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Battlecruisers need large rigs.

Author
X Mary
Lousy T-Shirt Corp
#1 - 2011-11-26 12:23:26 UTC
A lot of people talk about battlecruiser balancing in pvp but in my opinion it's mostly a cost issue.

If you only look at hull costs there's a nice progression in cost from cruiser to battlecruiser to battleship.
A battlecruiser costs about 3 times as much as a cruiser and a battleship 2-3 times as much as a battlecruiser after insurance.

Then you start factoring in rigs and that Battlecruiser is not even twice as expensive more like 1,5 as a cruiser and the battleship becomes 6-7 times as expensive as the battlecruiser.

So nobobody flies cruisers because for just a bit more you have a boat that will perform a lot better and only people with large wallets fly battleships in pvp.

My solution to this is to give battlecruiser and then mostly the tech 2 type of battlecruiser a mix of large and medium rig slots.
Something like 2 large and 1 medium or 2 medium and one large. This way you would have the cost progression from cruiser-battlecruiser-battleship back and you see both more tech1 cruisers and tech1 battleships on the field.


Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#2 - 2011-11-26 12:31:26 UTC
No

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)

Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-11-26 12:39:03 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
No


This. TBQFH.

If you're worried about cruisers being under utilized (which they are, along with most of the T1 frigates and some of the tier 1 BC's), then you need to lobby for CCP to remove the Tier System and not only boost lots of hulls both stats wise and by rejigging the bonuses to make sure each ship has a role to play.

Besides, ISK value isn't a balancing factor in Eve.
X Mary
Lousy T-Shirt Corp
#4 - 2011-11-26 12:57:37 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
Besides, ISK value isn't a balancing factor in Eve.
Say what? Everything in Eve is about isk, and if you take in account total cost of a loss, then especially Tier 2 battlecruisers are massively underpriced compared to the performance they give.
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#5 - 2011-11-26 13:29:29 UTC
Everything in eve is about fun. ISK is a necessity.

Why do you want to raise the cost of PVP arbitrarily? I don't see how you can justify it.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)

Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-11-26 13:35:50 UTC
Yea BCs should totally use rigs that cost almost as much as the hull each.. Wait, no.
Nex apparatu5
Blackwood Co.
#7 - 2011-11-26 13:48:00 UTC
X Mary wrote:
Buzzmong wrote:
Besides, ISK value isn't a balancing factor in Eve.
Say what? Everything in Eve is about isk, and if you take in account total cost of a loss, then especially Tier 2 battlecruisers are massively underpriced compared to the performance they give.

If you've played for a year or two, isk is no longer a limiting factor.
X Mary
Lousy T-Shirt Corp
#8 - 2011-11-26 13:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: X Mary
Lady Spank wrote:
Everything in eve is about fun. ISK is a necessity.

Why do you want to raise the cost of PVP arbitrarily? I don't see how you can justify it.
Because there's always a movement to bang for your buck and in that aspect battlecruisers get way more then other ships causing them to be overrepresented. Cruisers and battleships would have more uses if this disparity of cost was fixed.

Alternatively give cruisers small rigs and battleships medium rigs if you're concerned about making fun more expensive. This will lead to more diversity and I think that's a good thing.
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Yea BCs should totally use rigs that cost almost as much as the hull each.. Wait, no.
Why not? If I fit my armageddon the rigs ARE just as expensive as the hull. Why for that ship it's ok and for a BC is not?
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-11-26 13:52:38 UTC
X Mary wrote:
Lady Spank wrote:
Everything in eve is about fun. ISK is a necessity.

Why do you want to raise the cost of PVP arbitrarily? I don't see how you can justify it.
Because there's always a movement to bang for your buck and in that aspect battlecruisers get way more then other ships causing them to be overrepresented. Cruisers and battleships would have more uses if this disparity of cost was fixed.

Alternatively give cruisers small rigs and battleships medium rigs if you're concerned about making fun more expensive. This will lead to more diversity and I think that's a good thing.


Cheap rigged BSs for everyone \o/









(terrible idea)
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#10 - 2011-11-26 16:12:46 UTC
X Mary wrote:

Why not? If I fit my armageddon the rigs ARE just as expensive as the hull.

Than you are doing it wrong.

Remove insurance.

Goose99
#11 - 2011-11-26 16:25:03 UTC
Fix salvage rate so that a select few popular rigs are not vastly overpriced.
Cerlin
#12 - 2011-11-26 17:41:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cerlin
IF you think they are overpriced, make your own rigs and take advantage of the market. This game is all about supply and demand, its not the manufacturers fault if everyone wants to buy the same rigs.

