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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
Nicen Jehr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2014-01-14 18:58:05 UTC
After the 40 second print time (what is this an inkjet?) do the ISK tags appear in cargoholds, or at the deployable, or what?
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#282 - 2014-01-14 18:58:26 UTC
+1 for adding conflict for activities without conflict. Now do the same in FW and implement timer resets Cool

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#283 - 2014-01-14 18:58:57 UTC
Yawn.........boring. No one living in their space is going to bother with this structure because of a measly 5%.

Either increase the bonus reward for having one in system, or increase the penalty for not having one in system.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#284 - 2014-01-14 18:58:58 UTC
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the current design, but someone had an idea that I thought was kinda cool and I'd like to echo it.

To wit: the TAKE ALL option is only available if you hack the ESS and complete the hacking minigame on the device. This way, interceptors are discouraged from attempting to mess with the device (as they lack hacking role bonuses) and vulnerable PvE ships (and, incidentally, less vulnerable but underutilized ships like the SoE faction ships!) have a revitalized purpose in messing with folks. It also brings a previously PvE mechanic into a PvP role.

I would like to stress that the "SHARE" option would not require the minigame, only TAKE ALL.

Perhaps this would allow a gateway into "meta" variants of the ESS (like mobile depots have "wetu" and "yurt" varietals) whose blueprints drop from ghost sites or other hacking sites. The meta variants could have higher difficulty/EHP, or perhaps only the meta varietals have the hacking minigame requirement at all.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#285 - 2014-01-14 18:59:43 UTC
Nicen Jehr wrote:
After the 40 second print time (what is this an inkjet?) do the ISK tags appear in cargoholds, or at the deployable, or what?

They appear in a can next to the ESS for anyone to grub up.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Kotori
Sacred Templars
#286 - 2014-01-14 19:01:32 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
Please explain who would drop on and destroy a structure like that. 500k EHP is far more than a roaming gang would be able to burn through. That would be a flat buff to null income. Might as well just boost ratting income and save the extra step. I do agree that the benefit from deploying one of these is a bit underwhelming. So, I'm not sure how widely used they will be.


500k EHP really isnt a lot, and i would say is a valid Target.

If you assume that as a baseline, your roaming gang has an average dps of 250 per ship

500,000 / 250 = 2000 Seconds of shooting for 1 ship.

2000 / 20 ships = 100 seconds of shooting for the gang (1min 40 seconds)

2000 / 10 ships = 200 seconds of shooting (3 mins 20 seconds).

To me, that is still not enough HP! If it can be killed in less than 5 minutes, it cannot be defended!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#287 - 2014-01-14 19:02:32 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
The only people who seem to be complaining about this structure are from bloated 10,000 player alliances that apparently don't have the organization to setup a simple intel channel or defense fleet. How hard is it to find 5 people out of that 10,000 to fly around in their own interceptors to catch invaders and have some fun?


I wish I was in a 10,000 player alliance.

What's wrong with the ESS concept is more than juat about "waa waa no safe ratting muh iskies 4 muh t00nies".

It's an added layer of hassle for alliances that live in and use their space that works in a "high risk low reward" way, contrary to the spirit of the game that historically supported (or has claimed to support) high risk high reward situations. In a world where would-be aggressors (read, the small gangs and roamers who are squealing at the thoughts of stealing from the bad ratters) decry the fact that nullsec is too empty, this is just going to further support an exodus towards more rewarding and/or less risky/complicated isk making activities that mostly are outside of nullsec. I mean, to even eke out a profit from these, from a ratter's perspective, the stars pretty much have to align.

Moving a portion of the bounty isk to a form of tags might be a cool thing for you if you're one of those people afraid of inflation, but considering these are going to be sold to NPC orders there is still ISK generated in equal amounts. However, moving up to 25% of bounties to tags that have to be told and aren't subject to corp taxes goes against the ideal model of corporation and alliance funding of "from the ground up".

