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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#861 - 2014-03-21 17:39:31 UTC
Rastlor wrote:

JF's should not be able to carry Compressed Ore or have a special bay which can limits the amount they can. In that way conflict is driven by having to move freighters into Low Sec.


Doing this will not make people use freighters in low sec. They'll, in the case of the ore bay, continue to JF smaller loads of compressed minerals, or in the case of removing a JF's ability to carry compressed ore, just move uncompressed ore into lowsec, where it will get compressed at a pos and moved via rorquals into nullsec. You can't use the stick to force people to accept risk; they'll just do it the hard way and burn out on the game extremely fast. You have to use the carrot to force people to accept risk; ESS were great at doing that.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#862 - 2014-03-21 17:39:35 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".

i think you should reconsider your messaging there...


I think you should improve your understanding of the phrase "risk versus reward".

i understand risk versus reward very well, thank you very much. the fact of the matter is that in deep sov 0.0, mining is arguably more safe than in hisec. and no, the investment it took to take the space does not count because you already have it, be it for ratting, moon mining, PI or just for epeen. the space is already there, you just want it to be even more profitable than it already is at the cost of people who prefer to play in a way different from yours.

it is arguably more safe in the sense that if you ignore reality you can argue anything

it is not arguably more safe in the sense that there are legitimate arguments it is more safe

ok then, let's stick to reality:
- in contrast to hisec, sov holding alliances are already organized to provide intel on any intruder, who could possibly disrupt a mining operation.
- in contrast to hisec, non-blue locals are very few and very far between in deep sov 0.0.
- the same as in hisec, any new local can be on his way to disrupt the mining, but in contrast to hisec, you rarely see one, so you have a much smaller frequency of false positive threat assessments.

any argument about protecting your space, locked in assets etc. is inherently invalid when applied to the supposed profitability of mining, as obviously, the space you hold is already valuable enough to hold with or without mining, so there is no reason to provide any extra value to it (especially considering the stance of GSF towards mining displayed in this thread).

I should buy an Ishtar.

Grarr Dexx
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#863 - 2014-03-21 17:41:21 UTC
Querns wrote:
Egravant Alduin wrote:
One question for everybody.

Will you be able to reprocess stuff in low sec at higher ratio?

For example at 0.4 sec you ll get 60% at 0.1 90% and at null 100%?

If not then i suggest it

This is already the case. You can anchor intensive refining arrays in lowsec, which give you 8% better refines than highsec.


AKA still not competitive with 0.0, unlike what it is right now.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#864 - 2014-03-21 17:43:54 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
Querns wrote:
Egravant Alduin wrote:
One question for everybody.

Will you be able to reprocess stuff in low sec at higher ratio?

For example at 0.4 sec you ll get 60% at 0.1 90% and at null 100%?

If not then i suggest it

This is already the case. You can anchor intensive refining arrays in lowsec, which give you 8% better refines than highsec.


AKA still not competitive with 0.0, unlike what it is right now.

This is correct. However, since what he described was a scaling increase in reprocessing yields as the security status of the system goes down, he was also correct in his assessment. Everybody wins!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#865 - 2014-03-21 17:44:54 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

ok then, let's stick to reality:
- in contrast to hisec, sov holding alliances are already organized to provide intel on any intruder, who could possibly disrupt a mining operation.
- in contrast to hisec, non-blue locals are very few and very far between in deep sov 0.0.
- the same as in hisec, any new local can be on his way to disrupt the mining, but in contrast to hisec, you rarely see one, so you have a much smaller frequency of false positive threat assessments.

any argument about protecting your space, locked in assets etc. is inherently invalid when applied to the supposed profitability of mining, as obviously, the space you hold is already valuable enough to hold with or without mining, so there is no reason to provide any extra value to it (especially considering the stance of GSF towards mining displayed in this thread).

