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Battlecruisers need large rigs.

Author
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#61 - 2011-12-28 01:12:26 UTC
Nobody flies cruisers because they have terrible bonuses aimed at LOL mining and other silly stuff.
Kn1v3s 999
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2011-12-28 03:30:25 UTC
to the OP: NO
Endeavour Starfleet
#63 - 2011-12-28 04:04:15 UTC
Liang if you are just going to be rude I wont even bother loading pyfa to check that BS. And it matters not anyway because missiles take a GREAT deal of time to reach the target at range and have a large amount of overkill (How many times I have wasted a salvo on a kill I could not say)

With an attitude like that I am starting to wane on my support of removing tiers. Instead of giving them roles that are actually useful for more than solo PVP and PVE some are wanting to turn them into Tier 3 lights with tanks.

As for that BS someone said about Tier 2 balance. The reason many people use them is that they work very well in wolfpacks. The balance of good tank with good missile damage and the drawbacks of missile flight time and overkill. If a Drake is pounding you for high DPS that means the pilot has removed a significant factor of his tank so if you pound him back you can defeat him. Especially in groups.

To add variety give ships like the ferox an 80 percent drake tank match DPS and give them a new useful role. I would love to see the Ferox be used as a short range remote shield thrower but there are other roles it could be given.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#64 - 2011-12-28 04:40:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Liang if you are just going to be rude I wont even bother loading pyfa to check that BS. And it matters not anyway because missiles take a GREAT deal of time to reach the target at range and have a large amount of overkill (How many times I have wasted a salvo on a kill I could not say)

With an attitude like that I am starting to wane on my support of removing tiers. Instead of giving them roles that are actually useful for more than solo PVP and PVE some are wanting to turn them into Tier 3 lights with tanks.

As for that BS someone said about Tier 2 balance. The reason many people use them is that they work very well in wolfpacks. The balance of good tank with good missile damage and the drawbacks of missile flight time and overkill. If a Drake is pounding you for high DPS that means the pilot has removed a significant factor of his tank so if you pound him back you can defeat him. Especially in groups.

To add variety give ships like the ferox an 80 percent drake tank match DPS and give them a new useful role. I would love to see the Ferox be used as a short range remote shield thrower but there are other roles it could be given.


Comments:
- Which is more rude: someone that is totally ignorant spouting total nonsense or the person gently correcting them?
- It takes ~5 seconds for a Drake's missiles to hit at 15km. At 70km it takes ~12 seconds. That's a while but in small gang warfare it doesn't matter that much. The most valid complaints about flight time all revolve around massive blobs where the total life expectancy of the enemy is under the flight time of your missiles. If you'd like an object lesson I suggest you look up a fellow by the name of Naxias. If that isn't good enough, look up Burn Eden Ravens (I'm going to neglect the number that on grid scan mechanics did on this - because the current discussion is about flight time). I'd say most of the times I engaged him he spent the entire thing well over 50km from me.
- I'm fascinated by this insistence you have that somehow Tier 1 BCs are not used in small gang PVP. I'm also confused as to how you can consider ships with much better damage application and an actual tank a "Tier 3 light". Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that a Tier 3 is a true glass cannon and leave it wholly separate?
- Did you just say that Tier 2 BCs work well in ~wulfpacks~? /facepalm
- You should go back to EFT-school with all the whining about the Drake. You can get 600 DPS @ 70km with tackle and 100k EHP, or you can get 677 DPS @ 15km with full tackle and 90k EHP. I've personally used both fits and they work great.
- You know how you can add variety? A semi high DPS blaster ship with 90k EHP like you can get with the Drake.

Since you refuse to enlighten yourself with regards to the questions I asked, let me do it for you.

What's the DPS @ 15km of a 3 BCU Rage HAM Drake?
677 DPS @ 15km / 80k EHP

What's the DPS @ 70km of a 3 BCU Fury HML Drake? How many slots did it burn on getting that range?
462 DPS @ 70km / 80k EHP.
0 slots spent on range.

