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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#841 - 2014-03-21 17:01:29 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Funny to see goonies telling everyone how mining works when across their vast 3/4 of null asteroid belts sit untouched. "Oooh the mechanics" What a load of **** Mynnna. I respect your grasp on economics in the game but this is a pretty weak reach for justifying the fact that all across CFC space there are thousands of roids untouched. Its not the mechanics, its cowardice and laziness. Im sure if you could passively grab those rocks like moongoo you and your friends would have stopped complaining years ago.

Let me guess its the afk cloaky dudes fault. Maybe you should have Martini ask for another round of forum alt warriors to spread the news.

What a joke.


wait you mean they can't yet? well this won't do! we must petition ccp to make this happen post haste!
Matalino
#842 - 2014-03-21 17:03:42 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
Think about the fact that a skill that gives you 2% per level seems to give you nothing.
Seriously a 10% bonus after you waited days or month...
And think about the fact that diference between a guy that have a skill at 4 and guy that have a skill at 5 is only 2% . It is hard .
As others have pointed out, that comparison does not work for industry. If the guy with the skill at 4 is operating a recycling business with a 2% margin, training the skill to level 5 will result in a 100% increase in profits.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#843 - 2014-03-21 17:07:08 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
I guess i dont get how this changes the desire to train refining at all, which is being advertised as the main reason.

The bonus of 0 skills vs max skills stays roughly the same, due to pos array, yet now you can get max skill bonus only in null.

Wouldnt giving pos and null 50% base and replacing null ore with a "superdense" 25% variant achieve all this without killing off mineral compression and reducing mission rewards?

What am i missing here? It does really seem like "YOU WILL HAVE TO SHIP ALL ORE TO NULL!!!" is the main reason.


This is an excellent point you make. I think this gives a decent bit of insight into the mindset of the people that decided to follow through on this development cycle. With the old carrot and stick analogy you can either use carrots to encourage players to go in the direction you would like them to or use a stick to punish the ones that don't obey your whims.

It seems CCP chose the path of the tyrant.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#844 - 2014-03-21 17:08:00 UTC
I've been playing with some of the numbers, especially regarding the possibility of using a fully upgraded Minmatar refinery (60%) for refining in nulsec.

Looks like a 20% buff to output over current rates. There may be a reason to mine in sov nulsec now. Assuming you're willing to accept the risks involved.

I also like the changes to compressed ores and scrapmetal reprocessing. It seems compressed Veldpar is now a better compression rate than 425mm Rails.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#845 - 2014-03-21 17:09:28 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
Think about the fact that a skill that gives you 2% per level seems to give you nothing.
Seriously a 10% bonus after you waited days or month...
And think about the fact that diference between a guy that have a skill at 4 and guy that have a skill at 5 is only 2% . It is hard .



So... Small Autocannon Specialization.

See many people complaining about that?

After all, it's only 2% per level.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#846 - 2014-03-21 17:12:56 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
I've been playing with some of the numbers, especially regarding the possibility of using a fully upgraded Minmatar refinery (60%) for refining in nulsec.

Looks like a 20% buff to output over current rates. There may be a reason to mine in sov nulsec now. Assuming you're willing to accept the risks involved.

I also like the changes to compressed ores and scrapmetal reprocessing. It seems compressed Veldpar is now a better compression rate than 425mm Rails.



It will be better once the change happens, due to the maximum return of 55%.

It won't be better than the current.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rztizv7FJOTyS1KqTorge0YtRpY60Lp_bzSnWhmaRDo/edit?usp=sharing

details the compression. With an 80% refine rate, you're looking at 21.5-1 compression, where as a 425mm Rail does better.


On the other hand, this adjusts the mineral ratios fairly significantly.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#847 - 2014-03-21 17:14:09 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Ytterbium, if the Minmatar Outpost once fully upgraded is the new "100%" could the numbers not be adjusted to reflect this? Some players may (and probably will) get extremely cranky to invest so much time and isk into getting there refining to perfect skills and implants only to see they refine at 86.8%


We want to leave a waste margin if and when future changes are needed.