"if you put huge amounts of effort into being safer, you can be safer than if I do absolutely nothing to protect myself and indeed play like i'm roleplaying a bot"

we are able, through effort, to make ourselves safer. that amount of effort in highsec would make us much safer than we are now. there is no sense in which null is safer than highsec, your argument is merely that a higher caliber of player exists in nullsec: but these overmen would be a higher caliber anywhere

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#866 - 2014-03-21 17:45:49 UTC
I have just fully read the blog and have a few comments & questions:

1) I don't see what is wrong with leaving refining as being called refining in terms of ore & ice and having reprocessing of already processed materials such as modules etc as being called reprocessing. After all this is how it is in real life and it just seems logical to me therefore these terminologies should remain as they are.

2) So to confirm what was written would a high sec refiner of ore & ice need the following at a 50% NPC station to achieve the maximum possible yield in high sec:
Refining at lvl 5.
Refinery Efficiency at lvl 5.
All or relevant to their needs Ore Processing skills to lvl 5.
A 4% refining hardwiring implant fitted.

3) Halving the return on reprocessing loot is going to seriously reduce the income that mission runners can make depending if they gather the loot or are more interested in mission rewards & LP. The blog doesn't touch on this issue very much as CCP still appears to be under the thraldom of the nullsec community and the nullsec CSM powerbase. Would or has a CCP dev made a comment on mission income as a result of this change?

4) IT does seem like CCP is forcing the nullsec community down one method of transporting minerals/ore into nullsec to produce capital ships. What will be the jump freighter m3 capacity needed to transport compressed ore from high to null sec versus the current favoured method of transporting 425mm Railguns from high to null sec and reprocessing them to use the minerals?

5) A lot of pilots consider miners to be the scum of the earth, parasites, etc. If the proposed changes come to pass will the nullsec community start mining on a large scale in nullsec systems or will they purchase compressed ore in high sec and JF it back to nullsec?

6) It seems to me like the proposed changes will make the Rorqual redundant especially once the changes come in to make the Rorqual not provide bonuses to miners if it is within a POS shield. Does CCP have anything to add regarding this issue?

On balance I don't think anything in this dev blog should be implemented. The main reasoning for it appears to be to appease the nullsec community which it largely fails to do as it drops a spanner in the works of their industrial capability. The other reason for this proposal being to bodge the 'extra materials' mess from all the 'ship rebalancing' that wasn't needed or wanted.

I truly hope you pull back from this idea and put some consideration into fixing broken things. This proposal alludes to fixing broken things in nullsec but breaks a number of other processes across the whole of New Eden.

Corporation Roles & Permissions in conjunction with running POSes are really broken. I suggest you go have a look at that issue instead?

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#867 - 2014-03-21 17:51:02 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
The main reasoning for it appears to be to appease the nullsec community which it largely fails to do as it drops a spanner in the works of their industrial capability.

all the other errors in your post have already been corrected earlier in the thread, but I wish to note for the record everyone who understands nullsec industry recognizes that this is a long-needed improvement and many have posted to that effect in this thread (such as myself)

please do not try to make bad arguments speaking for other people

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#868 - 2014-03-21 17:52:47 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

However, if you increase the base yield of Minmatar stations, you easily run into the situation where lowsec builders cannot compete with nullsec builders. To be frank, lowsec has similar levels of risks as nullsec. The efforts to build ships there is roughly the same. So, with little increased effort, and little increased risk, I don't see the justification in increasing reward.

This is not at all true. A lowsec builder builds in station: he is utterly invulnerable and can never lose his station or have his bpos locked up. He also has a factory/refinery: perfect refines, 50 slots. It's the latter that nullsec has been utterly unable to compete with, as nullsec has no factory/refineries.

Even if minmatar refines are boosted, a lowsec station is better than an un-upgraded minmatar station because the minmatar station doesn't have any factory slots (it only has 5, making it impossible to produce caps well there). You'd have to be building at a pos, and placing yourself at greater risk of losing your baby ships (something a lowsec producer can never lose).

