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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Adellle Nadair
Nuclear Midnight
#181 - 2014-03-20 17:38:47 UTC
Please check your math for the ore compression. Currently on TQ when you compress ore no minerals are lost.

Example:

Crokite gives 2.652 Zydrine/Unit of Crokite ( 663 / 250 = 2.652 )
Multiplying this by total number of units used to compress Crokite, 1250, gives us 3315, which is the amount of Zydrine given when refining Compressed Crokite.

Here is the issue. When you compress ore in the new system MINERALS ARE LOST.

Dev Blog Changes:

Crokite gives 3.67 Zydrine/Unit of Crokite ( 367 / 100 = 3.67 )
Multiply by the unchanged compression amount, 1250, and you get 4587.5.

However the stated refined amount of Zydrine for Crokite stated in the dev blog is 4579. This gives a loss of 8.5 units. This type of loss due to compression occurs in every instance using the new compression numbers.

If it is the goal of this change to cause a loss due to compression, please clearly state this in the dev blog. Moving compressed ore already has a sizable cost in fuel and time. Please do not add the additional cost of losing minerals from using compression.

If you did not intend for this loss due to compression to occur, please publish an updated dev blog with the corrected refined mineral amounts.

Thank you,

A side note:

- When publishing spreadsheets that many people will pour over, please keep the order of the elements the same in each sheet.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#182 - 2014-03-20 17:40:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Steve Ronuken wrote:

Don't suppose you have a list of the minerals required for an ML 1 erebus? Just to save me doing the addition?


edit: this is more helpful:

3,599,916,600
875,563,290
299,882,520
52,772,370
14,745,675
2,629,725
1,308,615

In descending mineral order (trit -> mega)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#183 - 2014-03-20 17:43:12 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I'm not sure I like changing all instances of Refining to Reprocessing.

It doesn't make sense to reprocess un-processed ore and ice.


Yeah, I'd say that anything having to do with raw materials should be Refining, and anything having to do with Scrapmetal Processing should be Reprocessing.

Other than that nit (and my reflexive aversion to insta-refining)? These look like an excellent set of changes.


Yes, that is one discussion we internally had as well. We tried to find a term that would encompess both reprocessing and refining, but with no avail.

The point of merging those two terms however is to make it clear it is the same process and station facility / service ( you can't reprocess both ores and materials at the same time at the moment, and both "reprocess" and "refining" are appearing under the Star Map under the "service" tab).


Well, what about just "transform"?
Then you'll have a "Matter Transformation Station Service" or "Matter Transformation Array" ... it's sci-fi so these could pretty much do anything. :-D
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2014-03-20 17:46:37 UTC
As someone who trained up a scrapmetal processing V/ Cyber V alt for the purpose of compression, this change REALLY bites.

Since let's face it. With only a bit over 50% potential refine from modules and ships even with max skills, nearly nothing is going to be refined. Some modules could be reprocessed to mineral levels higher than market value with excellent skills, plus the uses of mineral compression via module. And now both uses are gone.

If I had not just transferred a new char onto that account, I'd be removing the recurring subscriptions from it, as he's now basically worthless.

Any plans to make scrapmetal processing not worthless?
Rola Lennt
WelTraum Corp
#185 - 2014-03-20 17:47:18 UTC
Can someone tell me why they don't just remove the compression from Rorquals?
I mean will anyone seriously compress in a sieged Rorq while sitting in a pos that could just anchor a compressor array?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#186 - 2014-03-20 17:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Ms Michigan wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

But in all cases, Starbase Reprocessing Arrays are better than NPC stations. As mentioned before, we have authored the Starbase Reprocessing Array as if you had perfect skills; so in reality they give you a 75.3% and 78.1% reprocesing rate.

I'm not understanding how, with perfect refining your chart says that you will refine in an NPC station @ 72.4% and starbase refining will be at 52/54% where is the extra 23% of yield coming from?


Ore amount increases? I am losing this point as well...