Then there's the obvious elephant in the room. Why is this even needed? What's the intention behind the ESS? Sovereign space is already in a shaky enough position, I truly hope this new deployable isn't introduced merely to shake things up because without meaning to be a doomsayer, if there aren't worthy compensations coming with it things may just crash down.


First off, the locals generally won't hit the "take all" button, but will hit the "share bounties" button. They will then pay corp taxes while still benefiting from the enhanced income of the ESS.

To be frank: The ESS is a GOOD IDEA.

Why?
--- It is a potential conflict driver: These things can accrue a lot of isk, thereby making them worth fighting over.

--- It follows the Risk vs Reward Paradigm: You risk 15% of your current bounties to turn it into a extra 10% payout.

However, the ESS has some problems:
1.) The access time is too short. We want conflict to happen, and that means the locals need time to form up. 60 seconds is NOT enough time to form a response gang to the hostiles that just entered your area. I would say a 5-10 minute window is ideal for the locals to scout the neighboring systems, form up a response gang, and get their ass to the ESS to defend it.

2.) The Reward isn't high enough. I would have you risk 15% of your current bounties with the goal of it paying out at least 30%. That would be a 125% net payout on bounties if setup this way, which is then worth the entertainment that will revolve around these devices.

3.) It needs to be less game-able. I should not be able to leave a noobship alt next to the ESS ready to hit "share all" the moment a hostile comes into system. The "activation" window needs to have a 30s time-out, where anyone that doesn't chose a response within 30 seconds must leave grid and return to grid in order to activate it again.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#288 - 2014-01-14 19:03:53 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Frankly, I like the idea of the ESS, but find the response window too low. Locals need time to form up and defend it, and 60 seconds is not enough time.


Weaselior wrote:
I mean the basic thing I think about this is it's a neat idea, but I think the risk/reward balance is skewed,


So this is basically a good idea. There needs to be some changes to the time intervals and perhaps one small mechanic change and this idea is set to go. The problem is that CCP needs the feedback to adjust those timers so that defenders could reasonably catch the thief. It seems like some time testing things out on the test servers could provide CCP with some valuable feedback. I would fault CCP if they did not consider messing with the timers based on actual tested feedback. Right now the idea sounds reasonable to me and something that needs the right balancing.
Nicen Jehr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#289 - 2014-01-14 19:05:42 UTC
Querns wrote:
They appear in a can next to the ESS for anyone to grub up.
and what if you split it?
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#290 - 2014-01-14 19:06:43 UTC
Nicen Jehr wrote:
Querns wrote:
They appear in a can next to the ESS for anyone to grub up.
and what if you split it?

No tags are generated if you use the "SHARE" option. It goes directly into the wallets of the people who are owed the bounties. The tags only get printed if you hit the BOGART button.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#291 - 2014-01-14 19:07:59 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
First off, the locals generally won't hit the "take all" button, but will hit the "share bounties" button. They will then pay corp taxes while still benefiting from the enhanced income of the ESS.


You have more faith in human nature than I do

No sig.

Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#292 - 2014-01-14 19:09:32 UTC
Weird so many nulsec people complaning about this... how many CSM come from null powerblocks, they didin't saw it a problem in this form as devblog states... or they didn't saw it before us.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
#293 - 2014-01-14 19:10:09 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Hmm.

How about:
Cash out/share only by the corp/alliance of the person who dropped it. With the addition of being able to hack it, to get a spew of tags?

That should slow down the interceptors a little.


My gods, that's brilliant.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. Never forgotten, never forgiven.

Rekkr Nordgard
Borderland Militia
Zero Hedge Union
#294 - 2014-01-14 19:11:30 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
First off, the locals generally won't hit the "take all" button, but will hit the "share bounties" button. They will then pay corp taxes while still benefiting from the enhanced income of the ESS.