Regarding the Minmatar Outpost providing no advantage over the other racial ones when it's not upgraded, that's a good point, will look into that one.


As much as I love to see more people move to lowsec, this suggestion will be devastating to lowsec.

Lowsec is home to a lot of capital ship production, which utilize mineral compression to move items to lowsec and build them there.

There is no pragmatic logistical difference between moving items to a lowsec station and moving items to a nullsec station (unless they are in deep nullsec). So these costs are the same.

However, nullsec residents generally have access to Minmatar Stations. A quick review of Providence, Deklien, Tribute, and Vale shows about 25% of the outposts in those regions are minmatar, and about 12.5% of all outposts in those regions are Tier 1 Minmatar Stations. There is ONE Tier 2 and Zero Tier 3 Outposts out of the 200 player build outposts in those regions.

What this means, is that a nullsec resident readily has access to 53% stations. That is a 6% increase in refine yield over lowsec station refiners. Considering the profits on a Carrier/Dread are about 5%, this will make it very hard for the lowsec producers to compete. Luckily, they can use a POS, just like the nullseccer, and be on equal footing again.

However, if you increase the base yield of Minmatar stations, you easily run into the situation where lowsec builders cannot compete with nullsec builders. To be frank, lowsec has similar levels of risks as nullsec. The efforts to build ships there is roughly the same. So, with little increased effort, and little increased risk, I don't see the justification in increasing reward.

I would recommend making all Non-minmatar outposts have a 45% base Refining, and giving the minnie outposts a 50% base refining!

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#848 - 2014-03-21 17:14:29 UTC
I think people are seeing better refining rates in nullsec and completely overlooking how the changes to compression will change the mineral/ore markets. Minerals obtained by refining in high-efficiency nullsec stations will have to be used there. The refining changes are good for miners, but the real difference will be felt by manufacturers.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#849 - 2014-03-21 17:18:34 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:

It will be better once the change happens, due to the maximum return of 55%.

It won't be better than the current.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rztizv7FJOTyS1KqTorge0YtRpY60Lp_bzSnWhmaRDo/edit?usp=sharing

details the compression. With an 80% refine rate, you're looking at 21.5-1 compression, where as a 425mm Rail does better.


On the other hand, this adjusts the mineral ratios fairly significantly.


Yeah, I did the math as well: mineral compression is not as good as 425mms. I'm guessing that CCP made a mistake and assumed that, if you did a 100% refine the compressed ore is as good as 425mms are now. That's wrong though, it should be as good as 425mms are if you did a 86.86% refine, the highest you can get. That requires packing the ore a little bit more densely.

CCP Ytterbium: Could you take another look at the compression values and make sure they're where you want them to be, assuming you refine at a 60% minmatar instead of a hypothetical 100% refine?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#850 - 2014-03-21 17:19:40 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".

i think you should reconsider your messaging there...


I think you should improve your understanding of the phrase "risk versus reward".


Which risk?


The inherent risk that comes with living in nullsec.

you mean logging in having a intel network that tells you a hostels is coming from 40 jumps away the station only you guys can dock in the best rats in the game the best rocks in the game the best moons in the game...... but yet when you null pricks get bored the first thing you do is come up and suicide gank indy and mission runners. and ***** cause you are so hard done by with all your supers and tech moons.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#851 - 2014-03-21 17:21:27 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Querns wrote:
Hint: newbies are not slave labor. No one is obligated to mine, ever. The fact that you covet our tiny asteroid belts due to the crippling poverty that a highsec miner faces on account of daily depletion of highsec belts does not somehow obligate us to use ours.


Yet it entitles your CSM members to lobby for changes to mechanics that don't even impact "you", all because you refuse to mine belts in your own space. Sounds about par for the course for Goon Logic.


down with goon csm?
Destitute Tehol Beddict
Binary Trading
#852 - 2014-03-21 17:22:41 UTC
Matalino wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Crappeshotte wrote:
TLDR, but I have a question for the Devs...