In addition, in null, you can lose your build station: even if I spend 60 billion making an improved factory/refinery I can build in-station, I can lose that station and have all my caps/cap bpos locked up. No lowsec producer ever faces that risk. The lowsec producer simply moves in and doesn't have to work for his space, pay to upgrade it, defend it, and risk losing it. Nullsec producers must do all four. It's nonsense that they face "little increased effort" and "little increased risk", as a lowsec builder needs to expend no effort and suffer no risk.


You bring up some good points.

1.) Don't get me started on the imbalances of the Sov system. Ill admit that the current system makes it very risky for small entities holding sov, which is why nullsec production will generally be found in the "Safer" homes of larger coalition entities. From such positions, the risk of loss is pretty much identical to that of a lowsec producer. Stop the propaganda and be honestly, unless you are in a small alliance/coalition, this is a very small risk your BPO's get locked up in a station.

2.) I did not realize the nullsec Minmatar stations only have 5 MFG lines. Even upgraded, you aren't going to have too many MFG lines. This is a legitimate reason to boost Minmatar station refining. To be honest though, minmatar stations are primarily built FOR their refining potential. It makes sense they should refine better than other stations, I just don't know where that level should be. They are regularly upgraded to Tier 1 stations, and I firmly believe that the POS Intensive refinery should refine better than the Tier 1 Minmatar Outpost. I like the 54% POS, 53% Tier1 Minmatar balance, and would recommend reducing the efficiency of "Other" outposts rather than increasing the efficiency of the Minmatar ones.
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#869 - 2014-03-21 17:56:24 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

It will be better once the change happens, due to the maximum return of 55%.

It won't be better than the current.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rztizv7FJOTyS1KqTorge0YtRpY60Lp_bzSnWhmaRDo/edit?usp=sharing

details the compression. With an 80% refine rate, you're looking at 21.5-1 compression, where as a 425mm Rail does better.


On the other hand, this adjusts the mineral ratios fairly significantly.


Yeah, I did the math as well: mineral compression is not as good as 425mms. I'm guessing that CCP made a mistake and assumed that, if you did a 100% refine the compressed ore is as good as 425mms are now. That's wrong though, it should be as good as 425mms are if you did a 86.86% refine, the highest you can get. That requires packing the ore a little bit more densely.

CCP Ytterbium: Could you take another look at the compression values and make sure they're where you want them to be, assuming you refine at a 60% minmatar instead of a hypothetical 100% refine?

What makes you think that CCP didn't want to nerf compression? That would make a lot more sense to me seeing as CCP are trying to encourage industry to be conducted in null sec, including mining.

It doesn't mention in the blog that CCP want to keep compression ratios exactly the same as they are now. I don't think CCP has made a mistake here, this is working as intended, and a very good change in my opinion.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#870 - 2014-03-21 17:58:18 UTC
Here's a new topic: Compression. In the currently proposed changeset, you need to use a POS in highsec to compress ore. This is good for people with an established corporation and pos infrastructure, but it's a little restrictive to the solo player or the new player, who lacks the standings and the capital to run a POS.

My suggestion, in this regard, is to keep the existing ore compression blueprints, but allow them to be used in standard industrial lines. Alternatively, allow right-click compression to simply function in stations. In the blueprint option, remove the skills needed to use the blueprints and make their PE research values low-to-nonexistent to allow a new player to quickly bootstrap themselves into compressed ore.

This will let new players and solo players more readily produce compressed ore, which, I believe, will quickly become the preferred method to trade minerals in Eve. The POS module for compressing ore should remain, however, to allow people with the necessary wherewithal to produce mining emplacements in areas of space with no stations, allowing them to bend their superior skills and capital into a market advantage.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#871 - 2014-03-21 17:58:33 UTC
Don't waste your time or effort expecting CCP to either abandon or make major changes to this mechanic. There hasn't been a dev reply to any questions/issues raised in over 30 pages. This is a done deal, folks.

