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ESS Discussion Thread

First post First post
Author
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#181 - 2014-01-16 09:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
Kagura Nikon wrote:


You know that this is a LIE. You know very well thatyou can make far far more isk per hour in 0.0. THe only place in high sec where you do near that level of isk per our is incursions. but those you cannot just get home and spend 30 mintues doing it. You need to get on wait list and wait for 2 hours before you start doing money.


If 0.0 is so much less productive than high sec? Why you guys fich so many wars for the income resources of 0.0?


SImplyu, this is a #[email protected]#[email protected] excuse. 0.0 income is still 2-3 orders of magnitude larger than high sec (except commerce of course)


So is every L4 mission runner posting their isk/h after LP sales a liar or what? You'd have been arguably correct before the anom nerfs that took vindicator ratting away as a staple. Oh and exploration for complexes is up there too, but it's so heavily contested that it drops below "Worth doing" once you get more than a dozen or so people actively hunting in an entire region.

Honestly the best reason to live in null is the ego and the narrative.
Logical 101
PowerCow Farm
#182 - 2014-01-16 09:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Logical 101
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Don't get me wrong I have no problem utilizing inherently broken mechanics to my advantage, but that doesn't stop me from objectively arguing that they are broken as well. That's not intellectually bankrupt at all.

And here's where you fell down. It was well thought out, but eventually you stumbled.

The entire premise of what you have just delivered rests on the truth that something is inherently broken. First of all, nothing is "inherently" broken. Things break. When fabricated (implemented), they were "working as intended", because that was what was made available. It was designed that way.

You may feel it's unfair, overly advantageous, easily exploitable, and so on, but none of that means it's broken. It just means it's overpowered given its environment. And so whether it is "broken", as you put it, or not depends on whether or not an individual believes it to be "working as intended". It's all a matter of perspective.

The perspective you put forth is, therefore, "inherently broken" and assailable.

Also, the whiny bitchy thing never goes over well in terms of being a defensible starting position.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#183 - 2014-01-16 09:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
tiberiusric wrote:
OMG you whining [email protected] Big alliances trying to control eve again.

its ONLY 5% jesus christ! what is up with you. Dont use the ESS you ARE NOT FORCED to.
They're forced to do one or the other: lose 5% or gamble 20% against a potential (unlikely) gain of 5%. I say “unlikely” since the purpose of the thing is apparently to reduce the ISK influx. Not that it will achieve that goal, but still.

And if 5% is so meaningless, let's do it across the board. All bounties, incursion payouts, agent rewards, NPC buy orders, reimbursements are reduced by 5%. Reduce the daily ISK influx from 2 trillion to 1.9 rather than the measly reduction to 1.97 they're suggesting… that would more than double the effect and still have plenty of not-particularly-inflationary headroom above the ~1tn ISK daily outflow.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
If 0.0 is so much less productive than high sec? Why you guys fich so many wars for the income resources of 0.0?
Those resources tend to be on an alliance level rather than on the individual level, which is what's being hit here, and the main virtue of those resources are that they're fairly self-going. In terms of actual income, they're easily outdone by highsec ice mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#184 - 2014-01-16 09:29:49 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:



You know that this is a LIE. You know very well thatyou can make far far more isk per hour in 0.0. THe only place in high sec where you do near that level of isk per our is incursions. but those you cannot just get home and spend 30 mintues doing it. You need to get on wait list and wait for 2 hours before you start doing money.


If 0.0 is so much less productive than high sec? Why you guys fich so many wars for the income resources of 0.0?


SImplyu, this is a #[email protected]#[email protected] excuse. 0.0 income is still 2-3 orders of magnitude larger than high sec (except commerce of course)


Average earning on anoms is 90 mil an hour. You earn 120 to 180 doing SOE missions in high sec or 150 to 200 mil with incursions and unlike anoms, you dont have to stop whenever a neutral enters local.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#185 - 2014-01-16 09:30:25 UTC
Logical 101 wrote:
The entire premise of what you have just delivered rests on the truth that something is inherently broken. First of all, nothing is "inherently" broken. Things break. When fabricated (implemented), they were "working as intended", because that was what was made available. It was designed that way..


And the weakest non argument yet out of our friendly neighborhood pedant who thinks he's a word smith.
Logical 101
PowerCow Farm
#186 - 2014-01-16 09:32:44 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
And the weakest non argument yet out of our friendly neighborhood pedant who thinks he's a word smith.

Cornered?

I'm disappointed. I thought you'd keep it going.

