 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
When this is all done, sov null sec will be better than high sec in every single way.
Better anoms, better rats, better ice, better rocks, better refining, and now, better industry efficiency.
Is this supposed to be a surprising statement? Nice advertisement for heading to Nullsec. This is what the EVE box has said since day one: null is supposed to have the best resources in the game... stuff worth fighting over... "inspire" battles and market demand for all the stuff we can make and sell. If players are not up to the very hard job of organizing a force to unseat an existing nullsec power, some decide its worth paying a "rental fee" to a sov-holder for access to that better stuff. Null is where the "end game" content is. You can't play SuperCaps Online(tm) in highsec.


Wrong. One of the dev's, I can't remember now, likely one of the ones let go, said quite explicitly that Eve was NEVER about enshrining a system where one area of the game was completely independent of another.

With these changes, and the coming dev blogs, null sec will have zero use for high sec, other than for griefing targets.
As I said, the only thing null sec will lack is the critical mass of players to actually build decent trade hubs, and the CSM has clearly designed these changes with that very thought in mind, and doing everything possible to drive as many people as possible into the loving arms of the null sec cartels.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1013 - 2014-04-16 19:39:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Allison A'vani wrote:
You are also working on speculation. My concerns are completely justified. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
. We have zero idea about how they are doing the scaling, because they haven't posted it yet. If I have to pay a base 1k install +333isk/hour fee at a POS that then scales up from there, then I no longer have any reason to use a POS at all.*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
you would see that the only base cost established in the game is the one I just mentioned. Furthermore, the way that the devs have presented their seeming hatred for POS production and industry based on the changes they have presented, it would seem to me that my fears are not ungrounded..

my speculation is based on incredibly solid incredibly simple inferences *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

if you actually think that 1k install +333 isk /hour (which, assuming that you installed ten jobs a day (a crazy number) and used the pos nonstop and used ten slots per build character, you would have a total tax of 5.3m per build character per month, or "like an eighth of normal fuel price variation per month" is enough that you'd have no reason to use a pos,
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Daggaroth
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1014 - 2014-04-16 19:43:23 UTC
A question for clarification:

the scaling costs to build things in the same system? will that only be manufacturing costs? I.E if it costs 1,000,000 ISK to put something into a manufacturing slot, when it hits the max scale it will cost. 1,140,000 ? or will it scale by 14% each time after a certain point to where if you are manufacturing at your limit you could be spending 10 + million? or will the cost of the actual item determine the cost? so if you are building a capital ship that costs 1 billion ISK, will the build cost be 140,000,000 ISK?

Comment on this aspect:

I am quite concerned that this is going to kill the capital ship manufacturing aspects for anyone but large alliances. As it stands, it is quite difficult to make even a 10% profit margin building capital ships when purchasing resources off empire markets. if capital ships are going to cost 9 digits to build , not even counting the costs of materials, and transportation of resources into dangerous space, they will become quite difficult, if not impossible, to make a profit on for anyone but people in large alliances who have access to quieter systems and reduced costs minerals.



Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1015 - 2014-04-16 19:46:50 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Allison A'vani wrote:
Why are you adding cost scaling onto POSes? You already pay for fuel. There is literally zero lore or other fantasized reason to put cost scaling on POSes. I OWN THE POS and I OWN THE ASSEMBLY ARRAY.

the reason to put cost scaling on a pos is because otherwise i would replace the eight component assembly arrays on my pos with a single one because slots are now infinite

so you make it so that it's basically free if i install ten jobs but ramps up after that, if it's done right having two assembly arrays will mean that i can install basically 20 free jobs, etc etc

like seriously people use some brains here

Have fuel use scale with active slots.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Minerva Arbosa
Spatial Forces
Warped Intentions
#1016 - 2014-04-16 19:51:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Slappy Andven wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Xaniff wrote:

2. I predict there will be even more abandoned POSes out hogging all the spaces next to the moons. There needs to be some mechanic for these to be abandoned and destroyed in a reasonable amount of time after running out of fuel and failing to be maintained (like the secure containers that are lost, whether they hold goods or not).


Yeah, that's a good point, we'll note that one down.


I get the horrible sensation that you think these changes are all good and positive. They are not. The reaction from industrialists that lead to all those abandoned towers will have serious negative effects on the market as well. What will you do when those of us who build things decide it's not worth it anymore and decide to say screw it, we're not building things? Will you just start seeding the market like on Singularity? These changes seem focused on driving up risk for poor return on the reward side. The inability to lock down and safeguard blueprints in a corporate hangar in a station means one thing, and one thing only: You're taking assets that we have spent years and years building, and giving us complete crap in return. Why even bother playing the game with changes like this?


We're not removing the ability to lock down blueprints in your station. You can still lock down as before and build, research and copy using the infinite slots in the station.