That's ok, I'm apparently very good at confusing people.

NPC station base reprocessing rate can either be 35% or 50%. After the change, with max skills and the implant you will get 72.4% from a 50% base NPC station.

However, we wanted base Reprocessing Array rates to be higher than NPC stations, thus at 52 and 54%. However, since skills are not taken into account for those, we set them up to artificially count as if you have max skills + implant, thus giving them 75.3% and 78.1%.

Outposts will still be on top of those, with a base rate of 60% when fulling upgraded. As such, with max skills and the implant you'll get a maximum reprocessing rate of 86.8% there.

Is that less confusing now? P


So let me get this straight.
Joe high sec mission runner, who is currently getting 100% refine on modules, will now have to have a hugely expensive implant, plus weeks of skills, to achieve a 27.6% nerf in his mission loot income.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#187 - 2014-03-20 17:51:50 UTC
I'm just starting to dissect your dev blog on mining:

"Perfect refine reduces the incentive to train most reprocessing skills, since it's possible to get to cap without maximizing them all. As an indirect consequence, it discourages players specializing in this particular activity." CCP.

Short answer: Complete twaddle!!

Longer answer: Serious industrial pilots will want and need ore reprocessing skills to enable them to fit T2 mining crystals to their mining ships. If not all they will probably want the ones for Veld, Scor, Omb, Plag, Pyro, Ker, Jas, Hem, & Hed all trained to lvl four currently. There is no accurate reasoning to suggest that perfect refine discourages pilots from training the ore processing skills. Utter humbug.

It is possible to use differing levels of different skills in differing combinations possibly in conjunction with hardwirings and implants to attain perfect yield currently. Standings are also currently required with NPC's to bring the waste factor down to zero. EVE Online is complicated and adult mature players are intelligent and understand this and enjoy it. Otherwise we would F off to WoW. Hardwirings are used in other ways to increase pilots capabilities. I see nothing wrong with this.

This reeks of dumbing down in combination with clawing at the walls desperately trying to find a resolution the 'extra materials' debacle from the ship rebalancing much of which was unnecessary and damaging to the economy of New Eden.

Production in nullsec is largely an unpopular activity and unnecessary except for production of Capital ships. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. This will do as much good as the recent increases to minerals in nullsec rocks.

I have only just started reading this blog so maybe it won't be as bad as it looks. But it probably will be. LOL.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#188 - 2014-03-20 17:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

So let me get this straight.
Joe high sec mission runner, who is currently getting 100% refine on modules, will now have to have a hugely expensive implant, plus weeks of skills, to achieve a 27.6% nerf in his mission loot income.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

i don't think you grasped how scrapmetal works in the current system, implants don't affect it and you're getting 55% of what you get now at most (only scrapmetal processing, which is now 2% affects scrapmetal, nothing else, so 50% *1.10=55%)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
#189 - 2014-03-20 17:55:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir HyperChrist
Not that I don't want any change, but this change destroys the way my corp builds capital ships now. It'll bog down a now smooth running machine. My corp won't be the only one, so expect empire-built capital ships to get more expensive and more rare.

1) my current setup: area-buy minerals over a few weeks, low-price long-term buyorder
2) haul them to two or three station to compress into guns, Red Frog helps with the haulage
3) Jumpfreighter them to a low-sec station, and reprocess the guns into materials
4) build capital components, and then capital ships
5) sell those ships

The new process will be quite a bit tougher:
1) area-buy ores. The miners will have to learn that ores are more valuable than minerals!
2) haul those ores to a station in a system with a pos: 1 veld has a size of 0.1 m3, and contains 3 trit, so 0.033 m3/trit, which is triple the volume as veld, so triple empire haulage!
3) haul all those ores to a high-sec pos. tough to get, corp standings etc: can I buy corp standing for this, like people can now buy concord standing for pvp-ing in highsec?
4) Manually haul ores and compress: we often have more than 1 stack of trit, due to the 2-B unit limit, so I expect 30+ freighter hauls if it were trit, 60 (correction 90) freighter hauls carrying the veld!
5) haul the compressed ores back to station
6) about 50% more JF jumps, due to decreased compression compared to guns
7) jump to lowsec station, dock and unload
8) Haul the compressed ores to a low-sec pos for refining Extra risk
9) haul the refined minerals back to station 30 freighter hauls in lowsec
10) build capital comps and ships
11) sell them


Again, it destroys my corps reason to exist. What 5 or 6 people can do now by themselves and some redfrog contracts, will after this take 2 or 3 times the effort and people, will become triple as tedious, and in the end won't be done at all.

CCP Ytterbium: consider above added complexity, is this really what you want?

If it stays like this, I'll stop my capital ventures, I should be able to live off the value of my capital bpo's for a few years. But for that I need someone to sell them to for at least NPC market value, which noone will pay by then:

where can I get reimbursement for my capital bpo's?

I'll find you at fanfest :)

-Chris
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#190 - 2014-03-20 17:57:49 UTC
Regarding the rorqual: I understand that you guys are punting on rorqs for the summer expansion, which is fine. However, perhaps I could convince you to do some quick, easy changes to improve the Quality of Life for the rorqual? I have two proposals in mind, both of which require a single row of database fixtures to be changed in the dogma attributes table. Or in the YML files; whatever you use internally for that stuff.

PROPOSITION ONE: Reduce heavy water usage for Industrial Cores
Right now, rorquals use 563 heavy water per siege cycle at all fives (and nearly double that, worst case.) This works out to 64,857.6 m^3 of heavy water per day of operation. This is a nontrivial amount of materiel to have to move around just to provide bonuses. Having a max leadership, max rorqual skilled character amongst my corp, I had recently toyed with the idea of providing "public" bonuses to new members of my alliance, but the amount of hauling and logistics I'd have to do in order to keep myself in heavy water for providing bonuses made the idea infeasible. (The cost wasn't really a factor; it ended up being about 30m/day, a trivial amount.)

PROPOSITION TWO: Eliminate siege requirement for rorquals to provide maximum bonuses. The benefits would be similar to proposition one.

I feel either of these suggestions would provide a minor quality of life boost for rorqual boosters and would ease the transitional period between the summer expansion and when the actual balance pass could occur.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Karaburan
Perkone
Caldari State
#191 - 2014-03-20 17:58:04 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
I've been reading through this thread and what I'm not seeing a lot of people comment on is loot reprocs.

I'm sure CCP has access to the amount of minerals that are currently being added to the market through this sort of mining, but I without knowing how much are coming from this method, its going to be pretty hard to fathom just how badly this is going to affect the market. If people were to stop refining all modules for mins that are dropped as loot, this could have a huge affect on the mineral market and having prices going up a good bit.

As another poster said, this is also going to drastically decrease the price for some meta modules (ex: smartbombs that are otherwise valueless). I think people are worried about the wrong thing here (ie minerals from ore) as what CCP has shown is that despite these changes that profession is going to basically stay the same.

I'm just not sure what the point of introducing something like the MTU was if they were going to make looting not profitable, or not worth the time...

Also, with people compressing ore now as a viable profession, I wonder how much minerals that will take off the market since the ore won't be refined and thus also drive the price up. I expect to see all mineral prices rise by 10-20% if not 30% depending on how all this shakes out.


I think that you are right that there will be secondary and tertiary effects on the market as a result of this. However, I don't think salvaging as a profession is in danger. There will be a drop in motive to go and scoop up your loot. It will mostly affect the ratters/mission runners who just drop an MTU and don't bother salvaging. The effect of this is that the drop in module prices should be offset by the increase in prices for the salvage materials. So, salvaging as a profession should remain similar in profitability over time.

Also, +1 CCP. Not quite out of the park, but definitely a home run. keep going on this track.