Guess I'd better start liquidating the pile of mission loot I've been meaning to deal with forever and learn to blitz missions as it'll no longer be worth my time to loot/salvage them.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Mario Putzo
#872 - 2014-03-21 17:59:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Weaselior wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

ok then, let's stick to reality:
- in contrast to hisec, sov holding alliances are already organized to provide intel on any intruder, who could possibly disrupt a mining operation.
- in contrast to hisec, non-blue locals are very few and very far between in deep sov 0.0.
- the same as in hisec, any new local can be on his way to disrupt the mining, but in contrast to hisec, you rarely see one, so you have a much smaller frequency of false positive threat assessments.

any argument about protecting your space, locked in assets etc. is inherently invalid when applied to the supposed profitability of mining, as obviously, the space you hold is already valuable enough to hold with or without mining, so there is no reason to provide any extra value to it (especially considering the stance of GSF towards mining displayed in this thread).

"if you put huge amounts of effort into being safer, you can be safer than if I do absolutely nothing to protect myself and indeed play like i'm roleplaying a bot"

we are able, through effort, to make ourselves safer. that amount of effort in highsec would make us much safer than we are now. there is no sense in which null is safer than highsec, your argument is merely that a higher caliber of player exists in nullsec: but these overmen would be a higher caliber anywhere


Ya because you can totally limit gate travel in HS. You can have a mining op defense fleet aggress neutrals in HS. Come on man, this whole Null isn't as safe is entirely bogus.

Bubble the gate get a +1 and align out, by the time "enemy" is out of the gate bubble you are aligned, get a Dscan hit warp to safe. Wait for guy to get bored repeat. Or just put a defensive gate camp up and go about your business, because you can freely engage anything that comes into system. Null has much more safety measures available to it than HS, you are living in a dream world if you don't think its true. Hell you can freely shoot without a care in the world that is a huge safety advantage.

Especially null that is 20 or so systems deep into "Blue Space" You think the guys up in Tenal, or Deklein fear of getting ganked? If they did they wouldn't be out ratting and plexing in Carriers and Supers. Give your head a shake parrot.

Ultimately your complaints come down to Sov mechanics which CCP will not change because doing so will only remove the only publicity this game gets 4K man Tidi brawls.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#873 - 2014-03-21 18:01:20 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

However, if you increase the base yield of Minmatar stations, you easily run into the situation where lowsec builders cannot compete with nullsec builders. To be frank, lowsec has similar levels of risks as nullsec. The efforts to build ships there is roughly the same. So, with little increased effort, and little increased risk, I don't see the justification in increasing reward.

This is not at all true. A lowsec builder builds in station: he is utterly invulnerable and can never lose his station or have his bpos locked up. He also has a factory/refinery: perfect refines, 50 slots. It's the latter that nullsec has been utterly unable to compete with, as nullsec has no factory/refineries.

Even if minmatar refines are boosted, a lowsec station is better than an un-upgraded minmatar station because the minmatar station doesn't have any factory slots (it only has 5, making it impossible to produce caps well there). You'd have to be building at a pos, and placing yourself at greater risk of losing your baby ships (something a lowsec producer can never lose).

In addition, in null, you can lose your build station: even if I spend 60 billion making an improved factory/refinery I can build in-station, I can lose that station and have all my caps/cap bpos locked up. No lowsec producer ever faces that risk. The lowsec producer simply moves in and doesn't have to work for his space, pay to upgrade it, defend it, and risk losing it. Nullsec producers must do all four. It's nonsense that they face "little increased effort" and "little increased risk", as a lowsec builder needs to expend no effort and suffer no risk.


You CAN most of the stuff, but how many times you actually do is up for discussion.

Unless ofc you are out to compensate for stupid things, like loosing sov because of payment issues or loosing an embryo because the jf was jumping around like mad.

