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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#521 - 2014-04-15 20:56:46 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Having just caught up I'd like to point out that the idea of congestion charges for my laboratories on my POS which I pay the fuel for is fuxking idiotic. Exactly to whom am I paying these fees - me? It's my POS.

So you think you shouldn't have to pay someone for doing industry in orbit above someone else's planet... in someone else's space? Smile


The same people you no longer need standings to? Are you kidding me?

Thead Enco
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#522 - 2014-04-15 20:57:04 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
gifter Penken wrote:
Sad MonkeySpanker wrote:
gifter Penken wrote:

...
The new "scale price to usage" price mechanism for slots is likely going ito make copy slots prohibitively expensive. The alt corp with large POS is going to be the cheaper alternative.


They did mention Risk-Reward....



Except there is no real risk. A heavily hardened large high sec POS is virtually bullet proof.

It isn't risk, it is the hassle of having to set up the alt corp, set up and run the POS, crank out all the BPCs.

All hassle, virtually no risk, a little reward.... a little extra demand and profit for ice miners.


Whomever told you that a hardened high sec POS is bulletproof was lying. Even if it fits some turrets and lots of EW, undefended it is a sitting duck, going down in a few hours.

Think Long range sentry drones from 2 moderate groups of bonus-ed battleships. Large shield buffers and maybe a few logistics to top it off and go watch a movie. POS defenses will never on their own attack the drones, so it is just a matter of time before an attacker wins. Such a fleet would even be able to defend itself against a few active defenders quite well due to the range the groups can cover each other!



What if CCP made it possible to launch bombs in empire.........
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#523 - 2014-04-15 20:57:42 UTC
Eleisa Joringer wrote:
So basically anyone with a handful of skill points can now set up a pos in HS. i can see one million of 1 member corps having poses soon.
Alt age !


Why though? The entire reason for the POS restriction in high sec to be lifted is because they are going to be much less needed as research platforms. So if anything, I think a lot of people will be taking down their POS because 2 month long waiting lines in stations are going to be a thing of the past.

Now the challenge of effeciency is no longer to have a POS, but to find the most cost efficient station to do research at. Are you going to take that expensive station 1 jump away, or are you going to move your operation to that cheap station 16 jumps away and have a bigger profit margin?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#524 - 2014-04-15 20:57:53 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Having just caught up I'd like to point out that the idea of congestion charges for my laboratories on my POS which I pay the fuel for is fuxking idiotic. Exactly to whom am I paying these fees - me? It's my POS.

So you think you shouldn't have to pay someone for doing industry in orbit above someone else's planet... in someone else's space? Smile

The same people you no longer need standings to? Are you kidding me?

Weeell… look at it this way: you no longer have to prove your loyalty to the empire — cash will do just as fine. P
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#525 - 2014-04-15 21:00:44 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Having just caught up I'd like to point out that the idea of congestion charges for my laboratories on my POS which I pay the fuel for is fuxking idiotic. Exactly to whom am I paying these fees - me? It's my POS.

So you think you shouldn't have to pay someone for doing industry in orbit above someone else's planet... in someone else's space? Smile


The same people you no longer need standings to? Are you kidding me?


There is no law that says the land lord has to like you to take your money for rent. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#526 - 2014-04-15 21:01:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Having just caught up I'd like to point out that the idea of congestion charges for my laboratories on my POS which I pay the fuel for is fuxking idiotic. Exactly to whom am I paying these fees - me? It's my POS.

So you think you shouldn't have to pay someone for doing industry in orbit above someone else's planet... in someone else's space? Smile

The same people you no longer need standings to? Are you kidding me?

Weeell… look at it this way: you no longer have to prove your loyalty to the empire — cash will do just as fine. P


I actually typed

"The same people you no longer need standings to? Are you kidding me? So they deregulate the space and then charge you instead?"

and realised how absolutely logical that is, so deleted the second sentence and hoped no-one would notice.

I should have realised. Tippia is always right.

That said there are people who are going to be so hurt by these changes. I just hope the later dev blogs do something to fix that.
Eleisa Joringer
Les chips electriques
#527 - 2014-04-15 21:05:05 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Eleisa Joringer wrote:
So basically anyone with a handful of skill points can now set up a pos in HS. i can see one million of 1 member corps having poses soon.
Alt age !


Why though? The entire reason for the POS restriction in high sec to be lifted is because they are going to be much less needed as research platforms. So if anything, I think a lot of people will be taking down their POS because 2 month long waiting lines in stations are going to be a thing of the past.

