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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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mkint
#141 - 2014-03-20 16:46:23 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
I've been reading through this thread and what I'm not seeing a lot of people comment on is loot reprocs.

I'm sure CCP has access to the amount of minerals that are currently being added to the market through this sort of mining, but I without knowing how much are coming from this method, its going to be pretty hard to fathom just how badly this is going to affect the market. If people were to stop refining all modules for mins that are dropped as loot, this could have a huge affect on the mineral market and having prices going up a good bit.

As another poster said, this is also going to drastically decrease the price for some meta modules (ex: smartbombs that are otherwise valueless). I think people are worried about the wrong thing here (ie minerals from ore) as what CCP has shown is that despite these changes that profession is going to basically stay the same.

I'm just not sure what the point of introducing something like the MTU was if they were going to make looting not profitable, or not worth the time...

Also, with people compressing ore now as a viable profession, I wonder how much minerals that will take off the market since the ore won't be refined and thus also drive the price up. I expect to see all mineral prices rise by 10-20% if not 30% depending on how all this shakes out.


This'll only affect the loot that gets refined as it is. The meta 0 loot that was ever worth refining was nerfed a long long time ago. It'll drive down the cost of low meta items to worthlessness, yes, but they are pretty worthless anyway. Higher meta might go down a little bit because manufactured goods prices will go up because of the refining nerf (30% nerf on refining rates, I think the dev blog said), and the isk supply won't go up to match. Maybe mid meta price would go up to balance it, but probably not as much as normal market fluctuations.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#142 - 2014-03-20 16:47:05 UTC
My frustration with this is that it's so ungodly tedious to sell a bunch of modules these days that I typically just reprocess my entire station contents and sell the ore to save time.

Can we get some kind of "bulk sell to buy orders" to go with this? Entrepreneurs will still be able to make more money by doing individual sales, but given the bottom has just fallen out of reprocessing modules, it seems like anyone doing any kind of missions will have to spend even more time working on Carpal Tunnel V in stations.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2014-03-20 16:47:54 UTC
Ms Michigan wrote:


So people MAY NOT refine these?? Not sure. How does Fozzie plan to rebalance modules without unbalancing ships. Above my pay grade.


there is a whole lot of inconsistencys for meta 1-4 items, even more if you factor in T2. a whole lot of changes that can (and should) be done without changing any ship hulls whatsoever.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#144 - 2014-03-20 16:49:35 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
CCP does something positive. + 1



I know! finally! Blink



well other then UI stuffz

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Trinity Faetal
Faetal Interstellar Science Institute
#145 - 2014-03-20 16:50:52 UTC
Exactly what wormholes need to be relevant again.
Opner Dresden
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#146 - 2014-03-20 16:51:27 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Opner Dresden wrote:
I don't get how CCP can take industry, especially low/null industry, and just give it a clean across the board nerf. Not mining, mining gets a minor nerf... but industry... just got a swift kick in the balls and more hoops to jump through. So for any sizable project, not only do we get massive spreadsheets to do the actual build, sourcing materials gets one as well, since finding the right minerals in the ore compositions is going to be a pain. Or we can do it ourselves, and run another POS (yes, just what I wanted to do, and in HS no less) and haul the heaviest stuff in eve all around in pitiful amounts.

And if you're goal was to make rorqual compression more useful, you failed, miserably.



assuming Weaseliors numbers are correct you can get 14.4% more minerals from your ore in nullsec than in highsec. that does not really sound like a nerf to me.


Perhaps you missed it in my OP... INDUSTRY, not MINING, is getting a swift kick in the balls. Not a critical strike, but a nice grazing shot of pure pain... of getting to deal with even more logistics, spreadsheets, and POSes... all for no gain.
The Ironfist
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2014-03-20 16:53:39 UTC
CCP is this not going to hugely effect the looting and salvaging profession? As the loot value will drop significantly? Or is this intended?
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2014-03-20 16:56:22 UTC
Opner Dresden wrote:
[

Perhaps you missed it in my OP... INDUSTRY, not MINING, is getting a swift kick in the balls. Not a critical strike, but a nice grazing shot of pure pain... of getting to deal with even more logistics, spreadsheets, and POSes... all for no gain.


what ? you need to deal with less logistics. no more buying or making 425mm guns in jita. you simply buy precompressed ore. you then jump that ore out to nullsec (and you can put a shitload of it in a JF. you won't need a SINGLE pos on your own)

you have to adjust your spreadsheets, yes. but that is a one time thing (if you are clever enough to see the variables CCP left for future adjustments)

highsec and lowsec (heavy) industry are getting kicked in the balls. but rightfully so. nullsec industry has been **** for the last 10 years. time to change that.
Tarikla
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2014-03-20 16:57:04 UTC
Gospadin wrote:
My frustration with this is that it's so ungodly tedious to sell a bunch of modules these days that I typically just reprocess my entire station contents and sell the ore to save time.

Can we get some kind of "bulk sell to buy orders" to go with this? Entrepreneurs will still be able to make more money by doing individual sales, but given the bottom has just fallen out of reprocessing modules, it seems like anyone doing any kind of missions will have to spend even more time working on Carpal Tunnel V in stations.


+1 good idea. always sucks to have to select 20 different items, sell each 1 stack at a time.
Wylt Echerie
Les Suceuses de l'Ouest
Ishtar Spin Forever
#150 - 2014-03-20 16:58:28 UTC
mkint wrote:


This'll only affect the loot that gets refined as it is. The meta 0 loot that was ever worth refining was nerfed a long long time ago. It'll drive down the cost of low meta items to worthlessness, yes, but they are pretty worthless anyway. Higher meta might go down a little bit because manufactured goods prices will go up because of the refining nerf (30% nerf on refining rates, I think the dev blog said), and the isk supply won't go up to match. Maybe mid meta price would go up to balance it, but probably not as much as normal market fluctuations.


I certainly don't have access to the raw numbers but I'd suspect a pretty good percentage of meta items sold (especially to buy orders) wind up reprocessed. Even on low value items quite a few of them sit right below the value of the minerals obtained through reprocessing which to me indicates that the majority of demand is coming from people purchasing to reprocess. While the refining rate for ore is going down the mineral content of that ore is going up so it shouldn't change overall pricing of ore/minerals/manufactured modules that much. I doubt the overall % of minerals in the system will be terribly affected by the nerf to module reprocessing but the value of the loot to the person collecting it will drop significantly.
Kym Sorenson
Lone Wolf Union
The Rogue Consortium
#151 - 2014-03-20 16:59:10 UTC
Here's an idea: give the Rorqual a new and unique trait that lets it reprocess loot at 100% as a cap (based on player skills). Keep the fuel and time requirements since that will keep the mineral compression folks nerfed and bottlenecked, but it'll let the smaller players have a way to extract all of the minerals out of their scrap. It'll also keep the Rorqual relevent.
June Ting
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#152 - 2014-03-20 17:01:03 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
You've made a mistake, here:

Quote:
As such, to keep ratio fairly identical, we are going to boost all minerals and ice products gained by reprocessing ores and ices approximately by 38.1% (1/0.724). This will apply to all the unrefined alchemy material as well.


Because alchemy uses scrapmetal which is getting nerfed, you need to boost it by its own percentage (instead of the ore percentage) to get it back to where it is now.


Upping this. CCP, you either need to consider alchemy an ore (heck, give it his own refining skill !) or boost MORE alchemy reaction for unrefined products.

Otherwise you are NERFING alchemy reaction straight away. Oh, and yes, you are upping alchemy in 0.0 sov too.


Indeed, point noted, we'll have a look into that one.

Please look at the issues with NPC null stations vs. sov null stations wrt alchemy I mentioned upthread please while you're looking at balancing alchemy yield.

I fight for the freedom of my people.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#153 - 2014-03-20 17:01:53 UTC
and as always, lowsec will get the biggest hit in the nuts......

CCP, why don't ou get rid of low directly instead of nerfing it every expansion?

nerf over nerf over nerf.......really?

this is already one of the most difficult place to live in, and it has the lowest income possibilitys, and you are making it worse EVERY SINGLE TIME....stop this
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#154 - 2014-03-20 17:02:33 UTC
June Ting wrote:

Please look at the issues with NPC null stations vs. sov null stations wrt alchemy I mentioned upthread please while you're looking at balancing alchemy yield.


NPC and sov null stations refine alchemy at the exact same rates: upgrades don't affect scrapmetal, only ore and ice.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2014-03-20 17:03:20 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
and as always, lowsec will get the biggest hit in the nuts......

CCP, why don't ou get rid of low directly instead of nerfing it every expansion?

nerf over nerf over nerf.......really?

this is already one of the most difficult place to live in, and it has the lowest income possibilitys, and you are making it worse EVERY SINGLE TIME....stop this

lowsec recieves the 54% pos refinery, a net buff

it's not nerfed

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#156 - 2014-03-20 17:03:38 UTC
On the whole, I really like the direction of these changes, but I've been hearing a lot of grumbling from someone who tends to be all 'CCP never listens, why bother?' about asking a question, so I'm gonna ask it for him, since you know, business partner and all.

We've got ourselves a little ice-mining operation that involves - right now - carving up chunks, compressing them, and refining them in Jita to sell there. With these changes, assuming max skills/rep/implant, the amount of isotopes refined from a block of Pure White Glaze or Thick Blue (compressed or otherwise) will go from 400 in Jita to 349. That's not an insignificant loss of product. Our other option is to refine locally, where - if my math is right and the station's fully upgraded - we'll get 419. But at that point, we can't compress the ice products to haul out to Jita.

So just to check, if I'm reading this right, the major advantage of compression for ice will be making it easier to haul it to the refining location - but that refining location will need to be in sov-null, or you're just throwing money away. If you're selling in high-sec, you're losing money on this change no matter what - either you don't get as much product, or you refine locally and need more JF runs to get the product to market.

Am I missing something, or is that an accurate assessment?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#157 - 2014-03-20 17:05:53 UTC
Arrendis wrote:

So just to check, if I'm reading this right, the major advantage of compression for ice will be making it easier to haul it to the refining location - but that refining location will need to be in sov-null, or you're just throwing money away. If you're selling in high-sec, you're losing money on this change no matter what - either you don't get as much product, or you refine locally and need more JF runs to get the product to market.

Am I missing something, or is that an accurate assessment?

You'll sell your compressed ice in jita, then another null alliance buys it for the LO and brings it back.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Anys Thes'Realin
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2014-03-20 17:06:13 UTC
I still dabble with this type of stuff on my old Industry alt, and I mostly like these changes, but there are some parts of it I am a little concerned about.

This does make a Refiner/Reprocessor a more important mini-profession. With the Ore compression, I see raw Ore being sold more often and minerals being sold far less often. However, will this paradigm shift benefit miners, or actually make the mining profession less profitable and only benefit the new "middle man refiner" that simply refines everything and marks it up?

Raw mineral prices will go up since the supply of minerals will be noticeably be going down. This will affect the economy as a whole, inflating the prices of everything.

With how volatile the market will be, it seems like this would be as good of time as any to fix ship mineral costs and do away with the "Extra Materials" section. Merging these "Extra Materials" in with the regular materials (and thus affected by Mineral efficiency) would reduce the mineral costs on these T1 ships slightly, and partly alleviating the burden of a diminished Mineral supply.

Finally, as far as the word, "Reprocess? and "Refining" I have a couple suggestions:
  • Lustrate/Lustration
  • Meliorate/Melioration
  • Process (NOT Reprocess)
  • Reformation


Overall, I'm not a big industry person these days, so I may not even know what I'm talking about. These are just thoughts that occurred to me after reading the blog.

My EVElopedia roleplaying profile, last updated February 23rd, 2014: http://tinyurl.com/nfazlch I support having more clothes for our characters!  http://tinyurl.com/kpafjh2
Dracnys
#159 - 2014-03-20 17:07:46 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
I've gotta say, though, that I don't quite get why POS refining is not (currently) going to take a pilot's refining skill into account, and -- if I'm reading things right -- simply assume that everyone using it has perfect skills. All refining, in all locations, should take those skills into account. Otherwise, why bother training them at all?


I completely agree. POS refining should take skills into account.
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#160 - 2014-03-20 17:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Irregessa
People seem to be confusing ore compression and mineral compression. The changes to compression for the rorq and the POS modules just compensates for the loss of yield due to refining changes, as far as I can see - they are increased by a factor of 1.381. IIRC, mineral compression, as done with 425mm railguns, is not going to be done by the rorq or POS modules. There a 50m3 module is reprocessed into 102492 units of trit. With these changes, it will be 56371 units of trit. That is still over 10-times less volume than the minerals themselves.

So it really depends on what is more onerous for the builder - the isk for the minerals or the volume and cost of moving the minerals to where they need to be used to build the components/ships.