In the end most people (like me) will read: "I have more belts and mineral types available to me but refuse to mine them until my refining has the same bonus as everything else in null to compensate for random agression deep in my large secure alliance territory."

This is what you get if the changes are many, seem contrived, all over the place and with bad timing.
Mario Putzo
#874 - 2014-03-21 18:03:27 UTC
Its funny seeing the regular Goon posting crew being the only ones calling this a good change. Mittens must have sent a ping out this morning.
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#875 - 2014-03-21 18:04:23 UTC
Querns wrote:
Here's a new topic: Compression. In the currently proposed changeset, you need to use a POS in highsec to compress ore. This is good for people with an established corporation and pos infrastructure, but it's a little restrictive to the solo player or the new player, who lacks the standings and the capital to run a POS.

My suggestion, in this regard, is to keep the existing ore compression blueprints, but allow them to be used in standard industrial lines. Alternatively, allow right-click compression to simply function in stations. In the blueprint option, remove the skills needed to use the blueprints and make their PE research values low-to-nonexistent to allow a new player to quickly bootstrap themselves into compressed ore.

This will let new players and solo players more readily produce compressed ore, which, I believe, will quickly become the preferred method to trade minerals in Eve. The POS module for compressing ore should remain, however, to allow people with the necessary wherewithal to produce mining emplacements in areas of space with no stations, allowing them to bend their superior skills and capital into a market advantage.

No thanks, keep compression a proper profession for which you either need a Rorqual or a POS, I would even suggest that the POS module should use the same skills as are necessary for the Rorqual to compress.

I love how Nullseccers quickly switch their stance on their opposition to dumbing things down when it is about to affect their production chains. Just suck it up and deal with it like everyone else is going to have to.
Destitute Tehol Beddict
Binary Trading
#876 - 2014-03-21 18:06:39 UTC
Marcia en Welle wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

It will be better once the change happens, due to the maximum return of 55%.

It won't be better than the current.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rztizv7FJOTyS1KqTorge0YtRpY60Lp_bzSnWhmaRDo/edit?usp=sharing

details the compression. With an 80% refine rate, you're looking at 21.5-1 compression, where as a 425mm Rail does better.


On the other hand, this adjusts the mineral ratios fairly significantly.


Yeah, I did the math as well: mineral compression is not as good as 425mms. I'm guessing that CCP made a mistake and assumed that, if you did a 100% refine the compressed ore is as good as 425mms are now. That's wrong though, it should be as good as 425mms are if you did a 86.86% refine, the highest you can get. That requires packing the ore a little bit more densely.

CCP Ytterbium: Could you take another look at the compression values and make sure they're where you want them to be, assuming you refine at a 60% minmatar instead of a hypothetical 100% refine?

What makes you think that CCP didn't want to nerf compression? That would make a lot more sense to me seeing as CCP are trying to encourage industry to be conducted in null sec, including mining.

It doesn't mention in the blog that CCP want to keep compression ratios exactly the same as they are now. I don't think CCP has made a mistake here, this is working as intended, and a very good change in my opinion.


If there intended goal was to nerf compression why not just change the m3 values of the modules themselves, I mean its not very realistic in the first place.

Loot Buying service: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4529397#post4529397

Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#877 - 2014-03-21 18:08:13 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Its funny seeing the regular Goon posting crew being the only ones calling this a good change. Mittens must have sent a ping out this morning.

Actually it is a much needed change, and any impartial person can see that null sec should confer some advantage, as should low sec and npc null sec.

The only thing I would say is that the scrap metal nerf is a bit too heavy handed, and also the POS modules should require skills to be used.

I just love the double standards though, these sov holders are so quick to tell everyone else to suck it up, and then at the same time cry when something is going to affect their production chains.