It was fun while it lasted.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#187 - 2014-01-16 09:34:03 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
OMG you whining [email protected] Big alliances trying to control eve again.

its ONLY 5% jesus christ! what is up with you. Dont use the ESS you ARE NOT FORCED to.

if you ratted for an hour and made 80mill you would be ONLY losing 4 million isk from what you would get now. big deal! and if you live in nullsec if losing 4 million isk is a problem for you, your doing it wrong.

Sorry if your botters will now lose a little more income!

get a god damn grip

posting with my main-main because i dont give a feck, this is getting out of hand

personally if ccp wanted to nerf nullsec they should of gone further and dropped it to 50% then the ESS would go up in scale the longer its there to 110%. this would of made it a far far better and interesting concept. At the moment the 5% is so small i wouldnt even bother deploying a ESS, so ignore it.


Its the fact that over the last decade null has seen nerf after nerf to its income and we are now at the point where high sec offers much better income. This latest nerf is simply making the problem even worse. There is no reason at all to run anoms over high sec level 4s.



You know that this is a LIE. You know very well thatyou can make far far more isk per hour in 0.0. THe only place in high sec where you do near that level of isk per our is incursions. but those you cannot just get home and spend 30 mintues doing it. You need to get on wait list and wait for 2 hours before you start doing money.


If 0.0 is so much less productive than high sec? Why you guys fich so many wars for the income resources of 0.0?


SImplyu, this is a #[email protected]#[email protected] excuse. 0.0 income is still 2-3 orders of magnitude larger than high sec (except commerce of course)


The fights are over moons/rental space and it's not member-level income, it's alliance-level - you don't get the money from it, it goes into the warchest and is used for alliance investments. And yes, risk vs. reward wise hisec is a better investment - it's not a lie.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Treborr MintingtonJr
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#188 - 2014-01-16 09:39:24 UTC
Wow anybody can warp to it, ok everyone, every other ship has now become useless, lets just fly all over nullsec in interceptors stealling everybodies bounties.
Plug in Baby
Broken Hearts Love Chocolate
#189 - 2014-01-16 09:40:46 UTC
Dev time would have been better spent on Dust





..and I never thought I'd see that sentence.

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#190 - 2014-01-16 09:53:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Logical 101 wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
And the weakest non argument yet out of our friendly neighborhood pedant who thinks he's a word smith.

Cornered?

I'm disappointed. I thought you'd keep it going.

It was fun while it lasted.
I generally like your posting and agree with some things you say. But this time you really missed the mark and looked like a bit of a fool. What?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Logical 101
PowerCow Farm
#191 - 2014-01-16 10:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Logical 101
Mag's wrote:
I generally like your posting and agree with some things you say. But this time you really missed the mark and looked like a bit of a fool. What?

I just didn't get the escalation I wanted.

If you're looking for someone to toss the straw man in front of and douse it with water, you have to accept the fact that clarification of an understanding that this is what is happening is entirely possible. On top of that, you have to deal with the fish who not only willingly bite, but who also prove their point (which is utterly pointless).

What would be truly foolish would to be inconsistent.
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Fraternity.
#192 - 2014-01-16 10:14:47 UTC  |  Edited by: tiberiusric
baltec1 wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
OMG you whining [email protected] Big alliances trying to control eve again.

its ONLY 5% jesus christ! what is up with you. Dont use the ESS you ARE NOT FORCED to.

if you ratted for an hour and made 80mill you would be ONLY losing 4 million isk from what you would get now. big deal! and if you live in nullsec if losing 4 million isk is a problem for you, your doing it wrong.

Sorry if your botters will now lose a little more income!

get a god damn grip

posting with my main-main because i dont give a feck, this is getting out of hand

personally if ccp wanted to nerf nullsec they should of gone further and dropped it to 50% then the ESS would go up in scale the longer its there to 110%. this would of made it a far far better and interesting concept. At the moment the 5% is so small i wouldnt even bother deploying a ESS, so ignore it.


Its the fact that over the last decade null has seen nerf after nerf to its income and we are now at the point where high sec offers much better income. This latest nerf is simply making the problem even worse. There is no reason at all to run anoms over high sec level 4s.



mate, look the bounties in nullsec are far far higher in nullsec than lowsec or highsec. Why are you running anoms and not just belt ratting? True the anoms are pathetic isk wise, i have no idea why anom bounties in null are so bad. I never run anoms personally because i dont understand why i should spend more time on harder rats for less bounty, i just dont get why they are like that. So yes i agree with you on that part. But there is plenty of systems in nullsec with lots of belts to kill more, easier rats with much bigger bounties.

for example the highest anom BS rat could be like 900K but in a belt its 1.8mill massive difference. (dont quote me on actual numbers)

But actual belt ratting is much much better isk wise than high sec.

