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Battlecruisers need large rigs.

Author
Dors Venabily
United Starbase Systems
#41 - 2011-12-27 16:04:29 UTC
Tier system has to go

I want to have a same number of slots Ships of different flavor.

Take Caldari for example.

Ferox buffed up to the level of Drake just guns instead of missiles for cruiser size with the Naga as cherry on top.

Same number of slots slightly different other stats. but similar.

Repeat everywhere in cruisers and frigates as well with different weapons and roles to match.


Oh and add X large rigs for the capital ships.

Should be enough to shuffle stuff a lot.

Endeavour Starfleet
#42 - 2011-12-27 20:35:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Endeavour Starfleet
I agree that the tier system has to go. I wouldn't go as far as locking in slot layout but I would say heavy experimentation on SIsi to find the right balance would be great.

I would not give the Ferox QUITE as much tank as the Drake. Maybe 8/10ths. Similar DPS output, lower but great passive tank (Or active with a bonus) and a third role. Maybe a bit of shield RRing?

But keep the medium rigs.

Large Collidable Object wrote:
The proposal is not going to solve the Cane/Drake issue and will make Tier1 BCs even more worthless than they already are.

Cane, Drake and Harb all need to lose a slot to bring them in line with the myrm and help balance them against Tier1.


Um no. You got killed by a perfectly balanced ship. DEAL with it. I have already explained how balanced it is but people keep thinking it is some kind of epic noob ship that can destroy you in a blink of an eye and survive a carrier attack.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#43 - 2011-12-27 20:37:29 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
I agree that the tier system has to go. I wouldn't go as far as locking in slot layout but I would say heavy experimentation on SIsi to find the right balance would be great.

I would not give the Ferox QUITE as much tank as the Drake. Maybe 8/10ths. Similar DPS output, lower but great passive tank (Or active with a bonus) and a third role. Maybe a bit of shield RRing?

But keep the medium rigs.


So... you want the tier system to go but you want to keep the Ferox outright inferior to the Drake.

-_-

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Endeavour Starfleet
#44 - 2011-12-27 20:41:23 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
I agree that the tier system has to go. I wouldn't go as far as locking in slot layout but I would say heavy experimentation on SIsi to find the right balance would be great.

I would not give the Ferox QUITE as much tank as the Drake. Maybe 8/10ths. Similar DPS output, lower but great passive tank (Or active with a bonus) and a third role. Maybe a bit of shield RRing?

But keep the medium rigs.


So... you want the tier system to go but you want to keep the Ferox outright inferior to the Drake.

-_-

-Liang


I want it to have a different role. I want to lose a small amount of tank to gain another role for it.

Because if you just make it similar to the drake with railguns it will still not get used because for PVE missiles rule. Give it another role bonus!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#45 - 2011-12-27 20:43:36 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
I agree that the tier system has to go. I wouldn't go as far as locking in slot layout but I would say heavy experimentation on SIsi to find the right balance would be great.

I would not give the Ferox QUITE as much tank as the Drake. Maybe 8/10ths. Similar DPS output, lower but great passive tank (Or active with a bonus) and a third role. Maybe a bit of shield RRing?

But keep the medium rigs.


So... you want the tier system to go but you want to keep the Ferox outright inferior to the Drake.

-_-

-Liang


I want it to have a different role. I want to lose a small amount of tank to gain another role for it.

Because if you just make it similar to the drake with railguns it will still not get used because for PVE missiles rule. Give it another role bonus!


It has a role - a hybrid battlecruiser - and there's literally no reason to unnaturally gimp it. Also: who cares about PVE?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Endeavour Starfleet
#46 - 2011-12-27 20:48:31 UTC
Again there is a reason. To give it another role which increases its versatility and thus its use.

Make it a drake with railguns and it will just continue to gather dust. Anyone who wants to use Hybrids for serious combat is likely going to bring a Naga anyway.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#47 - 2011-12-27 20:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Again there is a reason. To give it another role which increases its versatility and thus its use.

Make it a drake with railguns and it will just continue to gather dust. Anyone who wants to use Hybrids for serious combat is likely going to bring a Naga anyway.


You can feel free to think that but I'm pretty confident that you're wrong. A blaster BC with a range bonus and 600 DPS and 80k EHP sounds pretty nice to me. But hey, you're not even wiling to consider what an extra 2 slots (and potentially weapon slots) would do to the Ferox.

/shrug

-Liang

Ed: Let me just be clear: Just because you don't think anyone would use a hybrid ship aside from the Naga doesn't make it true. :)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Endeavour Starfleet
#48 - 2011-12-27 21:02:11 UTC
Ok now not only do you want all the tank of a drake but you want to out DPS it. With a role the drake dosent even have.