What's the DPS @ 3km of a 3 MFS Void Neutron Ferox? How about at 15km?
663 @ 5.1+3.1km / 62k EHP.
313 DPS @ 15km

What's the DPS @ 70km of a 3 MFS 250mm Rail Ferox? How many slots did it burn on getting that range?
200 DPS @ 70km.
2 slots spent on range (Sebo, TC to get Iridium @ 75km optimal. With spike you want to load a tracking script up and shoot ~100km)

Why do you think that the Ferox with reasonable damage at 5km would overpowere a Drake with reasonable damage out to 80km?
What an easy question. It wouldn't.

Supposing that a Rail Ferox could hit 600 DPS with Javelin - would that really affect the Drake's usage?
Hmmm, so an 8 turret Rail Ferox would put out ~560 DPS with Jav. Thus, I'd expect 266 DPS @ 70km with FN Iridium. That seems pretty innocuous compared to what the Drake can do.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Endeavour Starfleet
#65 - 2011-12-28 06:24:24 UTC
Even if that was right (Again ain't bothering to check with little benefit) Why must you HAVE such a ship? What is wrong with Naga for rails. Drake for tanked missile DPS and Ferox for new role?

If all we are doing is making a drake with rails just remove the damn ferox and let the drake fit Hybrids with the same bonuses.

I prefer removing SOME tank to gain an awesome ability to make it useful besides something for those who refuse to dual train missiles and hybrids. Or even removing DPS if it comes down to it.

Have any idea how useful a Ferox would be with short range remote shield transfer bonus?

Right now you have T1 Cruisers with only bonus to range and are thus useless. Domis fit for cap and tank but have to focus RR for max effect. And highly expensive logistics with long range and large bonuses.

There is a LARGE gap there where a T1 BC hull would fit perfectly with the proper bonuses. Of course with fit for tank you likely wont be able to perma rep. But a good blast at the right time would be crucial in many ops.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#66 - 2011-12-28 06:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Even if that was right (Again ain't bothering to check with little benefit) Why must you HAVE such a ship? What is wrong with Naga for rails. Drake for tanked missile DPS and Ferox for new role?

If all we are doing is making a drake with rails just remove the damn ferox and let the drake fit Hybrids with the same bonuses.

I prefer removing SOME tank to gain an awesome ability to make it useful besides something for those who refuse to dual train missiles and hybrids. Or even removing DPS if it comes down to it.

Have any idea how useful a Ferox would be with short range remote shield transfer bonus?

Right now you have T1 Cruisers with only bonus to range and are thus useless. Domis fit for cap and tank but have to focus RR for max effect. And highly expensive logistics with long range and large bonuses.

There is a LARGE gap there where a T1 BC hull would fit perfectly with the proper bonuses. Of course with fit for tank you likely wont be able to perma rep. But a good blast at the right time would be crucial in many ops.


I'm really confused. Let me make sure I understand you perfectly:
- You don't actually care about and nor are you conversant with the current performance of Tier 2 BCs - especially those which you appear to nominally fly. You similarly are not conversant with the performance of Tier 1 BCs. Furthermore, you are too lazy and entrenched in ignorance to sort this out when its pointed out to you in relatively stark terms.
- You don't care that Tier 1 BCs already have a role, but that they don't fulfill that role quite as well as they should (at least when compared to Tier 2 BCs).
- You don't care that Tier 1 BCs (especially the Brutix and Cyclone) have a role THAT PEOPLE LIKE. Furthermore, you are comfortable removing the medium hybrid role COMPLETELY from the BC class.
- You don't care that there are two training paths for Caldari.
- You just care that you demand a complete and radical role shift for Tier 1 BCs because you feel that 80-100k EHP and 700 DPS is outclassed by the Naga.
- You also think that 100M is "highly expensive".

Feel free to correct any misperceptions.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Endeavour Starfleet
#67 - 2011-12-28 06:57:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Endeavour Starfleet
If it is just to be a drake with hybrids. Frak it! Just no need for the model to waste Vram. Roll it into the drake and be done with it.