A slight nerf to compression is a small price to pay for this big buff, along with the previous big buff to ore mineral content.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#878 - 2014-03-21 18:08:17 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

ok then, let's stick to reality:
- in contrast to hisec, sov holding alliances are already organized to provide intel on any intruder, who could possibly disrupt a mining operation.
- in contrast to hisec, non-blue locals are very few and very far between in deep sov 0.0.
- the same as in hisec, any new local can be on his way to disrupt the mining, but in contrast to hisec, you rarely see one, so you have a much smaller frequency of false positive threat assessments.

any argument about protecting your space, locked in assets etc. is inherently invalid when applied to the supposed profitability of mining, as obviously, the space you hold is already valuable enough to hold with or without mining, so there is no reason to provide any extra value to it (especially considering the stance of GSF towards mining displayed in this thread).

"if you put huge amounts of effort into being safer, you can be safer than if I do absolutely nothing to protect myself and indeed play like i'm roleplaying a bot"

we are able, through effort, to make ourselves safer. that amount of effort in highsec would make us much safer than we are now. there is no sense in which null is safer than highsec, your argument is merely that a higher caliber of player exists in nullsec: but these overmen would be a higher caliber anywhere

you are already investing this effort, with or without mining. if the space you hold is not worth it without mining, either start ******* mining or abandon 0.0 and join fw. seeing as you are unwilling to do either, the effort is probably worth it and the intel network can be considered free, as far as mining ops go.
the same amount of effort would be highly inefficient (or even impossible) in highsec and would have exactly 0 benefit beyond safer mining. again, reality, not *what if we were idiots who didn't know how to intel*.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Matalino
#879 - 2014-03-21 18:08:36 UTC
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
This assumes that people who loot missions will stay constant... which is not guaranteed at all. Also this assumes that margins will double in the long terms...

To be honest nerfing the refine rate is fine.. but nerfing it this much? I mean whats the real problem here? Why is this change necessary? Because I'm not convinced. The numbers seem so arbitrary...
The number of mission runners who loot missions changes the volume of recyclables, not the margin on those recyclables.

Recyclable loot, by definition, is loot with a value defined by the minerals obtained by recycling. Items will stabilize at the value of the new mineral content or they will stop being classified as recyclable junk.

If people stop looting missions, then the higher meta items will increase in value until an equilibrium is reached.

I fully expect that the volume of recyclables will decrease, but this will be offset by the decrease in competition among recyclers that comes with increased barrier of entry.

The real problem that is being fixed here is that "gun mining" should not be able to compete with asteroid mining as a source of minerals. This will significantly shift the production of minerals towards asteroid mining.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#880 - 2014-03-21 18:08:48 UTC
Marcia en Welle wrote:
Querns wrote:
Here's a new topic: Compression. In the currently proposed changeset, you need to use a POS in highsec to compress ore. This is good for people with an established corporation and pos infrastructure, but it's a little restrictive to the solo player or the new player, who lacks the standings and the capital to run a POS.

My suggestion, in this regard, is to keep the existing ore compression blueprints, but allow them to be used in standard industrial lines. Alternatively, allow right-click compression to simply function in stations. In the blueprint option, remove the skills needed to use the blueprints and make their PE research values low-to-nonexistent to allow a new player to quickly bootstrap themselves into compressed ore.

This will let new players and solo players more readily produce compressed ore, which, I believe, will quickly become the preferred method to trade minerals in Eve. The POS module for compressing ore should remain, however, to allow people with the necessary wherewithal to produce mining emplacements in areas of space with no stations, allowing them to bend their superior skills and capital into a market advantage.

No thanks, keep compression a proper profession for which you either need a Rorqual or a POS, I would even suggest that the POS module should use the same skills as are necessary for the Rorqual to compress.

I love how Nullseccers quickly switch their stance on their opposition to dumbing things down when it is about to affect their production chains. Just suck it up and deal with it like everyone else is going to have to.

So, the solo/new miner should not be able to participate in the mining economy at all until they've trained up Capital Industrial Ships and Industrial Reconfiguration? The proposed changeset is going to make compressed ore the sovereign currency by which minerals are traded, due to the need to run them through a Minmatar T3 station.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.