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As others have pointed out, that comparison does not work for industry. If the guy with the skill at 4 is operating a recycling business with a 2% margin, training the skill to level 5 will result in a 100% increase in profits.

I've been playing with some of the numbers, especially regarding the possibility of using a fully upgraded Minmatar refinery (60%) for refining in nulsec.

Looks like a 20% buff to output over current rates. There may be a reason to mine in sov nulsec now. Assuming you're willing to accept the risks involved.

I also like the changes to compressed ores and scrapmetal reprocessing. It seems compressed Veldpar is now a better compression rate than 425mm Rails.

It will be better once the change happens, due to the maximum return of 55%.

It won't be better than the current.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rztizv7FJOTyS1KqTorge0YtRpY60Lp_bzSnWhmaRDo/edit?usp=sharing

details the compression. With an 80% refine rate, you're looking at 21.5-1 compression, where as a 425mm Rail does better.


On the other hand, this adjusts the mineral ratios fairly significantly.

I think people are seeing better refining rates in nullsec and completely overlooking how the changes to compression will change the mineral/ore markets. Minerals obtained by refining in high-efficiency nullsec stations will have to be used there. The refining changes are good for miners, but the real difference will be felt by manufacturers.

you mean logging in having a intel network that tells you a hostels is coming from 40 jumps away the station only you guys can dock in the best rats in the game the best rocks in the game the best moons in the game...... but yet when you null pricks get bored the first thing you do is come up and suicide gank indy and mission runners. and ***** cause you are so hard done by with all your supers and tech moons.

This assumes that people who loot missions will stay constant... which is not guaranteed at all. Also this assumes that margins will double in the long terms...

To be honest nerfing the refine rate is fine.. but nerfing it this much? I mean whats the real problem here? Why is this change necessary? Because I'm not convinced. The numbers seem so arbitrary...

This is not at all true. A lowsec builder builds in station: he is utterly invulnerable and can never lose his station or have his bpos locked up. He also has a factory/refinery: perfect refines, 50 slots. It's the latter that nullsec has been utterly unable to compete with, as nullsec has no factory/refineries.

Even if minmatar refines are boosted, a lowsec station is better than an un-upgraded minmatar station because the minmatar station doesn't have any factory slots (it only has 5, making it impossible to produce caps well there). You'd have to be building at a pos, and placing yourself at greater risk of losing your baby ships (something a lowsec producer can never lose).

In addition, in null, you can lose your build station: even if I spend 60 billion making an improved factory/refinery I can build in-station, I can lose that station and have all my caps/cap bpos locked up. No lowsec producer ever faces that risk. The lowsec producer simply moves in and doesn't have to work for his space, pay to upgrade it, defend it, and risk losing it. Nullsec producers must do all four. It's nonsense that they face "little increased effort" and "little increased risk", as a lowsec builder needs to expend no effort and suffer no risk.

One question for everybody.

Will you be able to reprocess stuff in low sec at higher ratio?

For example at 0.4 sec you ll get 60% at 0.1 90% and at null 100%?

If not then i suggest it

Whilst not wanting to turn this into a Grr Goons thread is there not a certain amount of irony in on one hand pleading poverty and demanding CCP fix broken Null, introduce fields and farms, increase bounties...

Whilst in the other hand running one of the most generous SRP programs effectively paying double for pvp losses, free carriers, free skillbooks etc etc.

There is plenty of people that mine in Null (I've killed many of them) even within Goonswarm if there lucid they are pretty much safe, sure a cloakie can stop them some but whatever.

JF's should not be able to carry Compressed Ore or have a special bay which can limits the amount they can. In that way conflict is driven by having to move freighters into Low Sec for tranfer to a Rorq (which is somewhat lacking in utility at the moment).

The majority of people just do not see the larger picture. Absolutely no reason to quarrel and to increase hostility between different groups of players. These changes are just an improvement of the game called “Lords and peasants”. These peasants are found not only in highsec but in null as well. Though some of them think that they are the lords.

Only real “masters” will benefit after these changes, those who can set tax on ore refining in null outposts. Just set tax at level that peasant could get a bit higher refine rate than is posible in highsec or inside pos and he will use your outpost service instead compresing valuable ore and shiping to highsec to refine. Everyone will be happy, peasant will get the same amount of minerals as now (because of ore adjustment) with 70+% refining and his master will get few percents too.

Will we see more miners in null??? Dont think so, all low end ore will be imported from highsec just in other form and these low end minerals will be cheaper for outposts owners, because only they can get max output from refining. Sure nullsec cartels wont control all items manufacturing but they can pick some “key” ships, modules and noone from low, wh or highsec can compete with them at profitability to do it. Why player outposts get higher refine rates than pos? I saw some comments about (obviously) risk vs reward, but in reality owning outpost is safer than pos, because you can get outpost back after losing it, while pos is destructable. Yes outpost and upgrades are expensive, why to not make them cheaper?

Changes to modules, ships reprocesing - thats a bit complicated. It is good if you think that “gun mining” was bad design and maybe thats true, but on other hand it gives versatility in game, other option to get some minerals (even null minerals in highsec) for small scale manufacturing. So these people who bother to loot and salvage npc wreck will be nerfed. Last “Great loot nerf” as some people call it was not so great if you compare with what will come. Maybe removing all but meta4 mods from drop tables would be best option with upcoming changes.

Sorry for my bad english


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