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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Author
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#161 - 2014-03-20 17:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Althalus Stenory
Either I understand the fact you want / need to "change" the mechanics under reprocessing, by revaluating some advantages to some stuff already existing (ore compression / rorqual / station outposts etc) which is really great, but it's also, in my opinion, just an hidden way to "nerf" once again mineral people get from reprocessing.

Maybe I just don't get it (feel free to explain me why it's better, i'd really like to understand), but for now, the only positive points for me are :
- Better UI
- Useful modules / ship / outposts / new pos items.
- Simplify batchs size (all with 100 is just better)
- better use in some situations

And then,
- Mining is again more profitable (well, not sure it's a bad thing)
- and the classical "People do not use some kind of stuff, so we fix it by nerfing some other" thing (about ore compression mainly) (I should have said this :D)

No really, changes about ore / ice are really nice. The only thing I think is not that good is all about scrap metal processing and mineral compression that'll be not anymore used.

Another thing (I should be bad at maths...) :
With new dense veldspar refining rates : 100 dense veldspar give 457 trit.
So, with reprocessing with all skill at 5 in an NPC station (gives 69.575%?) I get 318 trit (317.95) so it's 3.74% less than before... instead of 2.8% as said in the devblog...
What am I doing wrong ? :o

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Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#162 - 2014-03-20 17:09:29 UTC
You really should make pos modules refining usie skills instead of flat bonus.

Keep the incentive to actually train those skills instead of using 1 day alt on a pos in hi sec
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#163 - 2014-03-20 17:10:53 UTC
Anys Thes'Realin wrote:

With how volatile the market will be, it seems like this would be as good of time as any to fix ship mineral costs and do away with the "Extra Materials" section. Merging these "Extra Materials" in with the regular materials (and thus affected by Mineral efficiency) would reduce the mineral costs on these T1 ships slightly, and partly alleviating the burden of a diminished Mineral supply.



Maybe, maybe not.

Because the way waste works is:

you have the base materials. The waste is a percentage of that added on top. you cannot reduce the mineral quantity below the base materials. If they add the extra materials to the base materials, you'll get more waste. (unless they reduce the extra materials to around 91%)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

seth Hendar
I love you miners
#164 - 2014-03-20 17:12:09 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
and as always, lowsec will get the biggest hit in the nuts......

CCP, why don't ou get rid of low directly instead of nerfing it every expansion?

nerf over nerf over nerf.......really?

this is already one of the most difficult place to live in, and it has the lowest income possibilitys, and you are making it worse EVERY SINGLE TIME....stop this

lowsec recieves the 54% pos refinery, a net buff

it's not nerfed

no, this thing will still be worse than station refining we have now, and said station refining will be nerfed, making the pos array better but still worse than the curent situation -> it's a nerf

and i don't even talk here about the alchemy, where it is also nerfed, providing a de facto buff to null
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#165 - 2014-03-20 17:13:35 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:

no, this thing will still be worse than station refining we have now, and said station refining will be nerfed, making the pos array better but still worse than the curent situation -> it's a nerf

and i don't even talk here about the alchemy, where it is also nerfed, providing a de facto buff to null

wrong, as mineral composition is buffed so 50% is the same as it used to be, the pos is better than the current situation

it is a buff

also, alchemy (once they fix the math goof) is precisely the same everywhere after this as it is now

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#166 - 2014-03-20 17:16:27 UTC
Weaselior wrote:

You'll sell your compressed ice in jita, then another null alliance buys it for the LO and brings it back.


That's more or less what I was suspecting would be the case. So now the refining skills that've been trained aren't as useful unless, for example, we were simultaneously hauling in other compressed ice blocks in order to make our own fuel blocks (like if we were using (for god knows whatever reason) Amarr towers in Minmatar-flavored space.
adriaans
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
#167 - 2014-03-20 17:16:57 UTC
Not happy with low-sec still being worst off, if not worse after this change, though I like the idea and concept of it.