Edit: I think the OP's Idea is terrible too. Battlecruisers are popular not just because of the price, but because they can hit all the subcap chassis' very well. That is what they should do.
Aesiron
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2011-11-26 18:41:57 UTC
X Mary wrote:
A lot of people talk about battlecruiser balancing in pvp but in my opinion it's mostly a cost issue.

If you only look at hull costs there's a nice progression in cost from cruiser to battlecruiser to battleship.
A battlecruiser costs about 3 times as much as a cruiser and a battleship 2-3 times as much as a battlecruiser after insurance.

Then you start factoring in rigs and that Battlecruiser is not even twice as expensive more like 1,5 as a cruiser and the battleship becomes 6-7 times as expensive as the battlecruiser.

So nobobody flies cruisers because for just a bit more you have a boat that will perform a lot better and only people with large wallets fly battleships in pvp.

My solution to this is to give battlecruiser and then mostly the tech 2 type of battlecruiser a mix of large and medium rig slots.
Something like 2 large and 1 medium or 2 medium and one large. This way you would have the cost progression from cruiser-battlecruiser-battleship back and you see both more tech1 cruisers and tech1 battleships on the field.




No no no no no no.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#14 - 2011-11-26 23:43:56 UTC
A rigged cruiser costs 20M isk more or less, a rigged BC costs 60-70M isk. I'm ignoring insurance here, this is just the upfront cost. Seems pretty balanced to me. The problem is players are just too rich, BC's are the new t1 frig.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]

Majuan Shuo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2011-11-26 23:50:02 UTC
What is this I don't even

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#16 - 2011-11-26 23:59:37 UTC
Rig prices are not uniform, thus this is not a valid balancing discussion. My BS's are often fit witih weapon rigs which are cheaper than the BC level buffer rigs I typically use - this makes my BS's cost about on par with my BC's, ergo BC's should clear be cheaper, rite?
Goose99
#17 - 2011-11-27 00:11:52 UTC
Cerlin wrote:
IF you think they are overpriced, make your own rigs and take advantage of the market. This game is all about supply and demand, its not the manufacturers fault if everyone wants to buy the same rigs.

Edit: I think the OP's Idea is terrible too. Battlecruisers are popular not just because of the price, but because they can hit all the subcap chassis' very well. That is what they should do.


Genius, it's the salvage price.Lol

Margins for armor rigs are even lower than less used rigs. It has to do with salvage drop table. Armor plates, for example, drops less than electronic, but trimarks are in far greater demand than cpu/ewar rigs, thus the price imbalance. The drop table is arbitrarily determined by CCP, thus, players cannot change supply.
X Mary
Lousy T-Shirt Corp
#18 - 2011-11-27 00:13:49 UTC
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Rig prices are not uniform, thus this is not a valid balancing discussion. My BS's are often fit witih weapon rigs which are cheaper than the BC level buffer rigs I typically use - this makes my BS's cost about on par with my BC's, ergo BC's should clear be cheaper, rite?
If rigs are so cheap it doesn't matter then this change wouldn't hurt anyone. If however rigprices are a big factor in deciding what ship to field then this change is also valid. Going by your argument, there's no reason not to implement this.
Alara IonStorm
#19 - 2011-11-27 00:56:10 UTC
You have to look at the difference.

Batllecruisers vs Cruisers

Slightly Slower
A Bit less Scan Res
Larger Sig Rad

Vs

More DPS
More Slots
Double the Capacitor without much extra Cap use
Better fitting per Module
Much more Tank
Always a full Drone bay
Cheap Rigs and insurance

Now the extra slots mean they can fit Sebo's and Nano's while still maintaining more tank so there goes the pretty much the Speed and Scan Res disadvantage. Especially the Nano Cane which can move faster then most non Minmatar Cruisers.

Then look at how different the Tier System effects them. The Logi Cruisers are all terrible at being Logi Cruisers. Two of the EWAR Cruisers are good, one of them is a combat Cruiser. The last two don't have much going for them. The lower Tier Combat Cruiser are Terrible like the Omen and Stabber or passable like the AML Caracal and Vexor. Then Tier 3 you have the Moa and Maller w/o Dmg Bonuses which shows, Thorax is going to be better this winter but not by much and the Rupture is Ok. Cruisers bonuses, slot layout and stats are often poorly thought for there tasks so they don't get much use even in there Niche.

The problem is not cost it is roles. Battlecruisers right now are essentially Way, Way, Better Cruisers. If Cruisers are to return they need to be able to do things Battlecruisers can not. They don't have to be better at Combat but they should be able to do it differently.

Cruisers need a Rebalance of Roles.
Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE
#20 - 2011-11-27 02:55:35 UTC
Small rigs: Frigates, Destroyers
Medium rigs: Cruisers, Battlecruisers
Large rigs: Battleships, Capital Ships

Op needs to think before posting.
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