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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

First post First post
Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#101 - 2014-04-01 18:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
PinkKnife wrote:
For a mix of the two. It is now easier to decide on the spectrum which is more important, speed or DPS. If you want only dps, go Gallente, if you want only speed go Minmatar, if you want mostly speed go Amarr, and if you want mostly DPS go Caldari.

Not that hard.
That's the problem: it's a mediocre mix of two things with no advantage in either. That is exactly what we already have and it is already not working. Making it not work more consistently and evenly doesn't fix the problem that it doesn't work.

The problem here is that they're trying to balance four drones with just two stats. That means that we will have two drones that matter — the ones that max out one of stats — and two that (still) don't — the ones that offer no advantage. To have that kind of difference-balance, they need more relevant stats so that the two irrelevant drones have an area to excel in. Fundamentally, the problem is this pretty silly notion that they must do different amounts of damage and that this notion ignores the fact that resistances and damage profiles already does that.

Amarr drones will be pointless against fast target — you'll want minny drones for that for the simple reason that if you pick too slow a drone, it doesn't matter whether it does the right damage type or not since it won't catch the target.
Amarr drones will still be pointless against EM-weak targets — resist weaknesses can only be relied upon against rats, and all EM-weak rats are also thermal-weak, so you'll still want gallente drones against those.
Likewise, Caldari drones will be pointless against tough targets — you'll want the most damage against those and that's still Gallente drones, and you gain no real advantage from getting to the tough target slightly faster.
And for kinetic-weak targets, it's the same problem with Caldari drones as for Amarr drones — it's only an advantage if you can reliably predict it, which means it's only relevant against rats and kn-weak rats will be thermal-weak anyway. Hell, even now, there's an actual advantage in using Caldari drones against kn-weak rats and look how popular they are as a result…
At no point will these weak drones offer any kind of compelling advantage or useful application over the two races that max out one of the stats. Middle-of-the-road mediocrity is not a convincing selling point over specialised excellence.


So as long as they keep that same wrong-headed design pattern, where four drones are squeezed into a two-dimensional continuum, two of those drones will always be meaningless. There's really no reason to separate the drones in damage output at all. Just make them do the same damage and let resists matter, and then find three other characteristics that can be used as a trade-off for speed, and where each drone race has its own distinct advantage. If they can't find three characteristics, then skip the speed differentiation as well, and just let the damage type be the only differentiator.
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights Reborn
#102 - 2014-04-01 18:57:03 UTC
I love these changes, i really hope this int an april fools thing.

Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever!

Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#103 - 2014-04-01 18:57:05 UTC
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#104 - 2014-04-01 18:59:40 UTC
I still don't see a use for Caldari and Amarr drone. I will still use Minmatar for all my anti-frig needs and Gallente for pure brawly DPS. Caldari and Amarr need their own niche. Something like Caldari getting slightly more shield HP and crazy shield recharge and Amarr getting a crazy armor brick tank.
Callic Veratar
#105 - 2014-04-01 19:00:58 UTC
The Warfish wrote:
Apparently it is.

Please tell us when "a mix of the two" is superior to the best DPS (Gall) or the best Tracking/Speed (Minn). Thats the question.

Nobody who plays EVE wants "mostly", they want best-at-role. And since Drones do two things and two things only, kill/chase off tacklers (where all that matters is best speed/tracking) and lay down DPS (where Amarr can never catch up to Gall), having "mostly" is a decision that is effectively self-nerfing.

So.....tell us my friend, what situations you want to self-nerf yourself in by having "mostly" instead of "best".


Rather than comparing pure numbers, also consider you're switching damage types. Yes, the Amarr drones are slower than Minmatar, but they'll do a much better job at hitting low EM resist.
iskflakes
#106 - 2014-04-01 19:01:17 UTC
Fozzie, can you clarify "We are also reducing the maximum number of drones available to Supercarriers from the current 20 to 10"?

I assume this means they can launch 10 fighters or 10 fighter bombers.

1) Do drone bay sizes change?

2) Do fighters double in size the same as fighter bombers?

After the changes, will all supers be able to carry a full set of 10 fighters, and 10 fighter bombers? OR, will they be able to carry a full set of fighter bombers, and half a flight of fighters (as is the current situation)?

-

PinkKnife
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2014-04-01 19:02:08 UTC
The Warfish wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
The Warfish wrote:
I appreciate the thought CCP, but:

So, I am an RP *** and Aethetics *** who loves Amarr Drones.

Tell me....

...in what circumstances would it be worth it losing speed (vs. Minny Drones) or Damage (vs. Gallente Drones) to utilize the Amarr Drones after the fix?

