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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1701 - 2014-03-31 16:12:24 UTC
Harah Noud wrote:

originally,
"Amarr, Caldari and Gallente outposts can be upgraded to further increase ore and ice reprocessing by 2%, 4% and 7% (for a total of 52%, 54% and 57%)
Minmatar outposts can be upgraded to add further 3%, 7% and 10% on ore and ice reprocessing rates (for a total of 53%, 57% and 60%)"

so now Minmatar starts at 52% then 54%, the remaining tiers r 57 and 60 , or we add a further 10% on base to end up with 62% as max?

The former; the new rates are 52, 54, 57, and 60.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

mkint
#1702 - 2014-03-31 16:37:48 UTC
The message from CCP has not changed. Become a nullbear drone, or GTFO.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

seth Hendar
I love you miners
#1703 - 2014-03-31 16:38:03 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Update:


  • Unrefined Alchemy materials have been boosted by 81.81% next to TQ values to account for the 45% reprocessing nerf (since it's neither ore and ice, it doesn't benefit from reprocessing skills, only scrapmetal processing)
  • Plan for Minmatar outpost to give 52% reprocessing rate by default, and 54% when upgraded to tier 1. Other values are unchanged.
  • We're still investigating and pushing for Starbase Reprocessing skills to take player reprocessing skills into account. More on that when we get more info.
  • We are improving the way compression is going to work: instead of requiring various volumes of ore to compress into 1 unit of compress ore, we will now have 100 ore -> 1 compressed ore with the same output ratios, with compressed ore volume dictating the compression ratio. This is a lot more intuitive to players to use and simplifying the whole thing further. When this goes live a script will be run on TQ to make sure compressed ore stacks are migrated properly.


Example:


  • BEFORE: to compress Veldspar, I need 166,500 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with a 257m3 volume. The compressed Veldspar would yield 690,500 Tritanium for a mineral volume of 6095m3. Compression ratio is around 23.3 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).

  • AFTER: to compress Veldspar, I need 100 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with 0.15m3. The compressed Veldspar would yield 415 Tritanium for a mineral volum of 4.15m3. Compression ratio is around 24 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).

i foresee a real mess when the update comes regarding the compressed ore.....
like:
wtf i had 100 compressed veldspar and i now have 100 compressed veldspar, but it only yields 41500 trit instead of 69050...

and whatever solution you use, ppl WILL get screwed over this, one way or another (and that is assuming the update go smooth.....).

between that, the lowsec cap production nerf, the rorqual murder, and this POS thing.....i have to ask, does CCP really HATES his customers that much?

also get rid of compression in high sec, you want compression? go in low, use a rorqual or a pos, but no compression mod in system >0.4
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1704 - 2014-03-31 16:55:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
seth Hendar wrote:
i foresee a real mess when the update comes regarding the compressed ore.....
like:
wtf i had 100 compressed veldspar and i now have 100 compressed veldspar, but it only yields 41500 trit instead of 69050...
As I understand it, the conversion is to be done this way:
You had one block of compressed veldspar before the change, 166.500 units of Veldspar were required for it
Reprocessing them yielded 500,000 units of Tritanium

After the change you'll have 1,665 blocks of compressed Veldspar. Each one contains 415 units of Tritanium

415 x 1,665 = 690,975 Units of Tritanium.


At a 50 % base yield station you'll get 72,358%, with perfect skills and 4% implant:

69,0975 x 0.72358 = 499,975 units


99,995% compared to the current 100 % and exactly what you'd expect for basic Veldspar.
That's why I pointed to Pyroxeres and Crokite above, as blocks from them currntly contain ores that are no multiple of 100.

NPEISDRIP

Nlex
Domini Canium
#1705 - 2014-03-31 19:49:02 UTC
I absolutely do not understand why CCP is so vehement about not allowing people reach 100% refine rates even with perfect skills/implants.