You have more faith in human nature than I do



It depends on whether or not there is a record generated when someone hits the take all button. If there isn't one, then that's even more incentive not to use these deployables. If there is one, then I'm pretty sure blatantly stealing from your alliance mates will get you kicked.
MasterAsher
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#295 - 2014-01-14 19:11:46 UTC
Why not share this awesome feature with other areas of space? Why must only 0.0 get such awesome mechanics? Seems a little unfair to me that 0.0 is getting singled out.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#296 - 2014-01-14 19:12:34 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
First off, the locals generally won't hit the "take all" button, but will hit the "share bounties" button. They will then pay corp taxes while still benefiting from the enhanced income of the ESS.


You have more faith in human nature than I do



It depends on whether or not there is a record generated when someone hits the take all button. If there isn't one, then that's even more incentive not to use these deployables. If there is one, then I'm pretty sure blatantly stealing from your alliance mates will get you kicked.


There is one, but nothing prevents you from using an alt.

No sig.

Bagehi
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#297 - 2014-01-14 19:14:15 UTC
Kotori wrote:
Bagehi wrote:
Please explain who would drop on and destroy a structure like that. 500k EHP is far more than a roaming gang would be able to burn through. That would be a flat buff to null income. Might as well just boost ratting income and save the extra step. I do agree that the benefit from deploying one of these is a bit underwhelming. So, I'm not sure how widely used they will be.


500k EHP really isnt a lot, and i would say is a valid Target.

If you assume that as a baseline, your roaming gang has an average dps of 250 per ship

500,000 / 250 = 2000 Seconds of shooting for 1 ship.

2000 / 20 ships = 100 seconds of shooting for the gang (1min 40 seconds)

2000 / 10 ships = 200 seconds of shooting (3 mins 20 seconds).

To me, that is still not enough HP! If it can be killed in less than 5 minutes, it cannot be defended!

Three and a half minutes... in a bubble... in hostile space... not shooting a spaceship. For, what? A couple million isk, spread over 10 people? I repeat, no roaming gang would do that. Ratters wouldn't grind a structure with a quarter of that EHP for that kind of income, you can best bet a roaming gang (looking for a person to kill) wouldn't take the time to do it.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#298 - 2014-01-14 19:15:32 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
First off, the locals generally won't hit the "take all" button, but will hit the "share bounties" button. They will then pay corp taxes while still benefiting from the enhanced income of the ESS.


You have more faith in human nature than I do



It depends on whether or not there is a record generated when someone hits the take all button. If there isn't one, then that's even more incentive not to use these deployables. If there is one, then I'm pretty sure blatantly stealing from your alliance mates will get you kicked.


Very good point:

This could be handled by local spam (which this module already does).

Upon hitting the "take all" button, the following message should appear in local:

"Johnny-the-Theif has selected take all from the ESS. An isk-tag in the amount of $$$ will be jettisoned at HH:MM:SS."

Increasing the drop-isk-tag window from 40 seconds to 3-5 minutes will give the locals plenty of time to react and blap theives.
Rekkr Nordgard
Borderland Militia
Zero Hedge Union
#299 - 2014-01-14 19:16:17 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
First off, the locals generally won't hit the "take all" button, but will hit the "share bounties" button. They will then pay corp taxes while still benefiting from the enhanced income of the ESS.


You have more faith in human nature than I do



It depends on whether or not there is a record generated when someone hits the take all button. If there isn't one, then that's even more incentive not to use these deployables. If there is one, then I'm pretty sure blatantly stealing from your alliance mates will get you kicked.


There is one, but nothing prevents you from using an alt.



An alt who would be treated by everyone else exactly like any other neutral or red entering the system and we run into all the negatives brought up previously in this thread.
Reinforced Metal Scrap
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#300 - 2014-01-14 19:17:50 UTC
The ESS "take all" option seems like a wasted opportunity to make the hacking game more relevant. It sure feels like hacking an ATM. While I can't say I'm a fan of the mechanic it's more engaging than twiddling your thumbs for 40 seconds.

Dedicated forum alt. Ingredients: 99.9% Pure Tritanium. May contain traces of peanuts.