I own junk - ships and modules - across four hisec regions which I have bought specifically for the purposes of reprocessing. If I were to reprocess them all today - which isn't practical - they would convert into perhaps 20 billion ISK worth of minerals.

If I understand correctly - and I accept that I may not - after this change is introduced, the quantity of minerals I'd get back - and hence their value - would be dramatically less, even if I skilled up to the max (I'm currently at Scrapmetal Processing 4, Refining 5 and Refinery Efficiency 5) and despite having 8.0+ standing with two NPC Corps.

Am I missing something here, or is a lot of time and financial investment about to be wiped out?

fortunately for you, they've announced this change months in advance

Exactly. You have several months before the change goes into effect, during which you can clear out your inventory. Update your buying price to reflect the new mineral content of the modules after the change. It will take a while for prices to adjust, but once they have you can resume business as usual.

If anything this is a long-term boost to those who specialize in this business model because the barrier of entry has increased from Scrapmetal Processing 4 to Scrapmetal Processing 5.


This assumes that people who loot missions will stay constant... which is not guaranteed at all. Also this assumes that margins will double in the long terms...

To be honest nerfing the refine rate is fine.. but nerfing it this much? I mean whats the real problem here? Why is this change necessary? Because I'm not convinced. The numbers seem so arbitrary...

Loot Buying service: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4529397#post4529397

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#853 - 2014-03-21 17:23:31 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
mynnna wrote:
- it's got everything to do with mining simply not being a worthwhile task.
\

Admitting that you and your friends are too lazy or self important to actually mine the asteroids in your space isn't much of an attack on my premise. Neither is admitting that in an alliance with 20,000 or more members you can't arrange or force your new members to take up the task of mining for the almighty alliance. That sounds like a problem with logistics and leadership, not with game design.



Look at the word "worthwhile". "worth" meaning value and "while" mean a period of time or an interval. Literally this is value in time spent. Compare mining to all other possible income streams in game currently and convince me it's "worth-while".

I was originally a miner in this game and now mostly run null sec anoms not because running anoms is my preferred game play but because I'd need to run three accounts simultaneously to make the same isk mining.

As a side note when I'm not running null sec anoms for isk I'm running high sec missions for fun.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#854 - 2014-03-21 17:25:05 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

However, if you increase the base yield of Minmatar stations, you easily run into the situation where lowsec builders cannot compete with nullsec builders. To be frank, lowsec has similar levels of risks as nullsec. The efforts to build ships there is roughly the same. So, with little increased effort, and little increased risk, I don't see the justification in increasing reward.

This is not at all true. A lowsec builder builds in station: he is utterly invulnerable and can never lose his station or have his bpos locked up. He also has a factory/refinery: perfect refines, 50 slots. It's the latter that nullsec has been utterly unable to compete with, as nullsec has no factory/refineries.

Even if minmatar refines are boosted, a lowsec station is better than an un-upgraded minmatar station because the minmatar station doesn't have any factory slots (it only has 5, making it impossible to produce caps well there). You'd have to be building at a pos, and placing yourself at greater risk of losing your baby ships (something a lowsec producer can never lose).

In addition, in null, you can lose your build station: even if I spend 60 billion making an improved factory/refinery I can build in-station, I can lose that station and have all my caps/cap bpos locked up. No lowsec producer ever faces that risk. The lowsec producer simply moves in and doesn't have to work for his space, pay to upgrade it, defend it, and risk losing it. Nullsec producers must do all four. It's nonsense that they face "little increased effort" and "little increased risk", as a lowsec builder needs to expend no effort and suffer no risk.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#855 - 2014-03-21 17:27:06 UTC
Krom Thomson wrote:

you mean logging in having a intel network that tells you a hostels is coming from 40 jumps away the station only you guys can dock in the best rats in the game the best rocks in the game the best moons in the game...... but yet when you null pricks get bored the first thing you do is come up and suicide gank indy and mission runners. and ***** cause you are so hard done by with all your supers and tech moons.

worthless highseccers often compare the risk that a nullsec miner faces when he and hundreds of his friends expend constant effort to reduce their risks, to their risk when they are afk mining without taking any steps to reduce their risk whatsoever

given any amount of effort you are always, always, always far safer in highsec than in nullsec.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Egravant Alduin
republic fleet battle support
#856 - 2014-03-21 17:27:36 UTC
One question for everybody.

