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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

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Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#401 - 2014-01-07 22:53:17 UTC
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
What? I bet you any amount of ISK you would never catch me bearing it up in a system if you were not there already. I will be half way to warp initiation before you even press that directional scan button. That is fact.

You're validating my point: if you don't warp away shortly after I enter the system, I will catch you. And even if you make it off grid, I can cloak up and wait. Then you're done with whatever you were doing until I leave. If you had a couple of MSIs out or you and your buddies each had one while you run separate sites, I have a problem I have to solve before I can catch anyone. If you're clever about MSI use and have the capability (like, say, a mobile fitting unit), you have the option and the time to either hunt me in turn or run sites in a clever manner. If you were using MSIs and just had low SP alts docked in system, I would have to make a lot more decisions about how or whether to engage.

PvE shouldn't be easy, but neither should PvP. It should take more than my presence to lock you out of content in your system.


Well put. My biggest issue with the game is that aggressors can so easily **** with you and hinder you with so little risk to themselves. The MSI is a fantastic tool that will force aggressors to take a risk themselves or force them to scout first at least.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#402 - 2014-01-07 22:57:15 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
the prepared pilot with bookmarks in the area.


So basically we're back to Malcanis' law, and only the people who have been around long enough to be 'prepared' and already have a few thousand BMs all over nullsec will benefit.

Good job, then.


Any newb in a t1 frigate can make a set of bookmarks around a region within a night or three. You can also sell them to corp/alliance mates if you want to make some income doing it. You hardly need to be a vet to have access to such things.

Furthermore, even if you don't have them, you can use common sense: Primarily, don't warp gate to gate with hostiles in local. These things don't change the landscape when you are attempting to safely navigate hostile null / lowsec.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#403 - 2014-01-07 22:58:25 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
the prepared pilot with bookmarks in the area.


So basically we're back to Malcanis' law, and only the people who have been around long enough to be 'prepared' and already have a few thousand BMs all over nullsec will benefit.

Good job, then.


Any newb in a t1 frigate can make a set of bookmarks around a region within a night or three. You can also sell them to corp/alliance mates if you want to make some income doing it. You hardly need to be a vet to have access to such things.

Furthermore, even if you don't have them, you can use common sense: Primarily, don't warp gate to gate with hostiles in local. These things don't change the landscape when you are attempting to safely navigate hostile null / lowsec.

People don't just bubble gate to gate inlines.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#404 - 2014-01-07 23:02:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
PvE shouldn't be easy, but neither should PvP. It should take more than my presence to lock you out of content in your system.

I found a wormhole to nullsec once, and that system had an 8/10 plex in it. Never having been on the PvE side of the issue, I decided to see what this whole "gankers are going to ruin your day" thing is really all about. So I fit up my Abaddon for PvE and went to run it.

Turns out that gankers will come ruin your day, but without needing any of the fancy Rubicon modules that make everything much easier, the day ended with a Navy Omen, Deimos, two Zealots, and a Pilgrim killed, and my Abaddon still alive, with its site completed. Of course, the attackers weren't all together, and being able to kill them all was a combination of luck, preparation and skill, but even if I had not managed to kill any of them, the completion of my site and safety of my Abaddon were never in question.

It turns out that with some foresight and preparation, you can safely engage in only fights you want to engage in. The ganker has little to no control.

Had I had access to mobile depots, mobile micro jump units, and mobile sensor inhibitors, much of that fighting would simply not have happened -- especially if I were more risk-averse about welping an Abaddon. Is this the sort of effect we want from "omg wow shiny new" mechanics introduced with no reasoning or niche other than "it's cool"?


Pay 2 win multiple accounts helps too, I understand. Too bad you cancelled 27 of your accounts because of this change, huh? Looks like you are going to need them.

These mechanics are introduced for a very good reason if you were paying attention. The MSI will force aggressors to take risks or scout first and the MMJU has several excellent uses.

If you are so good at EVE, why are you crying that EVE is getting more skill demanding? You honestly make no sense, but your tears are delicious all the same.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#405 - 2014-01-07 23:05:22 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
the prepared pilot with bookmarks in the area.


So basically we're back to Malcanis' law, and only the people who have been around long enough to be 'prepared' and already have a few thousand BMs all over nullsec will benefit.

Good job, then.