Now the challenge of effeciency is no longer to have a POS, but to find the most cost efficient station to do research at. Are you going to take that expensive station 1 jump away, or are you going to move your operation to that cheap station 16 jumps away and have a bigger profit margin?


you sir, have a good point.
But i was talking about "camping spots " at moons . if someone camp your moon you would wardek them . but after the patch, they could umanchor the pos , give it to a mewly created alt in its own corp.

gifter Penken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#528 - 2014-04-15 21:06:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Now it appears you are just being contrary.
No, I'm just not accepting your notion that the production capability of BPO holders somehow affects the production capability of inventors, seeing as how they are not in any way related. I'm also not buying the notion that the inventors' prices will be affected in any major way since the production increase from the BPOs amounts to market noise compared to how much inventors produce.

Quote:
The issue is obviously not how much can be produced, but rather how much will be produced, and sold.
Maybe so, but that's not what you said. And again, BPOs aren't particularly significant to the supply of anything where invention is profitable. It'll be lost in the noise of inventors changing their item production from one cycle to the next.



I think, perhaps, you have the cart before the horse.

Invention is profitable, where demand exceeds T2 BPO supply.

If you increaseT2 BPO supply by reducing copy time to below current manufacture time, you increase T2 BPO supply, This reduces the number of items where BPO supply is insufficent to meet demand, reducing the items that will be profitable to invent.

The profitability of being a T2 BPO holder comes when the demand exceeds T2 BPO supply. If you are simply battling other T2 BPO holders to meet demand, and you have no competative advantage over those T2 BPO holders, profits will be slim.

When demand exceeds T2 BPO supply, it becomes the invented supply that sets the price. Because a portion of the supply is being provided by invention, and invented items are so much more expensive to produce (because of invention cost and low ME) than T2 BPO, profit is much higher for T2 BPO holders.

So, while it may at first appear that increasing the supply of T2 items that can be produce via T2 BPO would increase profitability of those T2 BPOs... it is not necessarily the case. Some T2 items will still have demand that exceeds supply that can be met by T2 BPOs and those will become more profitable. Other are likely to shift from invention being the price point, to BPO being the price point, and profit on those could decline.

Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#529 - 2014-04-15 21:08:29 UTC
Adellle Nadair wrote:
Quote:
Remove the ability for players to use stations to safely store their blueprints without putting them at risk in Starbase structures. Players will still be able to start their jobs remotely (via the use of Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking skills), but will now have to move their blueprints directly into the starbase structures that require it, like other materials.


This is the worst single idea I have ever seen from a dev. DO NOT DO THIS CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!

We already risk a large amount of isk in just having the labs/datacores/decryptors and all of the copies needed out at a pos. Forcing us to either risk a huge amount more than that, or move the bpos to other much more populated stations that are already overpopulated (that don't have corp offices available or available for anywhere near a reasonable price) and incur a high cost that will greatly reduce production profit or negate it all together, is a horrible change. You as devs do not understand the amount of bpos required to make copies for t2 invention. And you clearly don't understand the organization and the necessity of being able to efficiently access bpos and the time commitment that industry already takes. It is incredibly shortsighted and ignorant of you to assume that it is only a slight amount of isk that we will be risking. We use and need easy access to hundreds of bpos to make the copies we need to be able to do invention. Asking us to risk multiple billions in bpos is insane. And no, I know I don't have to keep all of the bpos I am not using at the pos. However, the addition of moving around the needed bpos from the station to the pos adds an additional step and organizational nightmare to an already complicated system. Because of the nature of industry NOTHING you do with the UI and other new features will change this.

This change will also create an additional hassle organizational nightmare for players who need to find or move bpos around. Industry is already complicated enough without having to deal with moving all of the bpos around. DO NOT take away our ability to organize bpos in one central station corp office so multiple characters can easily have access to them and can quickly and efficiently install jobs. DO NOT make us do more work and take more time to do industry jobs.

Another severely overlooked issue that this creates: This removes the ability of safely sharing bpos by locking them down in corp hanger in a station. BPOs can't be locked down at a pos. This change will limit how and where we can play severely. It forces people who want to play together to use certain systems and certain stations, to pay for spots at those stations and it practically makes setting up a pos a waste of time and effort, because it limits its usefulness. In the culture of eve (griefers/corp thieves/all) this change removes several much needed elements of safety that allow us to enjoy playing and interacting with a larger player base.

If you have decided to do this, as is suggested by other statements in this dev blog, because you haven't worked out how to deal how the slot change affects pos mods, then DO NOT make this change until you come up with a better solution. Because this is NOT the way to make this change happen.

POSes are expensive, take time, effort and a good amount of isk to maintain already. Forcing us to risk a considerable amount more and in doing so increase the amount of busy work that is required for doing industry is not a good change.