Cause I'm still not seeing them as all that useful.

Drones have two jobs in EVE and two only: Kill Tackler Frigates (speed/tracking is king, use Minny Drones) and pure DPS (Damage Bonus is king, use Gallente Drones).

Why would I slow my anti-fast-**** drones down? Why would I lower my damage when damage is what counts?

/shrug, outside RP reasons, I don't see many switching to Amarr/Caldari drones tbqh, especially since most drone users and vets probably have Gall and Minn Drone spec to at least 4 if not 5, and Amarr/Caldari Spec not even trained.

A better idea would probably have been to make Gallente and Amarr equal all down the line (big tough slow DPS) and Caldari/Minny Drones equal (fast, accurate).

Then the choice comes down to damge type and purpose, with EM/Therm DPS and Kin/Explo Speed options.


For a mix of the two. It is now easier to decide on the spectrum which is more important, speed or DPS. If you want only dps, go Gallente, if you want only speed go Minmatar, if you want mostly speed go Amarr, and if you want mostly DPS go Caldari.

Not that hard.


Apparently it is.

Please tell us when "a mix of the two" is superior to the best DPS (Gall) or the best Tracking/Speed (Minn). Thats the question.

Nobody who plays EVE wants "mostly", they want best-at-role. And since Drones do two things and two things only, kill/chase off tacklers (where all that matters is best speed/tracking) and lay down DPS (where Amarr can never catch up to Gall), having "mostly" is a decision that is effectively self-nerfing.

So.....tell us my friend, what situations you want to self-nerf yourself in by having "mostly" instead of "best".


I didnt mean mix as in 2 amarr 3 gallente, I meant as a mix of dps/speed. Maybe I find Gallentte drones too slow, but still like having more DPS than minmatar drones. That's when I would go with Caldari. Not a hard decision.

There is no "best-at" role anymore, so pick your flavor and go with it.

Gallente have tracking problems on fast frigates, Minmatar are unideal for slower targets that can be hit by higher damage drones. Use one of the others as a compromise for non perfect scenarios. As I said, not that hard.
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#108 - 2014-04-01 19:02:33 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Fozzie, can you clarify "We are also reducing the maximum number of drones available to Supercarriers from the current 20 to 10"?

I assume this means they can launch 10 fighters or 10 fighter bombers.

1) Do drone bay sizes change?

2) Do fighters double in size the same as fighter bombers?

After the changes, will all supers be able to carry a full set of 10 fighters, and 10 fighter bombers? OR, will they be able to carry a full set of fighter bombers, and half a flight of fighters (as is the current situation)?

Its mentioned in his blog, the drone bay size is getting nerfed down to half to match this.

The Coreli Corporation is recruiting.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#109 - 2014-04-01 19:04:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Callic Veratar wrote:
Rather than comparing pure numbers, also consider you're switching damage types. Yes, the Amarr drones are slower than Minmatar, but they'll do a much better job at hitting low EM resist.

If you're making a damage type choice, it's most likely because you're going after rats. If you're going after rats, you don't need the speed, and Gallente drones will do more damage (since all EM-weak rats are also Th-weak).

If you're going after a fast target, which is the better choice: a drone that has a higher chance of catching the target but which might do slightly less damage, or a drone which might not catch the target, but does more damage on the off chance that it does.

PinkKnife wrote:
There is no "best-at" role anymore, so pick your flavor and go with it.
Yes there is, and they're the exact same roles as now since the design pattern is exactly the same as before. If you expect fast targets, you go Minmatar; if you expect tough targets, you go Gallente. Betting that a target should happen to be slightly slower and EM-weak, or just a tiny bit too fast and kinetic-weak is such a long shot that it's just not worth risking.

Smoothing out a differentiation that isn't working because you always pick the drones that are the best at something doesn't suddenly mean you're not going to pick the drones that (still) are the best. It's the same differentiation as we currently have and which is currently not working. It's not going to work any better just because it becomes numerically prettier.
Mortvvs
Snuff Box
#110 - 2014-04-01 19:05:42 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
The Thanny and the Nyx Should get the standard bonus of 10% to drone damage and hit points after these changes to keep it uniform.


I haven't seen anything about that bonus getting removed.

FREE FILINGO

Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#111 - 2014-04-01 19:06:44 UTC
Interesting

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

iskflakes
#112 - 2014-04-01 19:07:08 UTC
Joshua Foiritain wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
Fozzie, can you clarify "We are also reducing the maximum number of drones available to Supercarriers from the current 20 to 10"?

I assume this means they can launch 10 fighters or 10 fighter bombers.

1) Do drone bay sizes change?