I also do not understand why, in the far far future of EVE, recycling something only gets back 55% of materials. We have nanomachines that can restore ship armour to pristine state after nuclear strikes, or fix complex circuitry in modules after damaging overclocking/overheating. 100% might be too much, but 90-95% is perfectly within the lore. That way you still commit resources to manufacturing something, but can recover some losses too. And it allows salvagers/looters to stay in business. It's a valuable emergent profession, full of people's interaction and organisation.

Furthermore, if CCP feels the need to make refining/reprocessing more attractive in low/null, I think it should be done not by base refining percentage (except where it makes sense to, like stations that are Refinery or Factory/Assembly, or specially upgraded outposts), but by WE TAKE differentiation. Like, refining services in high are safer to use and it attracts business, so it's taxed higher and requires higher NPC standings to minimise that tax. Refining services in low would like to attract more business, so tax is lower and standing requirements are lower too. And in player owned stations/outposts tax is set by owning entity.
Also, making refining/reprocessing take special kind of slots and some time (which you have to pay for, like manufacturing slots) leads to possibility of making high/low/null different. too. As in, lower payment the lower in sec status you go, which (and slot availability) will help funnel people into lower sec by presenting a game mechanic that can be worked around and doesn't roadblock people, like hard maximum of refining percentage does.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1706 - 2014-03-31 20:25:40 UTC
Nlex wrote:
I absolutely do not understand why CCP is so vehement about not allowing people reach 100% refine rates even with perfect skills/implants.
"We may have future plans. Maybe some that even we are not aware of, yet".

NPEISDRIP

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1707 - 2014-03-31 20:34:11 UTC
Nlex wrote:
I absolutely do not understand why CCP is so vehement about not allowing people reach 100% refine rates even with perfect skills/implants.

Conversely, why are you so vehement about achieving 100%? It's just a number.

The reason CCP is doing this is to give themselves some "wiggle room" in case they need to adjust the numbers up.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1708 - 2014-04-01 00:23:48 UTC
can we please get those ore and compression values in spreadsheet form ? <3

a google doc is fine
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1709 - 2014-04-01 00:39:01 UTC
Querns wrote:
Nlex wrote:
I absolutely do not understand why CCP is so vehement about not allowing people reach 100% refine rates even with perfect skills/implants.

Conversely, why are you so vehement about achieving 100%? It's just a number.

The reason CCP is doing this is to give themselves some "wiggle room" in case they need to adjust the numbers up.


Translation: CCP ****** up hardcore with making everything use PLEX so now they're trying to fix the inflation by messing with compression, refining, and reprocessing.
Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1710 - 2014-04-01 00:40:36 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Update:


  • Unrefined Alchemy materials have been boosted by 81.81% next to TQ values to account for the 45% reprocessing nerf (since it's neither ore and ice, it doesn't benefit from reprocessing skills, only scrapmetal processing)
  • Plan for Minmatar outpost to give 52% reprocessing rate by default, and 54% when upgraded to tier 1. Other values are unchanged.
  • We're still investigating and pushing for Starbase Reprocessing skills to take player reprocessing skills into account. More on that when we get more info.
  • We are improving the way compression is going to work: instead of requiring various volumes of ore to compress into 1 unit of compress ore, we will now have 100 ore -> 1 compressed ore with the same output ratios, with compressed ore volume dictating the compression ratio. This is a lot more intuitive to players to use and simplifying the whole thing further. When this goes live a script will be run on TQ to make sure compressed ore stacks are migrated properly.


Example:


  • BEFORE: to compress Veldspar, I need 166,500 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with a 257m3 volume. The compressed Veldspar would yield 690,500 Tritanium for a mineral volume of 6095m3. Compression ratio is around 23.3 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).

  • AFTER: to compress Veldspar, I need 100 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with 0.15m3. The compressed Veldspar would yield 415 Tritanium for a mineral volum of 4.15m3. Compression ratio is around 24 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).

What about keeping the standard of requiring level 4, or atleast level 3 to compress ore? This will help keep the rif raf out of the business.

And thank you very much for making skills count when it comes to refining.
Hair Loss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1711 - 2014-04-01 00:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Hair Loss
Inspiration wrote:
Hair Loss wrote:
@Inspiration

That made no sense sorry. Wouldn't the same be true for any part of space? Might as well buff high sec with that logic.