Yes, but now you are forcing those of us who have particularly liked building a POS in remote systems where there was no research station to pick up and move all of our blueprints to some random research station, and pay for slots rather than us paying for fuel blocks every month? I would rather pay my 400m / mo. in fuel blocks, and be able to remotely research my BPOs at the POS even though it can take a long time to do it, than have to find a research station near me, then unlock all my blueprints, transport them through lowsec and highsec, then re-lock down all of my BPOs, then pay for researching them all. It just doesn't make any sense why this was being changed in the first place.
SoHo White
Etoilles Mortant Ltd.
Solyaris Chtonium
#1017 - 2014-04-16 19:54:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Slappy Andven wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Xaniff wrote:

2. I predict there will be even more abandoned POSes out hogging all the spaces next to the moons. There needs to be some mechanic for these to be abandoned and destroyed in a reasonable amount of time after running out of fuel and failing to be maintained (like the secure containers that are lost, whether they hold goods or not).


Yeah, that's a good point, we'll note that one down.


I get the horrible sensation that you think these changes are all good and positive. They are not. The reaction from industrialists that lead to all those abandoned towers will have serious negative effects on the market as well. What will you do when those of us who build things decide it's not worth it anymore and decide to say screw it, we're not building things? Will you just start seeding the market like on Singularity? These changes seem focused on driving up risk for poor return on the reward side. The inability to lock down and safeguard blueprints in a corporate hangar in a station means one thing, and one thing only: You're taking assets that we have spent years and years building, and giving us complete crap in return. Why even bother playing the game with changes like this?


We're not removing the ability to lock down blueprints in your station. You can still lock down as before and build, research and copy using the infinite slots in the station.




I think I may just stop industry, after doing it fot the last 8 years. CCP you are moving the goalposts too far.

I'm all for updating Industry, some of the changes you are proposing are well thought out, others need more work and a few just need to be binned !

You are up to 50+ pages of comments on this one topic in just over a day. Are we all singing and dancing and saying how wonderful the changes are ? Perhaps you need a better consultation period when thinking about changes to the game, at the moment too many of these comments (I have read all 50+ pages, have you ?) are not happy with what you are proposing.

If you had previous asked me (you didn't), I would have made these 2 comments


  1. Continue to allow locked BPO's to be used from stations, perhaps adding a charge for the privilege.

  2. The POS interface/management should be updated prior to industry changes, the interface is too cumbersome to cope with the added complexity you are suggesting with these industry changes.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1018 - 2014-04-16 19:58:39 UTC
SoHo White wrote:

The POS interface/management should be updated prior to industry changes, the interface is too cumbersome to cope with the added complexity you are suggesting with these industry changes.
the next blog in the like is about the changes to the industry UI with will becoming alongside this. As such until we see that blog it's kinda pointless to complain. what we do know is that it will be changing so any complaint based on it's current form will likely be irrelevant.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1019 - 2014-04-16 19:58:55 UTC
Minerva Arbosa wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Slappy Andven wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Xaniff wrote:

2. I predict there will be even more abandoned POSes out hogging all the spaces next to the moons. There needs to be some mechanic for these to be abandoned and destroyed in a reasonable amount of time after running out of fuel and failing to be maintained (like the secure containers that are lost, whether they hold goods or not).


Yeah, that's a good point, we'll note that one down.


I get the horrible sensation that you think these changes are all good and positive. They are not. The reaction from industrialists that lead to all those abandoned towers will have serious negative effects on the market as well. What will you do when those of us who build things decide it's not worth it anymore and decide to say screw it, we're not building things? Will you just start seeding the market like on Singularity? These changes seem focused on driving up risk for poor return on the reward side. The inability to lock down and safeguard blueprints in a corporate hangar in a station means one thing, and one thing only: You're taking assets that we have spent years and years building, and giving us complete crap in return. Why even bother playing the game with changes like this?


We're not removing the ability to lock down blueprints in your station. You can still lock down as before and build, research and copy using the infinite slots in the station.


Yes, but now you are forcing those of us who have particularly liked building a POS in remote systems where there was no research station to pick up and move all of our blueprints to some random research station, and pay for slots rather than us paying for fuel blocks every month? I would rather pay my 400m / mo. in fuel blocks, and be able to remotely research my BPOs at the POS even though it can take a long time to do it, than have to find a research station near me, then unlock all my blueprints, transport them through lowsec and highsec, then re-lock down all of my BPOs, then pay for researching them all. It just doesn't make any sense why this was being changed in the first place.


Yup, like I said.

You can choose to paint a huge bullseye on your corp by having research mods on your POS, and STILL pay more than you today, or you can uproot everything, set up shop like everyone else in a system with infinite research slots, and pay a huge huge premium on that.

Awesome choices, just awesome. I am sure that fully vertically integrated industrial corps that mined, invented, and built all within the same system, or at most a 2 system jump, will be absolutely thrilled with these changes.
industrial foreman
Doomheim
#1020 - 2014-04-16 20:04:44 UTC
What are the chances everyone says F it and just builds in Jita 4-4 and pushes the 14% cost onto the items?