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CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#168 - 2014-03-20 17:18:02 UTC
Blog has been updated with new compressed ore volumes, and fixed typo with outpost reprocessing values on TQ.
Atomic Option
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2014-03-20 17:20:43 UTC
This is pretty badass, and best of all it makes EVE more sensical and "real".

I think the only people who may lose are people who rely on reprocessing loot for income (i.e. noobs in nullsec). Some loot is better when sold, but some of it is (currently) more valuable reprocessed. Have you looked into how this will be affected?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#170 - 2014-03-20 17:21:29 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Blog has been updated with new compressed ore volumes, and fixed typo with outpost reprocessing values on TQ.



\o/ (can we get them as spreadsheets too?)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#171 - 2014-03-20 17:27:06 UTC
I like the changes. There are a couple of spots which seem rough, but in general this is well thought out.

Ore and Ice Refining: Advertised percent | amount of current ore/ice received | percent of max obtainable (Player Null = 100%)
NPC Station (with a highly skilled individual): 72.4% | 100% | 83.3%
POS High Sec: 75.3% | 104% | 86.7%
POS Low, Null, and Wormholes: 78.1% | 108% | 89.9%
Player Null Station (fully upgraded): 86.9% | 120% | 100%

The lack of any perfect refines is going to tweak some people, not that I am worried. The mass of ways to refine at different percentages is going to result in confusion and encourage development of specialized refiners. The confusion is the result of a varying landscape, which is great. Finding the most profitable place to refine will involve figuring out transportation costs. Player Owned Null Sec stations can be used to provide greater refining profits if the transportation costs are acceptable. The High Sec poses provide a small margin gain, but will need great volume to pay for their fuel. Wormholes will still be disadvantaged, but in comparison with Null Sec this time, and perhaps not too badly.

Some rough spots:
1) Scrapmetal processing requires refining skills, but the processing does not get a bonus from them. It might be best to remove the skill prerequisites.
2) Refining ore sounds correct. Reprocessing modules sounds correct. I don't see any gain from combining the names. Remove the scrapmetal prerequisites and no one should worry about whether they are learning refining or reprocessing. The station service can be named Refining and Reprocessing (R&R for short). The POS modules can make it clear that they do not deal with modules and ships by being named Refining Array. The name change lets us reprocess everything, except sometimes you cannot reprocess some things at reprocessing arrays because they are modules.
3) Rocqual's compression method needs to be explained better (instant, industrial mode?, Heavy Water?)
4) Alchemy as others have noted and CCP has acknowledge.
5) Perhaps a reconsideration of meta module mineral levels. This effects mission runners, and a moderate increase in these might put them closer to basic module mineral levels without exceeding it or introducing more minerals. Note this may be an intended nerf, but that could be acknowledged.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#172 - 2014-03-20 17:28:25 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Blog has been updated with new compressed ore volumes, and fixed typo with outpost reprocessing values on TQ.

Are there any changes to the effectiveness of ice compression? Those tables aren't updated - I assume because they're not changing but I want to be sure.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#173 - 2014-03-20 17:28:36 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Blog has been updated with new compressed ore volumes, and fixed typo with outpost reprocessing values on TQ.



Okay, with those ore compression values, mineral compression via 425mm rails will indeed be dead.
Kuda Timberline
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#174 - 2014-03-20 17:28:56 UTC
Correct me if I'm wrong (the forums are good at that) but this is a nerf to those of us that took the time to theory craft mineral compression using modules.

Do I dare call this another dumbing down of EVE?

Kuda Timberline

Co-host Capstable Podcast

electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2014-03-20 17:29:43 UTC
I'm not understanding this. You're saying you "want players to invest in reprocessing to get the most out of it." But you're having them now not get 100% refining ability after investing lots of skills but only 69% (no implant, 50% station). That's barely anything for all those skills. It's like the skills are worthless now. But you're also saying that people who did invest all of this will still get 2.8% less than they're currently getting. So the people who invested the most into refining will be getting less? You should make slightly more. Like 0.25% more or so than people are currently getting.
Furthermore, isn't this the deep deep future? Refining technology should be able to get you 100%!