Also, please post on your main.


If you are unable to comprehend even basic dynamic processes, what good would it do to explain in more detail?
And what exactly makes you say this is an alt?


Is this your poor way of admitting you were wrong?

Anyhow, let's please not nerf low-sec capital producers into the ground. Null already has plenty of other benefits as is because of it's overwhelming CSM influence. Let's try and make each part of EVE have a part in the future not just one.

The compression issue is just an attempt at distraction - obviously they aren't stupid enough to screw the rorqual over so badly. This way they can give the win (in the form of a useful rorqual) which will keep everyone ok with the real failing here which is the imbalanced refining between parts of EVE. Who cares what % it is as long as everyone is in the same boat - values will adjust and some change was needed to make it worth leveling all the skills up in refining.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1712 - 2014-04-01 00:42:12 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Querns wrote:
Nlex wrote:
I absolutely do not understand why CCP is so vehement about not allowing people reach 100% refine rates even with perfect skills/implants.

Conversely, why are you so vehement about achieving 100%? It's just a number.

The reason CCP is doing this is to give themselves some "wiggle room" in case they need to adjust the numbers up.


Translation: CCP ****** up hardcore with making everything use PLEX so now they're trying to fix the inflation by messing with compression, refining, and reprocessing.

What are you talking about? Is this even tangentially related to the topic at hand?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

ST Mahan
Doomheim
#1713 - 2014-04-01 01:12:04 UTC
I like the upcoming changes. Something about perfect refine doesn't sound correct.

Entropy should come to play at some point. Imperfect refine makes more sense in 'real' world thermodynamics/physics.

I also like the compression arrays and the added benefit of having POS's. More potential conflict.

Should be a good change with the summer expansion, waiting further announcements.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1714 - 2014-04-01 05:56:01 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Update:
Example:


  • BEFORE: to compress Veldspar, I need 166,500 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with a 257m3 volume. The compressed Veldspar would yield 690,500 Tritanium for a mineral volume of 6095m3. Compression ratio is around 23.3 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).

  • AFTER: to compress Veldspar, I need 100 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with 0.15m3. The compressed Veldspar would yield 415 Tritanium for a mineral volum of 4.15m3. Compression ratio is around 24 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).

So what this means in English;
You will need 1,663 blocks of compressed veldspar @ 249.57m3 to get close to the current 1 stack of veldspar @ 257m3 (refined you end up with 355 less veldspar than currently) a difference of 7.5m3
What effect does the 7.5m3 have for jump freighters, if a max skill Rhea were to fill up with nothing but compressed veldspar they can carry 34 extra blocks or 14,110 extra tritanium.


End result;
Maximum Compression rate has been reduced from around 28:1 to 24:1
A whole section of income generation (no matter how small) using Scrap Metal Reprocessing will take a 55% loss.
Refining in Empire and Lowsec NPC stations with max skills and +4 implant yields less than a no skill required pos module.
Ore compression will lead to cost increases for minerals, pos's don't run for free.
The Rorqual, previously the only way to compress ore, is to become 2nd cousin to a no skills required pos module. Not bad when months of training and a 3bil isk investment is outperformed by a pos module?

I'll stop now because the more I look at this change the closer I come to writing something that could get me banned

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Alexia Marhx
The Witch's Den
#1715 - 2014-04-01 06:24:58 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Update:
Example:


  • BEFORE: to compress Veldspar, I need 166,500 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with a 257m3 volume. The compressed Veldspar would yield 690,500 Tritanium for a mineral volume of 6095m3. Compression ratio is around 23.3 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).

  • AFTER: to compress Veldspar, I need 100 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with 0.15m3. The compressed Veldspar would yield 415 Tritanium for a mineral volum of 4.15m3. Compression ratio is around 24 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).