P. S.

Please make rorquals/orcas fun to fly, not just sitting in a POS AFK. Would it really break the game if Rorquals and Orcas could fight and defend their poor little miners? Considering their cost they should have a reason to risk them in the fight. Eve is about fighting for resources in any manner feasible and the industrial command/capital ships should be in the mix.
Orion Guardian
#192 - 2014-03-20 17:58:32 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Blog has been updated with new compressed ore volumes, and fixed typo with outpost reprocessing values on TQ.

Are there any changes to the effectiveness of ice compression? Those tables aren't updated - I assume because they're not changing but I want to be sure.


Yep, not being changed.


Then on that table Mercoxit remains unchanged as well?

And: Are there any changes to the time needed to compress? The BPs hat run times, which made compressing Ice kinda obsolete (you could mine it faster than you could compress it ;))
Orion Guardian
#193 - 2014-03-20 17:59:19 UTC
Sir HyperChrist wrote:

6) about 50% more JF jumps, due to decreased compression compared to guns


-Chris


check the new volumes for compression, that might have changed ;)
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#194 - 2014-03-20 17:59:59 UTC
Orion Guardian wrote:

And: Are there any changes to the time needed to compress? The BPs hat run times, which made compressing Ice kinda obsolete (you could mine it faster than you could compress it ;))

compression is instant now

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#195 - 2014-03-20 18:00:45 UTC
CCP Ytterbium, if someone owns a Medium Intensive Refinery before the change, what will happen? Reimburse or convert automatically to the new compression array?
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#196 - 2014-03-20 18:01:49 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Ms Michigan wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

But in all cases, Starbase Reprocessing Arrays are better than NPC stations. As mentioned before, we have authored the Starbase Reprocessing Array as if you had perfect skills; so in reality they give you a 75.3% and 78.1% reprocesing rate.

I'm not understanding how, with perfect refining your chart says that you will refine in an NPC station @ 72.4% and starbase refining will be at 52/54% where is the extra 23% of yield coming from?


Ore amount increases? I am losing this point as well...


That's ok, I'm apparently very good at confusing people.

NPC station base reprocessing rate can either be 35% or 50%. After the change, with max skills and the implant you will get 72.4% from a 50% base NPC station.

However, we wanted base Reprocessing Array rates to be higher than NPC stations, thus at 52 and 54%. However, since skills are not taken into account for those, we set them up to artificially count as if you have max skills + implant, thus giving them 75.3% and 78.1%.

Outposts will still be on top of those, with a base rate of 60% when fulling upgraded. As such, with max skills and the implant you'll get a maximum reprocessing rate of 86.8% there.

Is that less confusing now? P

That makes a lot more sense now. Although I still don't understand why someone with no skill can suddenly achieve almost the maximum reprocessing rates compared to someone who has spent literally years (as all will need to be level 5 now) maxing the refining skills.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#197 - 2014-03-20 18:03:12 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:


We all know that a lot of them make money from mining, processing and then selling the minerals or making stuff. If we undermine their ability to do this how many of them are going to stay around and get more into the game?



which really is by far the most boring activity in eve. i guess more people quit because mining is boring than anything else.

(sadly) there are plenty people around that will buy ore or support newbie miners in mining corps.



Yes but it is probably the most profitable thing a new player can do when they just start out, they're introduced very early on in the tutorials and they give them a good stable income (about 2 million an hour) while their training up for other stuff like combat ships. If they aren't making much money then their going to give up.


Did you miss the part where base ore values are being increased to compensate? The blog makes it very clear that reducing mining income is not an intended result.

Alhough obviously not quite clear enough. What?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Plug in Baby
Broken Hearts Love Chocolate
#198 - 2014-03-20 18:03:56 UTC
Sir HyperChrist wrote:

Again, it destroys my corps reason to exist. What 5 or 6 people can do now by themselves and some redfrog contracts, will after this take 2 or 3 times the effort and people, will become triple as tedious, and in the end won't be done at all.