I personally have been playing Eve for 5 and a half years. Industry is one part of the game that I greatly enjoy doing. If this change does go through I will have to seriously consider if it is worth it to keep paying for my 4 accounts. Many of my friends who like this element of the game are already talking about leaving because of this. I sincerely hope that you will not go through with this change and that the other forthcoming industry changes are much more intelligently and thoughtfully crafted than this. If not, you will be losing a large group of your paying customers.


This. I'm not planning to quit but if this change goes through you can bet your ass you will be shutting down most of the REAL industry corporations with REAL members as well as mass producers as the risk and effort will no longer be worth it.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Buzz Dura
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#530 - 2014-04-15 21:09:40 UTC
That is a hell of a DEVBLOG !!!!!!!!

A lot of good promises, a lot of questions raised but ....


WHERE ARE THE SPREADSHEETS !!???QuestionAttentionQuestionAttentionLolLol


Changes in copy time? how much -5% -20% ? new advanced skill reducing copy time ?

Removing the safety of remote job in POS with locked BPO in station .. well capital construction just became a hell of a choice...
Just to manufacture a freighter, you put at risk 10x the value of it with BPO in POS...
And Capital BPC with its 5 run limit is just zombie click fest...


ArrowArrow Clearly, a big part of eve universe is now hungry of what going to be next !

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#531 - 2014-04-15 21:13:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Buzz Dura wrote:
Changes in copy time? how much -5% -20% ? new advanced skill reducing copy time ?
Oh god NOOOOooo0000ooo… I was going to be finished training this character in June. Cry

gifter Penken wrote:
If you increaseT2 BPO supply by reducing copy time to below current manufacture time, you increase T2 BPO supply, This reduces the number of items where BPO supply is insufficent to meet demand, reducing the items that will be profitable to invent.

The profitability of being a T2 BPO holder comes when the demand exceeds T2 BPO supply. If you are simply battling other T2 BPO holders to meet demand, and you have no competative advantage over those T2 BPO holders, profits will be slim.
The items where this change would significantly alter which party can meet the demand, inventors are already a non-factor due to the ridiculously low volume. So the number of items where BPO supply is inefficient will remain completely constant.

At most, they can now just skip the parts where BPO supply is the only supply, sell copies and let the (non)inventors duke it out rather than having to commit their own assets to the process, and as others have pointed out, that's not a very likely scenario either.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#532 - 2014-04-15 21:14:47 UTC
gifter Penken wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Now it appears you are just being contrary.
No, I'm just not accepting your notion that the production capability of BPO holders somehow affects the production capability of inventors, seeing as how they are not in any way related. I'm also not buying the notion that the inventors' prices will be affected in any major way since the production increase from the BPOs amounts to market noise compared to how much inventors produce.

Quote:
The issue is obviously not how much can be produced, but rather how much will be produced, and sold.
Maybe so, but that's not what you said. And again, BPOs aren't particularly significant to the supply of anything where invention is profitable. It'll be lost in the noise of inventors changing their item production from one cycle to the next.



I think, perhaps, you have the cart before the horse.

Invention is profitable, where demand exceeds T2 BPO supply.

If you increaseT2 BPO supply by reducing copy time to below current manufacture time, you increase T2 BPO supply, This reduces the number of items where BPO supply is insufficent to meet demand, reducing the items that will be profitable to invent.

The profitability of being a T2 BPO holder comes when the demand exceeds T2 BPO supply. If you are simply battling other T2 BPO holders to meet demand, and you have no competative advantage over those T2 BPO holders, profits will be slim.

When demand exceeds T2 BPO supply, it becomes the invented supply that sets the price. Because a portion of the supply is being provided by invention, and invented items are so much more expensive to produce (because of invention cost and low ME) than T2 BPO, profit is much higher for T2 BPO holders.

So, while it may at first appear that increasing the supply of T2 items that can be produce via T2 BPO would increase profitability of those T2 BPOs... it is not necessarily the case. Some T2 items will still have demand that exceeds supply that can be met by T2 BPOs and those will become more profitable. Other are likely to shift from invention being the price point, to BPO being the price point, and profit on those could decline.


You need to consider the extremely limited output supplied by T2 BPO's. For example, a well researched T2 cruiser BPO can build about 1 ship a day.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Halia Thorak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#533 - 2014-04-15 21:14:50 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Adellle Nadair wrote:
Quote:
Remove the ability for players to use stations to safely store their blueprints without putting them at risk in Starbase structures. Players will still be able to start their jobs remotely (via the use of Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking skills), but will now have to move their blueprints directly into the starbase structures that require it, like other materials.


