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[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

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Author
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#441 - 2014-02-03 08:31:47 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
You can do a cerberus with 730 dps with t2 scourge rages and 3 hob ll's, around 850ish overheated. You have to have almost god like fitting skills, some implants and you have to train up your missiles related skills to 4's and 5's. Rigs consist of t2 rigor and t2 em hardener. With my skills, rages have 134 explosion radius 34km range ( good for hitting cruisers). If you use javelins you get 78 explosion radius ( for dessies?) 50+ range @ 500dps. However with faction scourge you get 78 explosion radius and 40km range @ 620-630 dps, 720 oh. You can only get this dps using an afterburner, if you use mwd youll be short on pg and will have to drop a bcu to fit a power diagnostic unit. dps drops by 85 on all missile types. Ehp is pathetic : 20-21k ehp, but then again you can fix with shield boosters. A full cycle of those (overheated ) should give you an extra 15k ehp buffer. 5 mids minus 2 for point and prop.

I think the issue for most players is with the Caracal. Once you start getting into the $200-$300 million range, you have a lot more options for both DPS and tank.



no.. the cerberus is the one that siuffered more. Caracal moslty will be fighting very fragile things. Cerberus on other hand hardly ever will be flying agaisnt t1 badly fitted frigates.

Almost anythign a cerberus will fight has more EHP than these can deliver or is fast enough (ceptors) to avoid most of the damage.

Rapids are interesting basically as secondary weapons, for example in stabber.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#442 - 2014-02-03 14:19:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kynric
After playing with the module a bit I find that I both like and hate it. The ammo swap problem is the main issue I have with the current rlml. The ability to select a damage type is one if the defining traits for missiles and this feature makes it impractical to use that trait. The alternative (heavy missles) is poor enough to perhaps keep rlmls in play but that should not be interpreted as happiness with the rlml. Please consider fixing the ammo swap, if that were done the module woukd be in a much better place.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#443 - 2014-02-03 14:27:49 UTC
Kynric wrote:
After playing with the module a bit I find that I both like and hate it. The ammo swap problem is the main issue I have with the current rlml. The ability to select a damage type is one if the defining traits for missiles and this feature makes it impractical to use that trait. The alternative (heavy missles) is poor enough to perhaps keep rlmls in play but that should not be interpreted as happiness with the rlml. Please consider fixing the ammo swap, if that were done the module woukd be in a much better place.



The best solution woudl be what one guy suggested. To reload full set of missiles.. 35 seconds. To replace 1 missile only (U used only 1 before reload) you spend 35/20 seconds... in other words.. time of reload linear to the ammount that need to be reloaded.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#444 - 2014-02-03 15:01:09 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kynric wrote:
After playing with the module a bit I find that I both like and hate it. The ammo swap problem is the main issue I have with the current rlml. The ability to select a damage type is one if the defining traits for missiles and this feature makes it impractical to use that trait. The alternative (heavy missles) is poor enough to perhaps keep rlmls in play but that should not be interpreted as happiness with the rlml. Please consider fixing the ammo swap, if that were done the module woukd be in a much better place.



The best solution woudl be what one guy suggested. To reload full set of missiles.. 35 seconds. To replace 1 missile only (U used only 1 before reload) you spend 35/20 seconds... in other words.. time of reload linear to the ammount that need to be reloaded.



What about a magazine or clip set up?

instead of a loadout of 20 you have a loadout of 2 x 10 which could exist of 2 different typs of ammo. Where you could reload 1 half while the other is firing. that would still give you extended load time and the abbility to fire busrt of 10 or 20?


the idea of clips with diferent ammo does appeal to me as a metric for missiles and give them a little more options when considering different sizes of signature at a cost of course, limited load out or longer loading times or something in that order.

CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#445 - 2014-02-03 16:12:45 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kynric wrote:
After playing with the module a bit I find that I both like and hate it. The ammo swap problem is the main issue I have with the current rlml. The ability to select a damage type is one if the defining traits for missiles and this feature makes it impractical to use that trait. The alternative (heavy missles) is poor enough to perhaps keep rlmls in play but that should not be interpreted as happiness with the rlml. Please consider fixing the ammo swap, if that were done the module woukd be in a much better place.



The best solution woudl be what one guy suggested. To reload full set of missiles.. 35 seconds. To replace 1 missile only (U used only 1 before reload) you spend 35/20 seconds... in other words.. time of reload linear to the ammount that need to be reloaded.


The big problem with this is that currently you have two options in the drop down, one for reloading the same and one for switching to a new type. If we did what you're talking about we would need three options, one for reloading current ammo to full, one for swapping to new kind of ammo but same amount of charges, and one for swapping to new type of ammo at max charges. We could do that, but it would add anywhere from one to several rows to the right click menu and would also probably be pretty confusing to a lot of users.