So what this means in English;
You will need 1,663 blocks of compressed veldspar @ 249.57m3 to get close to the current 1 stack of veldspar @ 257m3 (refined you end up with 355 less veldspar than currently) a difference of 7.5m3
What effect does the 7.5m3 have for jump freighters, if a max skill Rhea were to fill up with nothing but compressed veldspar they can carry 34 extra blocks or 14,110 extra tritanium.


End result;
Maximum Compression rate has been reduced from around 28:1 to 24:1
A whole section of income generation (no matter how small) using Scrap Metal Reprocessing will take a 55% loss.
Refining in Empire and Lowsec NPC stations with max skills and +4 implant yields less than a no skill required pos module.
Ore compression will lead to cost increases for minerals, pos's don't run for free.
The Rorqual, previously the only way to compress ore, is to become 2nd cousin to a no skills required pos module. Not bad when months of training and a 3bil isk investment is outperformed by a pos module?

I'll stop now because the more I look at this change the closer I come to writing something that could get me banned


I agree 100% with Sgt Ocker and some others, and I know some players that are angry about this upcoming change... CCP new refining charts are nonsense. High sec refining plants should have the best yield. PERIOD.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1716 - 2014-04-01 06:43:02 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
can we please get those ore and compression values in spreadsheet form ? <3

a google doc is fine
I created one, assuming a compression rate of 24 - 27,65 on mineral volume before recompression - for all ores. Not sure wether this is how it'll be done, though. Provided as Google sheet . Formula to get the block's volumes:

MineralVolume x 0.868296 / 24 | cells set to two decimals


Still waiting for Ytterbium to confirm that 24 is the factor to be used for all ores, though. Mercoxit is within the sheet, but that might be special.

NPEISDRIP

Inspiration
#1717 - 2014-04-01 07:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Hair Loss wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Hair Loss wrote:
@Inspiration

That made no sense sorry. Wouldn't the same be true for any part of space? Might as well buff high sec with that logic.

Also, please post on your main.


If you are unable to comprehend even basic dynamic processes, what good would it do to explain in more detail?
And what exactly makes you say this is an alt?


No, i was clearly arguing that trouble seeks population and population seeks opportunity. I explained this trough an analogy which demonstrated how reverse your line of though was. Using current null trouble indicators to argue against a new reward, as you did, is nonsensical with this little bit of common sense in mind.

You simply had it backwards and failed to see it. Your reply made that clear to me. Normally I would explain, but your post left little room as to your intention...you simply did not want to see the inconvenient.

I am serious!

Inspiration
#1718 - 2014-04-01 07:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Alexia Marhx wrote:
CCP new refining charts are nonsense. High sec refining plants should have the best yield. PERIOD


Because?

* It is creates such attractive and engaging game play? ... (sarcasm, for those who do not get that sort of thing)
* They / you live there?
* They / you have vested interests in it being that way?

This is what i got from your post..but maybe you can explain it better yourself.
Please why it is bad for high NOT be the best at refining!

I am serious!

Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1719 - 2014-04-01 11:21:51 UTC
We could still use gas compression Sad

The Coreli Corporation is recruiting.

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1720 - 2014-04-01 11:51:22 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Hair Loss wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Hair Loss wrote:
@Inspiration

That made no sense sorry. Wouldn't the same be true for any part of space? Might as well buff high sec with that logic.

Also, please post on your main.


If you are unable to comprehend even basic dynamic processes, what good would it do to explain in more detail?
And what exactly makes you say this is an alt?


No, i was clearly arguing that trouble seeks population and population seeks opportunity. I explained this trough an analogy which demonstrated how reverse your line of though was. Using current null trouble indicators to argue against a new reward, as you did, is nonsensical with this little bit of common sense in mind.

You simply had it backwards and failed to see it. Your reply made that clear to me. Normally I would explain, but your post left little room as to your intention...you simply did not want to see the inconvenient.


I don't understand why u r so angry and antagonizing other poster. U r the only around here picking fights, attacking ppl, and refusing to discuss them Bcz they don't fit ur standards...

Chill and relax, we r all here to express our opinions and they r as valuable as urs.
In the end we all want this game to be better, even if we don't agree what better is