This is the worst single idea I have ever seen from a dev. DO NOT DO THIS CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!

We already risk a large amount of isk in just having the labs/datacores/decryptors and all of the copies needed out at a pos. Forcing us to either risk a huge amount more than that, or move the bpos to other much more populated stations that are already overpopulated (that don't have corp offices available or available for anywhere near a reasonable price) and incur a high cost that will greatly reduce production profit or negate it all together, is a horrible change. You as devs do not understand the amount of bpos required to make copies for t2 invention. And you clearly don't understand the organization and the necessity of being able to efficiently access bpos and the time commitment that industry already takes. It is incredibly shortsighted and ignorant of you to assume that it is only a slight amount of isk that we will be risking. We use and need easy access to hundreds of bpos to make the copies we need to be able to do invention. Asking us to risk multiple billions in bpos is insane. And no, I know I don't have to keep all of the bpos I am not using at the pos. However, the addition of moving around the needed bpos from the station to the pos adds an additional step and organizational nightmare to an already complicated system. Because of the nature of industry NOTHING you do with the UI and other new features will change this.

This change will also create an additional hassle organizational nightmare for players who need to find or move bpos around. Industry is already complicated enough without having to deal with moving all of the bpos around. DO NOT take away our ability to organize bpos in one central station corp office so multiple characters can easily have access to them and can quickly and efficiently install jobs. DO NOT make us do more work and take more time to do industry jobs.

Another severely overlooked issue that this creates: This removes the ability of safely sharing bpos by locking them down in corp hanger in a station. BPOs can't be locked down at a pos. This change will limit how and where we can play severely. It forces people who want to play together to use certain systems and certain stations, to pay for spots at those stations and it practically makes setting up a pos a waste of time and effort, because it limits its usefulness. In the culture of eve (griefers/corp thieves/all) this change removes several much needed elements of safety that allow us to enjoy playing and interacting with a larger player base.

If you have decided to do this, as is suggested by other statements in this dev blog, because you haven't worked out how to deal how the slot change affects pos mods, then DO NOT make this change until you come up with a better solution. Because this is NOT the way to make this change happen.

POSes are expensive, take time, effort and a good amount of isk to maintain already. Forcing us to risk a considerable amount more and in doing so increase the amount of busy work that is required for doing industry is not a good change.

I personally have been playing Eve for 5 and a half years. Industry is one part of the game that I greatly enjoy doing. If this change does go through I will have to seriously consider if it is worth it to keep paying for my 4 accounts. Many of my friends who like this element of the game are already talking about leaving because of this. I sincerely hope that you will not go through with this change and that the other forthcoming industry changes are much more intelligently and thoughtfully crafted than this. If not, you will be losing a large group of your paying customers.


This. I'm not planning to quit but if this change goes through you can bet your ass you will be shutting down most of the REAL industry corporations with REAL members as well as mass producers as the risk and effort will no longer be worth it.


I have to agree if the profits dive as much as they will with this change, I can see a lot of the long time producers shutting shops as their isk/hour vs invested time will just plummet to a figure not worth their time.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#534 - 2014-04-15 21:17:19 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Having just caught up I'd like to point out that the idea of congestion charges for my laboratories on my POS which I pay the fuel for is fuxking idiotic. Exactly to whom am I paying these fees - me? It's my POS.

What benefits you more?

• Having, say, 30 slots per tower so you constantly have to keep 3 of them up just because there are occasional periods where you need 90 slots in total, or…
• Having, say 1 tower that you can keep running constantly, where there is no maximum number of slots and where you can squeeze in all 90 jobs at once when you need to for a slight fee, but where your regular 30 jobs won't really cost anything?


The annoying part about posting with you is that in every other thread I read with you in I say "Tippia is so right."

I've literally been doing that for years.


Maybe you have been wrong in your beliefs for years?

Tippia is a posting machine made to self promote as The Prophet of Being Right. Of course (s)he chooses obvious arguments, usually agrees with the established groupthink (because doing so, won't go against smart and powerful opponents) and generally with the currently winning train of thought.

You have been used.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#535 - 2014-04-15 21:17:52 UTC
Halia Thorak wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Adellle Nadair wrote:
Quote:
Remove the ability for players to use stations to safely store their blueprints without putting them at risk in Starbase structures. Players will still be able to start their jobs remotely (via the use of Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking skills), but will now have to move their blueprints directly into the starbase structures that require it, like other materials.


This is the worst single idea I have ever seen from a dev. DO NOT DO THIS CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!