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.

@ccp_rise

Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#446 - 2014-02-03 16:27:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kynric
Thank you for the response. A 10 second "change warhead" button in addition to a 35second "reload magazine" option would meet my needs. It seems reasonably clear and I cant imagine anyone being confused by it for long. I would prefer it not be linked to a weapon timer as that is not compatible with the desired warhead flexibility trait that missles have. For example any time I might be inspired to swap into autotargeting missles I would likely be covered by a timer.

Alternatively perhaps you could make the reload function normal but include some sort of thermodynamic penalty to force a cooldown. That would have the advantage of cooling continuously when jumping from system to system rather than needing to not transition until the reload is complete.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#447 - 2014-02-03 16:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
CCP Rise wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kynric wrote:
After playing with the module a bit I find that I both like and hate it. The ammo swap problem is the main issue I have with the current rlml. The ability to select a damage type is one if the defining traits for missiles and this feature makes it impractical to use that trait. The alternative (heavy missles) is poor enough to perhaps keep rlmls in play but that should not be interpreted as happiness with the rlml. Please consider fixing the ammo swap, if that were done the module woukd be in a much better place.



The best solution woudl be what one guy suggested. To reload full set of missiles.. 35 seconds. To replace 1 missile only (U used only 1 before reload) you spend 35/20 seconds... in other words.. time of reload linear to the ammount that need to be reloaded.


The big problem with this is that currently you have two options in the drop down, one for reloading the same and one for switching to a new type. If we did what you're talking about we would need three options, one for reloading current ammo to full, one for swapping to new kind of ammo but same amount of charges, and one for swapping to new type of ammo at max charges. We could do that, but it would add anywhere from one to several rows to the right click menu and would also probably be pretty confusing to a lot of users.

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.



I understand the implications on the usability, but I think you missed a bit on my proposal.

My idea is that you ALWAYS reload all missiles. But the time is dependent of how many you already have.

20 missiles in bay. Reload is then set to minimum time ( could be the old 10 seconds). You get a full set of your new type of missiles.

10 missiles in bay. Then you have half your load, therefore your time must be half the penalty (35-10)/2+10 = 22.8 seconds.

0 missiles in bay. 35 seconds.

That regardless if you are reloading same ammo, or loading a new ammo.

Result is.. if you have full ammo and want to reload before a fight you have exact old behavior of missiles. But if your missiels are empty or almost empty you still pay the full time.


Also this approach shares all the advantages of your idea about the timer.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#448 - 2014-02-03 16:47:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
CCP Rise wrote:

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer.

Shocked
please stop adding arbitrary rules just because it somehow balances things. Soon we will have ships which move slower with aggression timers etc. Try to explain that to a noob. Eve ships don't cast magic fireballs, those are weapons out of a scifi universe. The less explainable and arbitrary the mechanic is the more immersion breaking and less new player friendly it is.

Just because you can't implement ammotype swap don't fall back to hacks like that.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#449 - 2014-02-03 16:49:25 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer.

Shocked
please stop adding arbitrary rules just because it somehow balances things. Soon we will have ships which move slower with aggression timers etc. Try to explain that to a noob. Eve ships don't cast magic fireballs, those are weapons out of a scifi universe. The less explainable and arbitrary the mechanic is the more immersion breaking and less new player friendly it is.



tell that to doomsday devices not working in low sec :P Or motherships unable to use drones.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#450 - 2014-02-03 16:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer.

Shocked
please stop adding arbitrary rules just because it somehow balances things. Soon we will have ships which move slower with aggression timers etc. Try to explain that to a noob. Eve ships don't cast magic fireballs, those are weapons out of a scifi universe. The less explainable and arbitrary the mechanic is the more immersion breaking and less new player friendly it is.



tell that to doomsday devices not working in low sec :P Or motherships unable to use drones.


there is a limit how many arbitrary rules you can add. It works only for a while before it just doesn't make sense anymore. Just because the game already has things which are out of place doesn't mean that you have to ad more.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#451 - 2014-02-03 16:50:38 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kynric wrote:
After playing with the module a bit I find that I both like and hate it. The ammo swap problem is the main issue I have with the current rlml. The ability to select a damage type is one if the defining traits for missiles and this feature makes it impractical to use that trait. The alternative (heavy missles) is poor enough to perhaps keep rlmls in play but that should not be interpreted as happiness with the rlml. Please consider fixing the ammo swap, if that were done the module woukd be in a much better place.



The best solution woudl be what one guy suggested. To reload full set of missiles.. 35 seconds. To replace 1 missile only (U used only 1 before reload) you spend 35/20 seconds... in other words.. time of reload linear to the ammount that need to be reloaded.


The big problem with this is that currently you have two options in the drop down, one for reloading the same and one for switching to a new type. If we did what you're talking about we would need three options, one for reloading current ammo to full, one for swapping to new kind of ammo but same amount of charges, and one for swapping to new type of ammo at max charges. We could do that, but it would add anywhere from one to several rows to the right click menu and would also probably be pretty confusing to a lot of users.

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.



I understand the implications on the usability, but I think you missed a bit on my proposal.

My idea is that you ALWAYS reload all missiles. But the time is dependent of how many you already have.

20 missiles in bay. Reload is then set to minimum time ( could be the old 10 seconds). You get a full set of your new type of missiles.

10 missiles in bay. Then you have half your load, therefore your time must be half the penalty (35-10)/2+10 = 22.8 seconds.

0 missiles in bay. 35 seconds.

That regardless if you are reloading same ammo, or loading a new ammo.

Result is.. if you have full ammo and want to reload before a fight you have exact old behavior of missiles. But if your missiels are empty or almost empty you still pay the full time.


Also this approach shares all the advantages of your idea about the timer.


Seems solid
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#452 - 2014-02-03 16:54:46 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:

Seems solid



once per month I stop trolling and post something constructive...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#453 - 2014-02-03 17:41:25 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.


This does not fix the problem of swapping ammo types
Nicen Jehr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#454 - 2014-02-03 17:50:55 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
The big problem with this is that currently you have two options in the drop down, one for reloading the same and one for switching to a new type. If we did what you're talking about we would need three options, one for reloading current ammo to full, one for swapping to new kind of ammo but same amount of charges, and one for swapping to new type of ammo at max charges. We could do that, but it would add anywhere from one to several rows to the right click menu and would also probably be pretty confusing to a lot of users.
I would implement a 'next reload type' mechanic. When your right click your missile launcher you would see:

-Reload
(Current: Mjolnir; Queued: Nova*)
-Queue Mjolnir Light Missile
-Queue Nova Light Missile

(Queue Scourge, Queue Inferno Precision etc, hidden because your ship has none in cargohold)

*this line would be info text like Personal Locations, Corporation Locations

When your missile launcher depletes (and auto-reload is on) the queued type loads with the full 35s reload time.

If you manually click Reload with some charges remaining, and the queued type is identical to the current type, it loads in less than 35s.

If you manually click Reload, and the queued type differs from the current type, the queued type loads with the full 35s reload time.

Note on that last one - I think it does not make sense for it to be FASTER to remove existing charges and replace with new charges, than to add new charges without having to remove any. e.g. if it takes 35s to reload from empty, swapping to new ammo type should never take less than 35s.

and fwiw missiles seem a bit weird thematically. i guess 10 seconds for normal missiles is enough time to open all the missile tubes and let the missiles fall on the floor and then have your ship's loader robot slam 53 new missiles into the LML tubes... and the loader robot takes 3.5 times longer to get half the missiles into RLML tubes or something...
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#455 - 2014-02-03 17:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
CCP Rise wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kynric wrote:
After playing with the module a bit I find that I both like and hate it. The ammo swap problem is the main issue I have with the current rlml. The ability to select a damage type is one if the defining traits for missiles and this feature makes it impractical to use that trait. The alternative (heavy missles) is poor enough to perhaps keep rlmls in play but that should not be interpreted as happiness with the rlml. Please consider fixing the ammo swap, if that were done the module woukd be in a much better place.



The best solution woudl be what one guy suggested. To reload full set of missiles.. 35 seconds. To replace 1 missile only (U used only 1 before reload) you spend 35/20 seconds... in other words.. time of reload linear to the ammount that need to be reloaded.


The big problem with this is that currently you have two options in the drop down, one for reloading the same and one for switching to a new type. If we did what you're talking about we would need three options, one for reloading current ammo to full, one for swapping to new kind of ammo but same amount of charges, and one for swapping to new type of ammo at max charges. We could do that, but it would add anywhere from one to several rows to the right click menu and would also probably be pretty confusing to a lot of users.

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.


Fixing this is easy. It takes 0 seconds to switch ammo types at the same charge count. This would be a good reason to use rapid launchers, and counterpoints the large full reload.

Then you only need 2 options. One to switch ammo and one to fully reload. If you switch ammo to the same charge count and then reload full you will accomplish the same thing as reloading full and switching at the same time.

Please implement this. Judging based on weapons timers is reasonable for convenience, but switching within the fight should not be gimped. It isn't a complex change. Users will understand the fact that you can switch ammo types as much as you want but need to take 35 seconds to go back up to the full set of charges. It's like putting in a damaged laser crystal.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Nicen Jehr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#456 - 2014-02-03 18:01:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicen Jehr
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Fixing this is easy. It takes 0 seconds to switch ammo types at the same charge count. This would be a good reason to use rapid launchers, and counterpoints the large full reload.
...
It's like putting in a damaged laser crystal.
I gotta disagree from a common sense standpoint (even if it would probably make RLML mroe fun). Swapping laser crystals is literally 'take eight chunks of crystal and drop them in the slot' but if it takes your crew/ship 35 seconds to get all the missiles in the tubes, how would it make sense for them to INSTANTLY replace them with entirely different missiles?
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#457 - 2014-02-03 18:08:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Nicen Jehr wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Fixing this is easy. It takes 0 seconds to switch ammo types at the same charge count. This would be a good reason to use rapid launchers, and counterpoints the large full reload.
...
It's like putting in a damaged laser crystal.
I gotta disagree from a common sense standpoint (even if it would probably make RLML mroe fun). Swapping laser crystals is literally 'take eight chunks of crystal and drop them in the slot' but if it takes your crew/ship 35 seconds to get all the missiles in the tubes, how would it make sense for them to INSTANTLY replace them with entirely different missiles?


Nanites. Or whatever. Lore shouldnt dictate game balance.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#458 - 2014-02-03 18:16:17 UTC
Current issues with RLM

1) You cant change damage and missile type, which removes one of the main advantages of missiles. Swapping damage types should take significantly reduced time compared to reloading.
2) RoF bonused ships are penalized relative to damage bonused ships when using RLM. RoF bonus should also reduce the reload time.
3) You dont get prorated on the reload time if you jump a gate while reloading. This isnt always an issue, but there are plenty of systems with only 10000km between gates.
Taranogas 3rd
Doomheim
#459 - 2014-02-03 18:33:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Taranogas 3rd
Michael Harari wrote:
Nicen Jehr wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Fixing this is easy. It takes 0 seconds to switch ammo types at the same charge count. This would be a good reason to use rapid launchers, and counterpoints the large full reload.
...
It's like putting in a damaged laser crystal.
I gotta disagree from a common sense standpoint (even if it would probably make RLML mroe fun). Swapping laser crystals is literally 'take eight chunks of crystal and drop them in the slot' but if it takes your crew/ship 35 seconds to get all the missiles in the tubes, how would it make sense for them to INSTANTLY replace them with entirely different missiles?


Nanites. Or whatever. Lore shouldnt dictate game balance.


i'm just picky so..

not always, but some things just don't make sense even for a virtual world :p comes a time where you **** things up so bad that it doesn't even make the slightest sense and your brain starts hurting every time a RLML fires a volley P

Look at all the weapon systems, and see that they do fit in with their "lore" and respective factions, lasers being highly accurate (good optimal) , blasters being like shotguns, projectiles old worn out weapons but still viable by tickling your opponent to death, now imagine if projectiles used capacitor and lasers didn't and everything between them switched except their names/models respectively, sure you could make it work, but it doesn't fit that much.

When you cross that line (like adding arbitrary rules to specific weapon systems just to make a version viable) it starts bordering on; wtf are you doing.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#460 - 2014-02-03 18:45:04 UTC
Taranogas 3rd wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Nicen Jehr wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Fixing this is easy. It takes 0 seconds to switch ammo types at the same charge count. This would be a good reason to use rapid launchers, and counterpoints the large full reload.
...
It's like putting in a damaged laser crystal.
I gotta disagree from a common sense standpoint (even if it would probably make RLML mroe fun). Swapping laser crystals is literally 'take eight chunks of crystal and drop them in the slot' but if it takes your crew/ship 35 seconds to get all the missiles in the tubes, how would it make sense for them to INSTANTLY replace them with entirely different missiles?


Nanites. Or whatever. Lore shouldnt dictate game balance.


i'm just picky so..

not always, but some things just don't make sense even for a virtual world :p comes a time where you **** things up so bad that it doesn't even make the slightest sense and your brain starts hurting every time a RLML fires a volley P

Look at all the weapon systems, and see that they do fit in with their "lore" and respective factions, lasers being highly accurate (good optimal) , blasters being like shotguns, projectiles old worn out weapons but still viable by tickling your opponent to death, now imagine if projectiles used capacitor and lasers didn't and everything between them switched except their names/models respectively, sure you could make it work, but it doesn't fit that much.

When you cross that line (like adding arbitrary rules to specific weapon systems just to make a version viable) it starts bordering on; wtf are you doing.


Yet you arent concerned that if I fire a missile from my ship that is going 1000 m/s, the missile doesnt go 1000m/s faster than it would if I fired it from rest?