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#176 - 2014-03-20 17:32:16 UTC
Kuda Timberline wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong (the forums are good at that) but this is a nerf to those of us that took the time to theory craft mineral compression using modules.

Do I dare call this another dumbing down of EVE?

you took the time to google all the work that was done years ago? this is much harder math-wise now: give me the ratio of ores to most accurately match a me1 erebus

you have ten minutes

(with railguns it is 35,400 railguns + some loose highends, something that took me under thirty seconds to figure out)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

strikethree
Technology Acquisition Collective
#177 - 2014-03-20 17:33:04 UTC
Look. No matter how you spin it, you are making things harder and taking things away from us. Here is a particularly revealing quote from the dev blog: "Decreasing reprocessing efficiency as a whole affects the outcome of mining, which really doesn’t need to be nerfed right now."

So you are planning on nerfing mining as well in the future.

Why do you insist on making things harder and harder and less lucrative to the players? Where is the payoff for me? Where is the ISK to be made for the average player?

The end result of all this nerfing will be a game that has no rewards for the person paying to have fun.

You nerfed ice belts, you nerfed rats, you nerfed missions, you nerfed the amount and type of loot,you nerfed anoms, when are you going to be giving instead of taking? The only thing I ever remember you (CCP/Eve Devs) giving is artillery and autocannons. They were pointless to train for years and a few years ago, you un-nerfed them... but then nerfed the tracking enhancer.

Really, why should I continue giving you my money? Why should I continue giving you my money when you continuously make the game less fun and plan on continuing to do so? What is the draw for the casual player? The person who works 12 hours a day? You LIVE this game so none if this is all that serious to you. I can only visit occasionally, so each nerf makes it more and more impossible for me to have any fun since I can not earn any resources.

Ultimately, this game will NOT survive if it is all about alliances and null sec. You need casual players. Lots of them. Stop trying to turn us away by removing the ability to get resources. Actually *think* about what it is like for us. We can not mine for 6 hours a day. We can not run dozens of a missions a day. We can not run alliances out in null (we can barely even participate in any of the battles!). Think about us please.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#178 - 2014-03-20 17:35:25 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Blog has been updated with new compressed ore volumes, and fixed typo with outpost reprocessing values on TQ.

Are there any changes to the effectiveness of ice compression? Those tables aren't updated - I assume because they're not changing but I want to be sure.


Yep, not being changed.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#179 - 2014-03-20 17:35:56 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, that is one discussion we internally had as well. We tried to find a term that would encompess both reprocessing and refining, but with no avail.

The point of merging those two terms however is to make it clear it is the same process and station facility / service ( you can't reprocess both ores and materials at the same time at the moment, and both "reprocess" and "refining" are appearing under the Star Map under the "service" tab).


So you cannot reprocess a module at a reprocessing array, but you can at a reprocessing station facility? Also I learn reprocessing so that I can refine ore which is called reprocessing because this is EVE. I learn Reprocessing Efficiency but it does not help reprocessing modules because it is really only for ores, and ices which you would refine. This change just trades one confusion for another. The station service can be Refining and Reprocessing (R&R for short). The reason why you had a hard time finding different terms is because English identifies them as separate processes and combining them will cause confusion.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#180 - 2014-03-20 17:38:24 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Kuda Timberline wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong (the forums are good at that) but this is a nerf to those of us that took the time to theory craft mineral compression using modules.

Do I dare call this another dumbing down of EVE?

you took the time to google all the work that was done years ago? this is much harder math-wise now: give me the ratio of ores to most accurately match a me1 erebus

you have ten minutes

(with railguns it is 35,400 railguns + some loose highends, something that took me under thirty seconds to figure out)



Or use a tool like, say: https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/compression/

I'll be updating it at some point in the near future so there's a version for compressed ores. (probably stick to the basics at least to start with).

Don't suppose you have a list of the minerals required for an ML 1 erebus? Just to save me doing the addition?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter