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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Yeck Dethahal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2014-03-20 16:10:18 UTC
I guess we will see a lot more neutral freighters in Providence
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#102 - 2014-03-20 16:10:41 UTC
Orion Guardian wrote:
[think about how easy it is to buy minerals in Highsec and how unlikely it is to have the same amount or ore bought....]

and now this will change, obviously

think a little more

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Orion Guardian
#103 - 2014-03-20 16:10:53 UTC
Neki Koskanaiken wrote:
Many short sighted industrialists might QQ over this but let me assure you this is a very good change. It will improve the health of EVE in so many ways, it's blowing my mind.


Well it is a small boost for Ore -> Minerals at some point, but why should they rejoice when there is NO WAY to compress minerals for good transportation?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#104 - 2014-03-20 16:14:55 UTC
Unable to refine ore for profit?

Sell it, so someone else refines it.

Where's it written that Miners have to be the ones who refine ore? Especially newbie miners?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Reizak StormFury
Perkone
Caldari State
#105 - 2014-03-20 16:15:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Reizak StormFury
Orion Guardian wrote:
Neki Koskanaiken wrote:
Many short sighted industrialists might QQ over this but let me assure you this is a very good change. It will improve the health of EVE in so many ways, it's blowing my mind.


Well it is a small boost for Ore -> Minerals at some point, but why should they rejoice when there is NO WAY to compress minerals for good transportation?


I think you'll find that with simpler and more accessible compression, people won't be refining ores in high sec. Instead they'll be selling compressed ore direct to market.

So, you won't need to export minerals from high to null. You'll transport compressed ore instead.
Orion Guardian
#106 - 2014-03-20 16:15:16 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Orion Guardian wrote:
[think about how easy it is to buy minerals in Highsec and how unlikely it is to have the same amount or ore bought....]

and now this will change, obviously

think a little more


I did, and yes it will change, but seeing the high Mineral consumption in Highsec I am not sure it will change much. Unless I am missing the point: Nullsec is not the biggest user of Minerals in itself (most of it is build in Highsec after all). So the Minerals are needed there as well. So if the stuff is left as ore to be exported to nullsec it is missing as potential quick sold stock in high.

It gets alot more complex and the missing part of converting minerals back into a compressed state (The compressed ore -> Mineral side is quite easy, the backward-reaction that used to be Module compression is negated.) The economic system will adapt, but like a chemical reaction: If the backward path is completely blocked there are consequences far greater than just "tweaking the system"
Opner Dresden
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#107 - 2014-03-20 16:15:24 UTC
Neki Koskanaiken wrote:
Many short sighted industrialists might QQ over this but let me assure you this is a very good change. It will improve the health of EVE in so many ways, it's blowing my mind.


No, this will effectively kill low/null sec industry completely... driving out users of high quantities of high sec minerals, titans/supers will get more expensive relative to build cost (good) but the value of the minerals will go down considerably as supply overwhelms demand... then people will stop mining... then it will all balance... and we'll be right back where we are now value wise (relative to inflation).

Only the playstyle I've trained for and built my entire game around, just got kicked in the balls for zero benefit.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#108 - 2014-03-20 16:16:23 UTC
Reizak StormFury wrote:

I think you'll find that with simpler and more accessible compression, you won't need to export minerals from high to null. You'll transport compressed minerals instead.


Compressed minerals don't work any more after this.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Rastaf Arian
Gallente Police Department
#109 - 2014-03-20 16:16:48 UTC
I forsee a large drop in the value of mission salvage and loot, this greatly reducing high sec mission running income. There is little point missioning in low and null due to the ease of killing battleships with cheap hulls. I think the ramifications of this will be farther reaching than anticipated.
Reizak StormFury
Perkone
Caldari State
#110 - 2014-03-20 16:17:51 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Reizak StormFury wrote:

I think you'll find that with simpler and more accessible compression, you won't need to export minerals from high to null. You'll transport compressed minerals instead.


Compressed minerals don't work any more after this.


I mis-typed. See my edited post.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#111 - 2014-03-20 16:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Orion Guardian wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Orion Guardian wrote:
[think about how easy it is to buy minerals in Highsec and how unlikely it is to have the same amount or ore bought....]

and now this will change, obviously

think a little more


I did, and yes it will change, but seeing the high Mineral consumption in Highsec I am not sure it will change much. Unless I am missing the point: Nullsec is not the biggest user of Minerals in itself (most of it is build in Highsec after all). So the Minerals are needed there as well. So if the stuff is left as ore to be exported to nullsec it is missing as potential quick sold stock in high.

It gets alot more complex and the missing part of converting minerals back into a compressed state (The compressed ore -> Mineral side is quite easy, the backward-reaction that used to be Module compression is negated.) The economic system will adapt, but like a chemical reaction: If the backward path is completely blocked there are consequences far greater than just "tweaking the system"

i'm going to put up buy orders for compressed ore and *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. will fill them, because the ore is worth 14.4% more to me than them

the way they get the MOST money is to compress it, or sell it to someone who will compress it

you're fixated on compressing minerals instead of buying pre-compressed ore

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Reizak StormFury
Perkone
Caldari State
#112 - 2014-03-20 16:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Weaselior wrote:
Orion Guardian wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Orion Guardian wrote:
[think about how easy it is to buy minerals in Highsec and how unlikely it is to have the same amount or ore bought....]

and now this will change, obviously

think a little more


I did, and yes it will change, but seeing the high Mineral consumption in Highsec I am not sure it will change much. Unless I am missing the point: Nullsec is not the biggest user of Minerals in itself (most of it is build in Highsec after all). So the Minerals are needed there as well. So if the stuff is left as ore to be exported to nullsec it is missing as potential quick sold stock in high.

It gets alot more complex and the missing part of converting minerals back into a compressed state (The compressed ore -> Mineral side is quite easy, the backward-reaction that used to be Module compression is negated.) The economic system will adapt, but like a chemical reaction: If the backward path is completely blocked there are consequences far greater than just "tweaking the system"

i'm going to put up buy orders for compressed ore and *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.will fill them, because the ore is worth 14.4% more to me than them

the way they get the MOST money is to compress it, or sell it to someone who will compress it

you're fixated on compressing minerals instead of buying pre-compressed ore


Exactly this, which is a move in the right direction IMHO.

The whole "you don't need skills if you have a POS" thing vexes me no end though.
Dracnys
#113 - 2014-03-20 16:22:16 UTC
Looks interesting. Let's see how this changes industry. I think many solo highsec miners won't be able to get acceptable refinery rates now. There may be a new market for unrefined ore and a profit for people with the rights skills. Overall I predict that mineral prices will go up by a bit.

While you're at it: Could you do a simple fix to POS manufacturing arrays? Big smile
It's driving me nuts getting just the right ratio of minerals into their super small cargo bays. I would really like to use them but as things stand manufacturing in NPC stations is just the only way to go.
So how about just doubling (at least) their cargo capacity? If that means they become better than hangars just increase their fitting requirements/split them into a small version and a large one with different cargo capacities and fittings reqs.
Warcalibre
NovaTech Holdings
#114 - 2014-03-20 16:22:34 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Quote:
Any item not part of the two categories mentioned earlier (like ships and modules) will only be affected by the Scrapmetal Processing skil


so please disconnect the scrapmetal skill from the other dependencies. New players should not have to waste SP on ore reprocessing skills to be able rise efficiency of module reprocessing.


Please this.
JackEuchre
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2014-03-20 16:23:19 UTC
Was it CCP's oversite or intent to make the Rorq completley useless? Compression with a Rorq requires Heavy Water and lots of time. Compression at the new POS module does not require Heavy water and is instant. Chances are the compression pos module well be MUCH cheaper than a rorq. Why on earth would anyone use a Rorq?
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#116 - 2014-03-20 16:23:20 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I might have missed it, but do starbase refining arrays now take skills into consideration?


Not for now, but they have been changed in such a way they give you 52 / 54% yield reprocess as if you had perfect skills, so that is a huge incentive to use them if you don't have all skills / implants trained. Ice will also be affected by it (no more 100% reprocess for ice in Starbase Reprocessing Arrays).

This may change later on though.

With the cost to operate and risk involved in using starbase refining arrays 52/54% seems a little low, I would think the optimal refining should need to be performed at player controlled structures and not NPC stations.



This. Very much this.

(I'm pretty certain this was talked about at the CSM9 industry panel that should be going up on Declarations of war (.com) soon)


There was a discussion on whereas player Outposts or Starbase Reprocessing Arrays should come out on top of the reprocessing race - so far we prefer Outpost to have the better rates since it's significantly more expensive to fully upgrade a Minmatar outpost to the last improvement.

But in all cases, Starbase Reprocessing Arrays are better than NPC stations. As mentioned before, we have authored the Starbase Reprocessing Array as if you had perfect skills; so in reality they give you a 75.3% and 78.1% reprocesing rate.


This makes implants only good for high sec. Why aren't they being taken into account here?
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#117 - 2014-03-20 16:23:52 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Yes, that is one discussion we internally had as well. We tried to find a term that would encompess both reprocessing and refining, but with no avail.


Transmogrify?

I jest, I jest.
Centurax
CSR Engineering Solutions
Citizen's Star Republic
#118 - 2014-03-20 16:24:02 UTC
Some very useful changes, looking forward to them.

However,

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Not for now, but they have been changed in such a way they give you 52 / 54% yield reprocess as if you had perfect skills, so that is a huge incentive to use them if you don't have all skills / implants trained. Ice will also be affected by it (no more 100% reprocess for ice in Starbase Reprocessing Arrays).

This may change later on though.


I hope I am just misinterpreting this but, if you are not planning to add player skills to the reprocessing on Starbases then pleae reconsider that a bit more closely. It would be good to keep these arrays competitive with stations especially in high sec space where players spend time to generate standings to deploy moon and this could then, giving competitive reprocessing would be a good bonus to the time taken to do this. However using skills to boost Reprocessing on the Starbases would being all areas of space, and make us want to use the Reprocessing arrays, instead of compression it all and hauling it to a station where we can get a good refine which frankly would be a stupid approach since you are putting a lot of work into this.

If they even had a lower reprocessing yield to make them less competitive at the start would be a compromise, but having had to live with the unforgivable Refining arrays all this time, to take the improvement so far only to stop short of a usable solution is a little annoying.
Wylt Echerie
Les Suceuses de l'Ouest
Ishtar Spin Forever
#119 - 2014-03-20 16:24:03 UTC
I don't really do much mining/industry type stuff but most of this sounds pretty reasonable. The whole ore compression via module manufacturing always seemed awkward and a bit unwieldy. Being able to accomplish the same thing just via straight ore compression seems to make alot more sense. Being able to max out your efficiency with less then maxed skills seemed strange.

Juliette Asanari wrote:
Aside from other effects mentioned in this thread, the price of a lot of meta 1->3 items is going to plumet, since their value is mostly derived from their reprocessed materials. Any hike in mineral prices is very unlikely to compensate for a 45-50% loss in minerals, since the size of that mineral hike is very dependend on the amount of minerals injected into the mineral market via module repro vs. the amount injected via mining.


However tthis is the one thing that jumped out at me as being an issue. While it doesn't affect my current isk-generating activities, in the past collecting loot drops and selling them comprised a decent portion of my income. I don't know the exact amounts but I can remember that a significant portion of that income came from modules that were only valuable due to the mineral content. In my eyes the proposed drop in value of these items seems too high and impacts lower-income newer players especially.
Paul Otichoda
Perkone
Caldari State
#120 - 2014-03-20 16:24:59 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Unable to refine ore for profit?

Sell it, so someone else refines it.

Where's it written that Miners have to be the ones who refine ore? Especially newbie miners?


one problem with that, generally I found that most ore buy orders were set about 10% below the regular market price for the ore while the minerals were generally much closer to the market value. There is nothing to stop a new syndicate forming that only buys ore at massively reduced price and then forcing the market price for the minerals up