CCP Ytterbium: consider above added complexity, is this really what you want?


And you'll be making considerably less ISK as null sec will be working more efficiently without having to use a POS and saving 100-300m per capital compared to your build costs.

At least I won't need all my slots on my second account, to the BPO ISK retirement fund!

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.

Cheekything
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2014-03-20 18:04:28 UTC
This is the dumbest idea I have heard from CCP since the 100$ cargo shorts.

You want to promote null sec industry don't nerf everything and nerf null sec slightly less.

The 30 odd billion isk you have to sink into an minmatar outpost to tier 3 with maxium skill and implat 6% should net 100% refine

In low sec with a POS 90% and high/low sec npc station 80%.

But compressed ore/ice should be 100% 90% and 80% based on where it was mined not where you refine it.

You want to promote industry in null sec give them a huge advantage which still carries a huge risk, not here is what you used to make and here is a fraction of that you'll make now that's dumb.

Sorry but if anything high sec mining needs a boost and null sec mining need a huge overhaul since botters were banned not a nerf you'll kill most the industry that has tried to replace the dark days of botted minerals by causing a huge inflation of the prices.

Also for the love of everything good in eve introduce an easy way to compress minerals that isn't ore or 425 rail based already, we dont care if it requires a rorqual and the industrial mod but we've been asking for a long time now and nothing.

Trit 1,000 m3 to 1m3 , pyrite to 1000m3 to 5m3 etc etc just do the maths make us happy make the industrial life easier by that and you'll get more than just super caps built in null sec.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2014-03-20 18:05:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
Weaselior wrote:
a mere 200 days to max out refining skills :suicide:


Which is why that particular change is ridiculous in that aspect. And even with those perfect skills, you will stil need perfect standings on top of the necessity to use a reprocessing implant to net the same yield you can in empire space right now.

This is not an example of good design, as it places another tremendous barrier of entry to a young player who would like to get involved with mining and industry in the empire space.

If anything, this part of the proposed change is a buff to CCP's revenue that will be attained through the burden of 200 days of extra skill training every industrialist will need to take to remain competitive and profitable.

Sure, this might net CCP extra revenue, but then again, we are increasingly getting pushed towards a New Eden populated by armies of alts. Is CCP really want to delve down into that path as opposed to making the game accessible to new players?

Note that this ridiculous change will also drive producible module and ship prices up through the shifting/increasing mineral prices.

CCP needed to fix null industry for some time now. They could have done this through a direct and a sensible approach. But rather, this announcement indicates that CCP again ignores the principle of Occam's Razor, and tries to fix a broken aspect of the game by breaking down another aspect and profiting from it.

This will not really hurt null-sec industrialists (Translation: Capital ship producers) in any way or shape, as they can easily afford resources to mitigate and accommodate the ore refining nerf that has been proposed. This will rather, heavily burden the new guy, create more revenue for CCP, alienate new players from getting involed with mining and industry and effect the whole economy of New Eden.

Yes my friends, the axiom 'If it isn't broken, do not fix it' remains very much valid.

If the dev team's objective was creating a boosted revenue stream for CCP, then this is a splendid proposal that will greatly benefit CCP's gametime/PLEX income. New alts will have to be rapidly created and trained up for reprocessing by dedicated big-time industrialists, or existing training plans will have to be accommodated, increasing the pressure for any player to create more alts.

However, if the dev team's objective was fixing the null industry or balancing out empire industry and null industry, the changes I mentioned are terrible and they are not going to benefit players, seasoned or young, or game balance. Barring new players from profitable mining and industry and punishing the existing industrialists is a terrible decision.

So yes, please do not 'fix' empire reprocessing, but rather, focus your energies on fixing the problems that null industrialists are facing and rightly stopping the usage of mineral compression modules.

At this point, I'm asking myself "Why must I carry the burden of increasing PLEX/game timecode revenue stream for CCP as a player who has to maintain several accounts and alts already?"