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[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

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Tactical-Retreat
#621 - 2014-03-21 16:01:59 UTC
Well if you use metrics to justify having a gameplay mechanic that makes you unable to deal damage during 35seconds in the middle of a fight...

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#622 - 2014-03-21 16:11:48 UTC
Reinforced Metal Scrap wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tulara wrote:
Drop the reload time to at least 20 (while all the others weapons systems are at 10 LOL), or this missile launcher will remain unused.


Considering that RLMLs are being used more now than at any previous point in their history, I think "remain unused" is a bit of an exaggeration. Big smile

FYI the last 6 weeks have been the 6 weeks with the highest ever amount of PVP damage dealt by RLMLs, and the other metrics are all backing this up. There are obviously still UI and usability tweaks to be made but overall I am extremely happy with the current state of RLMLs.

What about RHMLs, any metrics on those?

There's less history to compare to here obviously. The usage of RHMLs has been fairly steady since they were released. The ratio of pvp RHML use compared to Cruise and Torp use is pretty similar to the ratio of pvp RLML use compared to HML and HAM use, which is about what we'd expect.

Altrue wrote:
Well if you use metrics to justify having a gameplay mechanic that makes you unable to deal damage during 35seconds in the middle of a fight...

Obviously the gameplay style associated with Rapid Missile Launchers isn't everyone's cup of tea, but modules don't need to appeal to every player. There are plenty of people for whom the extra damage and precision of rapid launchers is well worth the reload time, for other players there are other launcher options to choose from.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

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#623 - 2014-03-21 16:54:16 UTC
when are we going to see RCML for the phoenix?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

#624 - 2014-03-21 17:15:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kynric
I am in the group which has been using rlml's. While I enjoy the burst damage I really do not enjoy that I have lost the ability in many situations to choose the ammo based on what I am fighting. The broad selection of ammo options and the choices they create are what I like most about missiles and sadly this launcher redesign has all but eliminated that option. A warhead swap option (replacing the current number of missiles with the same number of a different type) with a timer similar to the reload timers enjoyed by other weapon systems would restore those interesting choices and make me much happier with the weapon system.

It should also be said that much of my utilization of rlmls has to do with how absolutely awful heavy missiles are. While I am satisfied with HAMs they are not a good selection for many situations which I encounter. Therefore the use of RLMLs should not be interpreted as complete happiness with them as the effective loss of ability to adapt my ammo to battlefield circumstances takes away what I like most about missiles. That loss is less felt on ships heavily bonuses to a particular ammo but is still present even there.
Shadow Cartel
#625 - 2014-03-21 17:45:44 UTC
having to use popularity metrics like that just means you have no idea what you're doing
#626 - 2014-03-21 18:45:01 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Considering that RLMLs are being used more now than at any previous point in their history, I think "remain unused" is a bit of an exaggeration. Big smile

RLMLs remain unused for PvE, and that's not an exaggeration.

Quote:
The usage of RHMLs has been fairly steady since they were released. The ratio of pvp RHML use compared to Cruise and Torp use is pretty similar to the ratio of pvp RLML use compared to HML and HAM use, which is about what we'd expect.

That isn't necessarily an endorsement. As with RLMLs, RHMLs are effectively dead for PvE when compared to cruise missiles and even torpedoes (which could use a balance pass with respect to damage application).

Several additional points with respect to RHMLs:
• Battleship hull bonuses such as missile velocity, explosion radius and explosion velocity should be extended to include RHMLs if they're going to be left essentially "as is" (they were originally excluded based on the first iteration of RHMLs).
• The launcher graphic should be redesigned so that the launchers are facing out instead of forward, similar to cruise missiles and torpedoes. RHMLs look more than a little bizarre when mounted on ships like the Scorpion or Rattlesnake. In addition, RHMLs are missing an animation to collapse the weapon when going to warp.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Shadow Cartel
#627 - 2014-03-21 18:52:22 UTC
but pve is irrelevant
Minmatar Republic
#628 - 2014-03-21 19:47:53 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
but pve is irrelevant


winner
#629 - 2014-03-21 21:20:52 UTC
Quote:
Obviously the gameplay style associated with Rapid Missile Launchers isn't everyone's cup of tea, but modules don't need to appeal to every player. There are plenty of people for whom the extra damage and precision of rapid launchers is well worth the reload time, for other players there are other launcher options to choose from.


So, you've created a niche weapon system for one job, and then you've told the whinners to choose another weapon system that won't do the job?
Quote:
There's less history to compare to here obviously. The usage of RHMLs has been fairly steady since they were released. The ratio of pvp RHML use compared to Cruise and Torp use is pretty similar to the ratio of pvp RLML use compared to HML and HAM use, which is about what we'd expect.

Mind the statistics. You can be drowned in a lake with average 50cm depth.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

#630 - 2014-03-21 21:30:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Mind the statistics.

"Lies, damned lies and statistics."
Since when did we start designing ships and/or modules strictly for PvP purposes?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

#631 - 2014-03-21 22:25:07 UTC
Quote:
Since when did we start designing ships and/or modules strictly for PvP purposes?


EvE is PvP game. Rest is just shards.

Rapids were designed for smaller targets than ships using them. Its niche, for PvE weapon platform must be universal. I know, with long reload you can't choose dmg which is main missile advatage, but they are happy with that and i don't think you can't change it. Missile user here.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

#632 - 2014-03-22 01:02:52 UTC
CCP Fozzie, how can we go about engaging in a meaningful dialog about missiles?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

RvB - RED Federation
#633 - 2014-03-22 10:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
CCP Fozzie wrote:
FYI the last 6 weeks have been the 6 weeks with the highest ever amount of PVP damage dealt by RLMLs, and the other metrics are all backing this up. There are obviously still UI and usability tweaks to be made but overall I am extremely happy with the current state of RLMLs.

Because there is no alternative. What a completely useless statistic. Seriously though, what else would you fit? Heavy missiles? That has to be a joke right? They are even worse. You fit HMs you'll get killed by an Ibis.

I'm in the group that uses RLML on my Caracal fits. Not because I like using them though. I use them because there's no other choice. HMs are just not good when engaging frigates and other cruisers. You cannot take the fact I have done damage with that type of launcher as an indicator that the launcher works well. What kind of logic is that??

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Obviously the gameplay style associated with Rapid Missile Launchers isn't everyone's cup of tea, but modules don't need to appeal to every player. There are plenty of people for whom the extra damage and precision of rapid launchers is well worth the reload time, for other players there are other launcher options to choose from.

It's almost as if you're completely oblivious to just how bad it is. Do you even play this game? Have you tried roaming in a Caracal with RLML? It is a horribly mechanic. You somehow keep trying to justify it for no good reason. In fact, you're not even acknowledging there's a problem with it.

And NO, there are no other launchers to choose from. Maybe if you hadn't completely broken HMs, we'd have another launcher but as it is, we don't.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Fozzie, how can we go about engaging in a meaningful dialog about missiles?

We can't. According to Fozzie it's all peachy.

For medium sized launchers you have RLML, HAM and HM. We know the damage application of the heavy missile is just appalling. The applied damage, even on webbed and TPd frigates is just beyond horrendous and even on cruisers it's below average. The fact people pick RLML doesn't mean they are great. It just means the other system is worse.

If we take your popularity stat we can also conclude that in the last few months HM have never been so bad, since even less people are using them. Maybe it should give you an indication of just how broken that system is.

Or alternatively you could just ditch the useless popularity stats and actually acknowledge the feedback you've been given.
#634 - 2014-03-22 15:15:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tulara wrote:
Drop the reload time to at least 20 (while all the others weapons systems are at 10 LOL), or this missile launcher will remain unused.


Considering that RLMLs are being used more now than at any previous point in their history, I think "remain unused" is a bit of an exaggeration. Big smile

FYI the last 6 weeks have been the 6 weeks with the highest ever amount of PVP damage dealt by RLMLs, and the other metrics are all backing this up. There are obviously still UI and usability tweaks to be made but overall I am extremely happy with the current state of RLMLs.

Any weapon system works in a gang of 30 where your just added dps. Doesn't mean it is good..

And yes, as others have stated, people may be using RLML simply because they are the best out of a bunch of mediocre options.

Just for comparisons sake - what was the usage of RLML in PVP over the six weeks vs this time last year?
Devs always asks for valid, clear reasons for change we want something changed. Yet Devs don't show players the same courtesy and simply say it is so and we have to accept it.



Quote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Obviously the gameplay style associated with Rapid Missile Launchers isn't everyone's cup of tea, but modules don't need to appeal to every player. There are plenty of people for whom the extra damage and precision of rapid launchers is well worth the reload time, for other players there are other launcher options to choose from.

Yes the sandbox is DEAD. We now play the way Devs say because having modules usable by a majority and being versatile is not the right way to go.
Reminiscent of the recent capital tracking nerf, buff 1 dread and nerf 2 others.


Medium Missile options,, VERY VERY limited.
From outright BAD to usable in limited situations. Ready up a Phoenix and be ready for the abuse and laughter.
Do the same to lasers, hybrids and projectiles as you have done to missiles; you would very quickly have no game to worry about, as people would quit on masse.


Try a fair comparison.
Give back the old RLML with -50% capacity and the old firing rate.
See how Burst Rapids compare when there is "choice".

FYI; CCP Fozzie, you should spend more time thinking about what your writing and less writing what you're thinking.
You often come across as very narrow minded.

Quote:
Arthur Aihaken
CCP Fozzie, how can we go about engaging in a meaningful dialog about missiles?
It has been had, CCP Fozzie said it is so, we accept it. End dialogue.


Is catering for the few and ignoring the majority good business practice??

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Caldari State
#635 - 2014-03-22 18:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
rlml are the only weapon system left for missle users that you can hope of killing those pesky ( buffed to infinity and a lil bit beyond) ceptors so no wonder that we see a nice "use percentage" on those
and there is that "UI and usability " problem - yeah 35 seconds reload - so instead of creating some fancy new mechanic to allow faster reload we play a lil bit with overheating and how it affects those launchers ie. they gain a much bigger rof bonus from it and they can oh for a longer but we revert the stats to the pre rewok state - this way we get functional pve launchers and a deadly on demand burst weapon

ps. CCP why u hate missles so much ?
#636 - 2014-03-22 18:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Vinyl 41 wrote:
and there is that "UI and usability " problem - yeah 30 seconds reload…

Well, 35 seconds - but who's counting… (wait, that would be me!) Lol
Can we at least get an animation for the rapid heavy launcher? Better yet, can we flatten it so that it doesn't stick out so much on the hulls?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Caldari State
#637 - 2014-03-22 19:00:48 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Vinyl 41 wrote:
and there is that "UI and usability " problem - yeah 30 seconds reload…

Well, 35 seconds - but who's counting… (wait, that would be me!) Lol
Can we at least get an animation for the rapid heavy launcher? Better yet, can we flatten it so that it doesn't stick out so much on the hulls?

i was allways wondering why those never got any animation
ps. fixed that lil ugly thing you pointed out
#638 - 2014-03-22 20:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Vinyl 41 wrote:
i was allways wondering why those never got any animation
ps. fixed that lil ugly thing you pointed out

Oversight? From what I could tell it's the only main weapon system that doesn't have an animation. I was actually hoping it had changed to 30 seconds and that I'd missed the memo...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

#639 - 2014-03-22 23:58:23 UTC
Vinyl 41 wrote:
rlml are the only weapon system left for missle users that you can hope of killing those pesky ( buffed to infinity and a lil bit beyond) ceptors so no wonder that we see a nice "use percentage" on those
and there is that "UI and usability " problem - yeah 35 seconds reload - so instead of creating some fancy new mechanic to allow faster reload we play a lil bit with overheating and how it affects those launchers ie. they gain a much bigger rof bonus from it and they can oh for a longer but we revert the stats to the pre rewok state - this way we get functional pve launchers and a deadly on demand burst weapon

ps. CCP why u hate missles so much ?

At a quick glance what you are asking for is the same thing that has been asked for over and over since November last year. Unfortunately it seems CCP Fozzie is not prepared to look at alternatives. He is now vindicated in his statement that "Burst Mechanic Will Be Fun" by metrics (which by the way only show what they are programmed to show). If he really had the best interests of RLML in mind he would take notice of statments like;
Quote:
It should also be said that much of my utilization of rlmls has to do with how absolutely awful heavy missiles are. While I am satisfied with HAMs they are not a good selection for many situations which I encounter. Therefore the use of RLMLs should not be interpreted as complete happiness with them
from someone who actually uses them.

CCP does not want feedback regarding the Burst Mechanic, unless it is positive. As there is no real positive feedback it is being manufactured by metrics.
So over the last 6 weeks, metrics has seen the highest usage of RLML "EVER".
This can mean many things;
Prior to Rubicon and the RLML burst mechanic very few people used RLML. So even a very low usage number shows a high uptake statistically.
The interceptor buffs are too high and people are getting desperate enough to use RLML as they are advertised as the answer to killing fast frigates.
Many people who used to use RLML prior to Rubicon have had them sitting around for months, unable to sell them except at a loss so have decided (like me) to use them till the ship gets killed then move on.

I have more scenarios but you guys have to be tired of me blabbering on by now so I'll leave you with;

These few words tell me EVERYTHING needed about the future of RLML;
Quote:
CCP Fozzie; for other players there are other launcher options to choose from.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Minmatar Republic
#640 - 2014-03-23 06:26:00 UTC
Love the theorizing about how bad cruiser sized missiles are when you run into HAM sacrilege gangs on a daily...
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