I have proposed a new role for it (And my idea for its new role is not the only answer there are others such as combat looting bonuses)

As for that removing medium hybrid bs. A 20 percent cut in tank compared only to drake to give it a valid new role does nothing to your lovely DPS. And have you not stopped to think about with the RR bonus I mentioned. Fitting a single shield transfer and flying for spider in a group of em will more than make up for that 20 percent loss? Encouraging group PVP THE HORROR P

Edit: Our debate is way off topic and is only helping to keep this bad idea topic on top. I will post my idea with a tad more detail in another topic maybe tomorrow. Lets continue this there.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#68 - 2011-12-28 07:12:17 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
If it is just to be a drake with hybrids. Frak it! Just no need for the model to waste Vram. Roll it into the drake and be done with it.

I have proposed a new role for it (And my idea for its new role is not the only answer there are others such as combat looting bonuses)

As for that removing medium hybrid bs. A 20 percent cut in tank compared only to drake to give it a valid new role does nothing to your lovely DPS. And have you not stopped to think about with the RR bonus I mentioned. Fitting a single shield transfer and flying for spider in a group of em will more than make up for that 20 percent loss? Encouraging group PVP THE HORROR P

Edit: Our debate is way off topic and is only helping to keep this bad idea topic on top. I will post my idea with a tad more detail in another topic maybe tomorrow. Lets continue this there.


Sure, but you're being bullheaded and ignorant. If you expect your thread to get any traction at all I'd suggest you actually have some understanding of what the ships you're talking about are actually capable of.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Rel'k Bloodlor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#69 - 2011-12-28 12:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
But I like tier one Battle cruisers there the only cheep gang link platform + there "ignore me I'm tier one" tank works wonders.
I mean this, try it fly a tier 1 with some tier 2's and hang back with links.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#70 - 2011-12-28 13:25:03 UTC
Rigs in general needs to be revised. Too many useless filler entries and too many "must haves".

ISK is indeed the governing factor when it comes to Tier2 BC's being FoTY .. stupidly good value, doubly so when considering insurance.

What I'd like to see is a reduction in materials needed for large rigs to cut their price by 40-50% and then making BC's require them. BS are expensive enough as is due to needing large mods and the hulls themselves, so they could do with a lower rigged price to help them back on the path of general viability ..
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2011-12-28 13:46:59 UTC
Honestly, I don't think large rigs would really solve a whole lot, and particularly if you are going to cut the material needs for large rigs AND make BCs use them. That way you push the cost of BC rigs up by like... 10%. Not really a change anyone would notice.

Its certainly arugable that battle cruisers should use large rigs, thats fine, but it would in no way effect their balance.

Making something more expensive has never made it less popular, and when prices go up (and up and up and up) then it just draws a line between haves and have nots, the former winning all the fights and the latter saying 'screw this' and leaving. See the nano-age for details on why this is bad for the game.

Tier 1 BCs should get some love though. No massive changes, just tweaks to get them workable EHP and dps. They don't have to beat the Tier 2, they don't have to be uber awesome just need a little something to get them rocking. Maybe more slots but not more fitting. Make them utility ships with lots of tackle and tolerable ehp. I'd like that.
illirdor
Upper Class Goat
#72 - 2011-12-28 13:54:33 UTC
hmm i have not thought about so dont flamer but why not remove the % that extender and trimarks give and just give them a flat amount ??

Soooo this is my sig.... 

Murtific
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#73 - 2011-12-28 16:10:10 UTC
X Mary wrote:
A lot of people talk about battlecruiser balancing in pvp but in my opinion it's mostly a cost issue.

If you only look at hull costs there's a nice progression in cost from cruiser to battlecruiser to battleship.
A battlecruiser costs about 3 times as much as a cruiser and a battleship 2-3 times as much as a battlecruiser after insurance.

Then you start factoring in rigs and that Battlecruiser is not even twice as expensive more like 1,5 as a cruiser and the battleship becomes 6-7 times as expensive as the battlecruiser.

So nobobody flies cruisers because for just a bit more you have a boat that will perform a lot better and only people with large wallets fly battleships in pvp.

My solution to this is to give battlecruiser and then mostly the tech 2 type of battlecruiser a mix of large and medium rig slots.
Something like 2 large and 1 medium or 2 medium and one large. This way you would have the cost progression from cruiser-battlecruiser-battleship back and you see both more tech1 cruisers and tech1 battleships on the field.




Do us a favor and dont get a job at CCP.