We already risk a large amount of isk in just having the labs/datacores/decryptors and all of the copies needed out at a pos. Forcing us to either risk a huge amount more than that, or move the bpos to other much more populated stations that are already overpopulated (that don't have corp offices available or available for anywhere near a reasonable price) and incur a high cost that will greatly reduce production profit or negate it all together, is a horrible change. You as devs do not understand the amount of bpos required to make copies for t2 invention. And you clearly don't understand the organization and the necessity of being able to efficiently access bpos and the time commitment that industry already takes. It is incredibly shortsighted and ignorant of you to assume that it is only a slight amount of isk that we will be risking. We use and need easy access to hundreds of bpos to make the copies we need to be able to do invention. Asking us to risk multiple billions in bpos is insane. And no, I know I don't have to keep all of the bpos I am not using at the pos. However, the addition of moving around the needed bpos from the station to the pos adds an additional step and organizational nightmare to an already complicated system. Because of the nature of industry NOTHING you do with the UI and other new features will change this.

This change will also create an additional hassle organizational nightmare for players who need to find or move bpos around. Industry is already complicated enough without having to deal with moving all of the bpos around. DO NOT take away our ability to organize bpos in one central station corp office so multiple characters can easily have access to them and can quickly and efficiently install jobs. DO NOT make us do more work and take more time to do industry jobs.

Another severely overlooked issue that this creates: This removes the ability of safely sharing bpos by locking them down in corp hanger in a station. BPOs can't be locked down at a pos. This change will limit how and where we can play severely. It forces people who want to play together to use certain systems and certain stations, to pay for spots at those stations and it practically makes setting up a pos a waste of time and effort, because it limits its usefulness. In the culture of eve (griefers/corp thieves/all) this change removes several much needed elements of safety that allow us to enjoy playing and interacting with a larger player base.

If you have decided to do this, as is suggested by other statements in this dev blog, because you haven't worked out how to deal how the slot change affects pos mods, then DO NOT make this change until you come up with a better solution. Because this is NOT the way to make this change happen.

POSes are expensive, take time, effort and a good amount of isk to maintain already. Forcing us to risk a considerable amount more and in doing so increase the amount of busy work that is required for doing industry is not a good change.

I personally have been playing Eve for 5 and a half years. Industry is one part of the game that I greatly enjoy doing. If this change does go through I will have to seriously consider if it is worth it to keep paying for my 4 accounts. Many of my friends who like this element of the game are already talking about leaving because of this. I sincerely hope that you will not go through with this change and that the other forthcoming industry changes are much more intelligently and thoughtfully crafted than this. If not, you will be losing a large group of your paying customers.


This. I'm not planning to quit but if this change goes through you can bet your ass you will be shutting down most of the REAL industry corporations with REAL members as well as mass producers as the risk and effort will no longer be worth it.


I have to agree if the profits dive as much as they will with this change, I can see a lot of the long time producers shutting shops as their isk/hour vs invested time will just plummet to a figure not worth their time.

Or market prices will adjust (as they always do) to keep the activity just as profitable as it is now....

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Zappity
Kurved Trading
#536 - 2014-04-15 21:18:23 UTC
Excellent! Thank you CCP - I thoroughly approve of this expansion theme!

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Biterno Sintaph
Reboot Required
#537 - 2014-04-15 21:20:00 UTC
You have already stated that nullsec stations with slot bonuses will be reworked. Can I also assume the Faction Warfare bonus of extra slots per station will be equivalently reworked?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#538 - 2014-04-15 21:20:49 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
gifter Penken wrote:
The change is NOT going to have the intended consequenc (BPOs getting destroyed/captured in POS bash). It will just be a major pain in the rear to supply the BPCs that will be used for the actual construction.

This is the Bad Complexity that the dev blog mentions they want to get rid of. Instead, they create a basket load of it..

Yeah. That's my feeling too. The just replace on silly thing by another.

But let's wait and see what the other dev blogs have to tell us.


No, you are both right.

It's now an established hi sec custom, to always go for the maximum AFK possibly coupled with the maximum safety.

The new changes impact on both, players will fear to lose the valuable BPOs so everything that has some value will be subject to a copy => produce process, adding 1 more step to the process.
Zappity
Kurved Trading
#539 - 2014-04-15 21:23:41 UTC
Cod oil is very good for you - lots of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids. But remove extra materials anyway.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#540 - 2014-04-15 21:25:15 UTC
alright

i had the time to read a bit deeper into this

i am VERY excited to say the least. those changes go exactly in the direction i want eve and indu to go.

most of the actual consequences are highly dependand on actual numbers. so yeah, gief numbers plx

i also REALLY want to see more information on the idea behind the team thingy. gief plx.

also dinsdale.