Will you be able to reprocess stuff in low sec at higher ratio?

For example at 0.4 sec you ll get 60% at 0.1 90% and at null 100%?

If not then i suggest it

Feel the wrath of the GECKO!

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#857 - 2014-03-21 17:28:58 UTC
Egravant Alduin wrote:
One question for everybody.

Will you be able to reprocess stuff in low sec at higher ratio?

For example at 0.4 sec you ll get 60% at 0.1 90% and at null 100%?

If not then i suggest it

This is already the case. You can anchor intensive refining arrays in lowsec, which give you 8% better refines than highsec.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Rastlor
Torpedo Industries
#858 - 2014-03-21 17:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rastlor
Whilst not wanting to turn this into a Grr Goons thread is there not a certain amount of irony in on one hand pleading poverty and demanding CCP fix broken Null, introduce fields and farms, increase bounties...

Whilst in the other hand running one of the most generous SRP programs effectively paying double for pvp losses, free carriers, free skillbooks etc etc.

There is plenty of people that mine in Null (I've killed many of them) even within Goonswarm if there lucid they are pretty much safe, sure a cloakie can stop them some but whatever.

JF's should not be able to carry Compressed Ore or have a special bay which can limits the amount they can. In that way conflict is driven by having to move freighters into Low Sec for tranfer to a Rorq (which is somewhat lacking in utility at the moment).
Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#859 - 2014-03-21 17:36:46 UTC
Krom Thomson wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".

i think you should reconsider your messaging there...


I think you should improve your understanding of the phrase "risk versus reward".


Which risk?


The inherent risk that comes with living in nullsec.

you mean logging in having a intel network that tells you a hostels is coming from 40 jumps away the station only you guys can dock in the best rats in the game the best rocks in the game the best moons in the game...... but yet when you null pricks get bored the first thing you do is come up and suicide gank indy and mission runners. and ***** cause you are so hard done by with all your supers and tech moons.


We've kicked the same 0.0 retreads in the balls for so long that we occasionally gotta find new people to stomp and where else are we supposed to find them but high sec?

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#860 - 2014-03-21 17:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Emuar
The majority of people just do not see the larger picture. Absolutely no reason to quarrel and to increase hostility between different groups of players. These changes are just an improvement of the game called “Lords and peasants”. These peasants are found not only in highsec but in null as well. Though some of them think that they are the lords.

Only real “masters” will benefit after these changes, those who can set tax on ore refining in null outposts. Just set tax at level that peasant could get a bit higher refine rate than is posible in highsec or inside pos and he will use your outpost service instead compresing valuable ore and shiping to highsec to refine. Everyone will be happy, peasant will get the same amount of minerals as now (because of ore adjustment) with 70+% refining and his master will get few percents too.

Will we see more miners in null??? Dont think so, all low end ore will be imported from highsec just in other form and these low end minerals will be cheaper for outposts owners, because only they can get max output from refining. Sure nullsec cartels wont control all items manufacturing but they can pick some “key” ships, modules and noone from low, wh or highsec can compete with them at profitability to do it. Why player outposts get higher refine rates than pos? I saw some comments about (obviously) risk vs reward, but in reality owning outpost is safer than pos, because you can get outpost back after losing it, while pos is destructable. Yes outpost and upgrades are expensive, why to not make them cheaper?

Changes to modules, ships reprocesing - thats a bit complicated. It is good if you think that “gun mining” was bad design and maybe thats true, but on other hand it gives versatility in game, other option to get some minerals (even null minerals in highsec) for small scale manufacturing. So these people who bother to loot and salvage npc wreck will be nerfed. Last “Great loot nerf” as some people call it was not so great if you compare with what will come. Maybe removing all but meta4 mods from drop tables would be best option with upcoming changes.

Sorry for my bad english


welcome to "Lords and peasants" online?[/left]

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....