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#193 - 2014-01-16 10:17:52 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
mate, look the bounties in nullsec are far far higher in nullsec than lowsec or highsec.
I think you may be confusing the difference in bounties between different ships with some assumed difference between sec levels.

The latter does not exist; the former does.
Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
#194 - 2014-01-16 10:23:00 UTC
They can rather spend their time fixing **** already ingame that needs rework and balancing than spending months therorycrafting usless **** we can come up with.

Im rather annoyed that they wasted o'so long developing this in stead.
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Fraternity.
#195 - 2014-01-16 10:26:12 UTC  |  Edited by: tiberiusric
Tippia wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
mate, look the bounties in nullsec are far far higher in nullsec than lowsec or highsec.
I think you may be confusing the difference in bounties between different ships with some assumed difference between sec levels.

The latter does not exist; the former does.


Not sure what your actual point is. The fact is a BS rat bounty in nullsec for example is far higher than in high or nullsec. The sec status is not relevant per say as its relative to how eve works whether in high/low/null. Bounty gets higher the lower the sec level becomes. so in a 1.0 system it will be lower than a 0.5 system relatively speaking but thats still in the high sec band. You would be hard pressed to find a 1.85Mill BS rat in highsec

But i do agree actual anom rats bounties in nullsec is wrong, they should be the same as the belt rat bounties, otherwise why bother. Unless your thinking about getting the juicy BPC or goodies at the end of the DED anomoly which then may balance it out a bit. However normal anoms dont give juicy goodies at the end of it and the bounties are still crap so they should raise them to be the same as the belt rats imo if they want to introduce the ESS

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#196 - 2014-01-16 10:31:10 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
Not sure what your actual point is.
My point is that, as a matter of fact, any given rat pays out the same bounty no matter where you find it.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2014-01-16 10:44:55 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
You know there's a pretty huge issue when

Goonswarm Federation
Mordus Angels
Fatal Ascension
Razor Alliance
Li3 Federation
Tactical Narcotics Team
Space Monkey's Alliance
Pandemic Legion
Black Legion
Nulli Secunda
Against All Authorities
Darkness of Despair
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
The Initiative.
Brothers of Tangra
Fidelas Constans
Gentleman's Agreement
Solar Fleet
Circle of Two
The Kadeshi
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Spaceship Samurai
Executive Outcomes


all have managed to agree that the new ESS deployable is really fucking stupid.

Somebody at CCP who isn't SoniClover needs to address this issue. The ESS sucks. If you put it into the game, people are going to riot and then leave.

you mean that finally new people will be able to get into 0.0 space? And they will not need to kiss asses of scrub lords of all these alliances?

CCP: implement and deploy this module ALREADY! Let open new page of 0.0 history!

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#198 - 2014-01-16 10:46:19 UTC
I love how, with one forum post, someone believes they speak for thousands of players who are all in agreement.

I mean, seriously, what are the chances? Hell, I'd like the ESS just to **** people off and if it really does make that many people butthurt, I'm all the more tickled by that.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#199 - 2014-01-16 11:00:27 UTC
Anom rats are exactly the same as belt rats, in fact belt ratting (unless you're cycling spawn to try and spawn an officer or faction rat) is less profitable than blitzing anomalies.

I do believe rat bounties remained mostly unchanged with time and the inflation rendered them worthless. An belt spawn now is not worth as much as a belt spawn several years ago because those few million ISK won't buy you as much anymore.

There's little point to including structures like the ESS unless CCP is planning to make a big reveal of sweeping changes to PvE in 1.1 or very, very soon. I suspect this may be the case because with certain people on the CSM this idea would not really pass without heavy arguing, and it's not being talked about in public due to NDA.

The other deployables are cool, very cool in fact - the promised siphon variants look neat and the dscan disruptor can be used in so many ways. With those features being good, releasing ESS in this state seems like breaking the "if the only thing you have to say is something stupid, don't say anything at all" rule.

If I had to propose a change, it would be having the ESS units be pirate. They would cause "navy" anoms to spawn in the area and shooting the navies would generate pirate LP. I mean, we already have the thematic thing of pirates vs. concord where the latter tried to attack pirate assets in Syndicate and Curse.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2014-01-16 11:03:12 UTC
Jessica Danikov wrote:
I love how, with one forum post, someone believes they speak for thousands of players who are all in agreement.


Actually, if you so much as read the feedback thread, you'd see where I'm coming from with that statement.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.