2) Do fighters double in size the same as fighter bombers?

After the changes, will all supers be able to carry a full set of 10 fighters, and 10 fighter bombers? OR, will they be able to carry a full set of fighter bombers, and half a flight of fighters (as is the current situation)?

Its mentioned in his blog, the drone bay size is getting nerfed down to half to match this.


I don't see that. It only mentions fighter bomber size change?

-

Novah Soul
#113 - 2014-04-01 19:07:20 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Looking forward to all your feedback. CCP Rise and I have been working hard on these changes and we think they'll be great for the drone ecosystem as a whole.

On first glance the changes seem fairly solid. but I was wondering if there is an ETA on a revamp on the Drone-UI? That thing has been God-awful for so long I hate using drones just so I can use that as little as possible.

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor

Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2014-04-01 19:07:49 UTC
Joshua Foiritain wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
Fozzie, can you clarify "We are also reducing the maximum number of drones available to Supercarriers from the current 20 to 10"?

I assume this means they can launch 10 fighters or 10 fighter bombers.

1) Do drone bay sizes change?

2) Do fighters double in size the same as fighter bombers?

After the changes, will all supers be able to carry a full set of 10 fighters, and 10 fighter bombers? OR, will they be able to carry a full set of fighter bombers, and half a flight of fighters (as is the current situation)?

Its mentioned in his blog, the drone bay size is getting nerfed down to half to match this.



no, the blog said the fighter bombers are doubling in size, not the bay getting reduced.
Kailen Thorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#115 - 2014-04-01 19:08:38 UTC
"We are also reducing the maximum number of drones available to Supercarriers from the current 20 to 10."

This part broke my heart, as a player who always loved the idea of owning lots of little drones zooming around you, Carriers and Supers were my natural progression.

I own a Carrier and enjoy all 10 (14 with my DCU's) drones zooming around, and was excited to move onto a wyvern once i had enough funds, to enjoy 20 little drones zooming around, was even panning to get 5 DCU's to say i did have 25.

I personally feel you have destroyed the 'uniqueness' of the supercarrier and its 20/25 drones (even tho improving server load makes sense)

=(
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#116 - 2014-04-01 19:09:05 UTC
Mortvvs wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
The Thanny and the Nyx Should get the standard bonus of 10% to drone damage and hit points after these changes to keep it uniform.


I haven't seen anything about that bonus getting removed.


currently it is only 5% per level to fighters/fighter bombers
Irya Boone
The Scope
#117 - 2014-04-01 19:09:35 UTC
Nice work , but still waiting for Some love on the Ewar drones would like to see which ewar drones are used ....

make the skill electronic warfare drone .. useful

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB

Mortvvs
Snuff Box
#118 - 2014-04-01 19:11:17 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Mortvvs wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
The Thanny and the Nyx Should get the standard bonus of 10% to drone damage and hit points after these changes to keep it uniform.


I haven't seen anything about that bonus getting removed.


currently it is only 5% per level to fighters/fighter bombers


Oh right, but 10% would be a tiny bit too OP.

FREE FILINGO

Novah Soul
#119 - 2014-04-01 19:13:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:

So as long as they keep that same wrong-headed design patter, where four drones are squeezed into a two-dimensional continuum, two of those drones will always be meaningless. There's really no reason to separate the drones in damage output at all. Just make them do the same damage and let resists matter, and then find three other characteristics that can be used as a trade-off for speed, and where each drone race has its own distinct advantage. If they can't find three characteristics, then skip the speed differentiation as well, and just let the damage type be the only differentiator.


This^

IDK why this wouldn't happen. Just give all the drones the same base stats for their class/type and modify the damage output. CCP does this with missiles now anyway.

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor

Edmark I
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#120 - 2014-04-01 19:13:58 UTC
Kailen Thorn wrote:
"We are also reducing the maximum number of drones available to Supercarriers from the current 20 to 10."

This part broke my heart, as a player who always loved the idea of owning lots of little drones zooming around you, Carriers and Supers were my natural progression.

I own a Carrier and enjoy all 10 (14 with my DCU's) drones zooming around, and was excited to move onto a wyvern once i had enough funds, to enjoy 20 little drones zooming around, was even panning to get 5 DCU's to say i did have 25.

I personally feel you have destroyed the 'uniqueness' of the supercarrier and its 20/25 drones (even tho improving server load makes sense)

=(


Except in any instance where supercarriers are being used in their intended role- capital fleet fights, when the fighterbombers come out- the system instantly goes 10% tidi. Given what we've learned from HED-GP and B-R reducing the number of drones in space is absolutely necessary.

Sorry for your ratting carrier and ratting super dreams