Quote:
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 5% shield resistance and 5% bonus kinetic damage of heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles per level

99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules.


Ferox has

Quote:
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level

99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules.


600DPS with all the Drake tank? Unbalanced much? Yes the drake has an extremely long reach but that requires you to sacrifice DPS and tank to reach out into the extremely long ranges.

Tiericide was supposed to mean changes to lower tier craft to make them useable again. Not turn them into solopwnmobiles at close range.
Jake McCord
Greater Metropolis Sanitation Service
#49 - 2011-12-27 21:02:33 UTC
Nerf, nerf, nerf. I'm tired of all the nerf talk. I've seen way too much nerfing in my 4+ years in this game. Pick a ship, learn how to fight it in it, and train all the skills you need to do it right.

Everything else is bull ****.

They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way! Did I mention, I used to live in Chicago?

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#50 - 2011-12-27 21:08:47 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Ok now not only do you want all the tank of a drake but you want to out DPS it. With a role the drake dosent even have.

Quote:
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 5% shield resistance and 5% bonus kinetic damage of heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles per level

99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules.


Ferox has

Quote:
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level

99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules.


600DPS with all the Drake tank? Unbalanced much? Yes the drake has an extremely long reach but that requires you to sacrifice DPS and tank to reach out into the extremely long ranges.

Tiericide was supposed to mean changes to lower tier craft to make them useable again. Not turn them into solopwnmobiles at close range.


Haha. A few questions for you:
- What's the DPS @ 15km of a 3 BCU Rage HAM Drake?
- What's the DPS @ 70km of a 3 BCU Fury HML Drake? How many slots did it burn on getting that range?
- What's the DPS @ 3km of a 3 MFS Void Neutron Ferox? How about at 15km?
- What's the DPS @ 70km of a 3 MFS 250mm Rail Ferox? How many slots did it burn on getting that range?
- Why do you think that the Ferox with reasonable damage at 5km would overpowere a Drake with reasonable damage out to 80km?
- Supposing that a Rail Ferox could hit 600 DPS with Javelin - would that really affect the Drake's usage?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Endeavour Starfleet
#51 - 2011-12-27 21:20:44 UTC
The issue is if it can tank like the drake and out DPS it. The drake becomes nothing more than a PVE boat again.

If you want to out DPS instead of matching there should be a similar percentage cut to tank. Especially as a Drake cant snipe with slow ass Heavy missiles taking too long to reach the target.

Also with the Naga nobody in their right mind is going to cut a ton of the Drakes tank to get the moderate gain in DPS. While you can make a ton of changes to increase DPS it makes the tank stupidly low and if you are going to be a paper shotgun you mise well be a naga with much higher potential DPS.

I say match DPS 80 percent of Drakes tanking and a decent third role.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2011-12-27 21:28:01 UTC
Quote:
only people with large wallets fly battleships in pvp.


^i loled, hard.

BSs are CHEAP.
dirt cheap in fact :)

This idea is dumb, move on.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#53 - 2011-12-27 21:28:31 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
The issue is if it can tank like the drake and out DPS it. The drake becomes nothing more than a PVE boat again.

If you want to out DPS instead of matching there should be a similar percentage cut to tank. Especially as a Drake cant snipe with slow ass Heavy missiles taking too long to reach the target.

Also with the Naga nobody in their right mind is going to cut a ton of the Drakes tank to get the moderate gain in DPS. While you can make a ton of changes to increase DPS it makes the tank stupidly low and if you are going to be a paper shotgun you mise well be a naga with much higher potential DPS.

I say match DPS 80 percent of Drakes tanking and a decent third role.


A few comments:
- Tier 1 BCs already have a distinct role from the tier 2 and tier 3 BCs... they don't need another one. Simple removal of the tier system would help all of them except perhaps the Prophecy (for reasons all of its own) shine in their specific role.
- The Naga is nice but it WILL lose to the first properly flown frigate or BC it encounters. People in my corp are making it a contest to see who can solo the tier 3 BCs in the smallest ship.
- The Naga is a terrible brawling ship. The Drake (and proposed Ferox) would actually be good at this.
- I notice that you didn't bother looking up the answer to the questions I asked. I know this because you wouldn't be making such stupid posts if you had. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Endeavour Starfleet
#54 - 2011-12-27 21:36:40 UTC
The Ferox has no distinct role other than a rail ship. You already have had a massive rail and blaster boost give it 80 percent of the drake's tank and then give it a REAL distinct new role.

In my opinion that role could be remote shield transfer. No range bonus but amount bonus per battlecruiser level. That would make it a great ship to use when a logi is too risky or expensive to fly. A logi will outrep and outrange it but it would make the ship an extremely versatile craft.

It is WORTH giving up some tank for!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#55 - 2011-12-27 21:41:01 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
The Ferox has no distinct role other than a rail ship. You already have had a massive rail and blaster boost give it 80 percent of the drake's tank and then give it a REAL distinct new role.

In my opinion that role could be remote shield transfer. No range bonus but amount bonus per battlecruiser level. That would make it a great ship to use when a logi is too risky or expensive to fly. A logi will outrep and outrange it but it would make the ship an extremely versatile craft.

It is WORTH giving up some tank for!


IT ALREADY HAS A REAL AND DISTINCT ROLE FROM THE NAGA. The funny thing about it is that taking away the tank would make what you're saying actually true. It really wouldn't have a role. But as long as it has 3x as much EHP and much better reception of RR it really really does.

Do you think that the Tornado would obsolete a Tier 2-esque Cyclone? No, it wouldn't... and neither would a Naga obsolete a Tier 2-esque Ferox.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Large Collidable Object
morons.
#56 - 2011-12-27 22:00:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:


Um no. You got killed by a perfectly balanced ship. DEAL with it. I have already explained how balanced it is but people keep thinking it is some kind of epic noob ship that can destroy you in a blink of an eye and survive a carrier attack.



Who says I got killed? (Although I certainly have been killed by a BC or more during recent years). I can fly all races BCs maxed out, so please spare me with your implications Roll.

All my arguing, be it about projectiles, BCs or anything else I've commented on in S&M is driven by a rather simple motivation:

Variety.

Nobody can deny Tier 2 BCs - foremost the Drake and Cane - are the most widespread ships in todays eve pvp.

Lots of people argue that because these ships are used a lot, they're fine and that if they're nerfed CCP is taking away the small mans opportunity to pvp effectively.

They are cost effective, well performing, versatile, cheap ships - the problem is that they're too good and largely cover niches that would otherwise be filled with e.g. HACs, but fill these niches just fine for a fraction of the price and training effort.

It's not about wanting to take away every noobs (and some vets) favourite toy, it's about going on a roam and encountering anything else but Tier 2 BCs 80% of the time, simply because their overabundance is boring.
It's about considering to take my dusty old Sac out and not finding myself thinking that a nanoed HAM drake would do the job just as well whilst being less of a gank-magnet and costing a fraction if lost.

They are badly balanced against each other, their Tier 1 counterparts and pretty much any T1/2 subcap in the game - hence everyone and his dog is flying one.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Endeavour Starfleet
#57 - 2011-12-27 22:09:59 UTC
A RR Ferox would mean that it gets used. And you can always do a bonus to resist and less buffer HP if you want to give it a group PVE role. Tho for PVP I think you want the 80 percent buffer ability instead.

Shield RRing would give it a great role outside of high DPS. As in ROLE as in Damage, Tank, Repair not the differences between guns and missiles.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#58 - 2011-12-27 22:27:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
A RR Ferox would mean that it gets used. And you can always do a bonus to resist and less buffer HP if you want to give it a group PVE role. Tho for PVP I think you want the 80 percent buffer ability instead.

Shield RRing would give it a great role outside of high DPS. As in ROLE as in Damage, Tank, Repair not the differences between guns and missiles.


Just because you keep asserting this doesn't mean that the Tier 1 BCs don't already have quite different roles than Tier 2 and Tier 3 BCs. There's no reason to remove those roles just because you refuse to actually look past your own biases and prejudices.

Remember, you're looking to do this to:
- The Brutix (Good ******* luck getting that **** to fly with the Gallente community, BTW)
- The Cyclone (Good ******* luck getting that **** to fly with the Minmatar community, BTW)
- The Ferox (You're being a ****** about this BTW. You don't dare actually look at the numbers because you KNOW you're wrong)
- The Prophecy (Ok, pretty much anything is an improvement over this... but that doesn't make this particular idea a good one)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Raven Ether
Doomheim
#59 - 2011-12-27 22:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Raven Ether
Cruisers are **** (like the tier 1 battlecruisers, and the whole tier system in general) , and CCP should rebalance them.


OP is a noob and a ****.
Realityfirst
Wraithguard.
The Wraithguard.
#60 - 2011-12-28 01:11:29 UTC
X Mary wrote:
Say what? Everything in Eve is about isk, and if you take in account total cost of a loss, then especially Tier 2 battlecruisers are massively underpriced compared to the performance they give.

This person is clearly a builder and is more concerned about how much isk they are bringing in then how much isk it costs others to purchase and fit a Tier 2 battlecruiser