Any newb in a t1 frigate can make a set of bookmarks around a region within a night or three. You can also sell them to corp/alliance mates if you want to make some income doing it. You hardly need to be a vet to have access to such things.

Furthermore, even if you don't have them, you can use common sense: Primarily, don't warp gate to gate with hostiles in local. These things don't change the landscape when you are attempting to safely navigate hostile null / lowsec.

People don't just bubble gate to gate inlines.


So what? Do you have a point?

There are very few systems with massive bubble camps that catch all celestials and gates. Those systems are generally easy to identify, and can be avoided by any half-wit. They can also be easily bypassed by an inty, by a IN T3, or by anyone with bookmarks.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#406 - 2014-01-07 23:10:08 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
aggressors


Who are these 'aggressors?'

Do you have that much of a victim mentality that you see boogeymen everywhere?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#407 - 2014-01-07 23:11:31 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
so little risk to themselves

The risk to PvEers is the loss of a ship, or loss of ISK/hr, both of which translate to money.

"Gankers" also have the risk of ship loss, but also that of time wasted, or Fun/hr. That doesn't necessarily mean actual kills. Chasing, mind-games, and the like can all be quite enjoyable. When fun is expected and it fails to materialize, it's a "blue ball" situation.

When a "ganker" jumps into system and sees a MSI on an anomaly/belt/whatever, that is an automatic blue ball situation. Without information on what is inside the MSI, the "ganker" has a couple options:

1. Go in anyway. This can have the following outcomes:

  • There was never anything there in the first place. The possible target in system might not even be in space at all. Blue ball.
  • There was something there, but it left immediately as it saw you on short range d-scan. To the "ganker" this is functionally different to the first bullet point. Blue ball.
  • It's a trap, and the "ganker" dies without a little chance to apply any skill or knowledge.


2. Set up your own MSI/cloak. This kills the Fun/Hr.

3. Leave. It's a waste of time anyway.

Where's the risk for the guy using the MSI? For a module worth 5 mil ISK, he has eliminated all forethought, preparation, and skill potential of PvP, leaving "bring more numbers to try to counter possible traps" as the only solution. This applies to any situation where someone does not want to be disturbed, and provides a serious existential threat to Eve's classic non-consensual PvP (and with it, the risk/reward structure of PvE).

I'm not saying the current situation is perfect either, and it would be nice for PvEers to have further recourse than leaving (which is already shaping to be the case, with mobile depots), but the MSI goes way too far in switching the balance of this encounter.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#408 - 2014-01-07 23:17:09 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
PvE shouldn't be easy, but neither should PvP. It should take more than my presence to lock you out of content in your system.

I found a wormhole to nullsec once, and that system had an 8/10 plex in it. Never having been on the PvE side of the issue, I decided to see what this whole "gankers are going to ruin your day" thing is really all about. So I fit up my Abaddon for PvE and went to run it.

Turns out that gankers will come ruin your day, but without needing any of the fancy Rubicon modules that make everything much easier, the day ended with a Navy Omen, Deimos, two Zealots, and a Pilgrim killed, and my Abaddon still alive, with its site completed. Of course, the attackers weren't all together, and being able to kill them all was a combination of luck, preparation and skill, but even if I had not managed to kill any of them, the completion of my site and safety of my Abaddon were never in question.

It turns out that with some foresight and preparation, you can safely engage in only fights you want to engage in. The ganker has little to no control.

Had I had access to mobile depots, mobile micro jump units, and mobile sensor inhibitors, much of that fighting would simply not have happened -- especially if I were more risk-averse about welping an Abaddon. Is this the sort of effect we want from "omg wow shiny new" mechanics introduced with no reasoning or niche other than "it's cool"?


Pay 2 win multiple accounts helps too, I understand. Too bad you cancelled 27 of your accounts because of this change, huh? Looks like you are going to need them.

These mechanics are introduced for a very good reason if you were paying attention. The MSI will force aggressors to take risks or scout first and the MMJU has several excellent uses.

If you are so good at EVE, why are you crying that EVE is getting more skill demanding? You honestly make no sense, but your tears are delicious all the same.

Why are you demanding that EVE be made even easier for the carebear?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#409 - 2014-01-07 23:17:44 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:

Pay 2 win multiple accounts helps too, I understand. Too bad you cancelled 27 of your accounts because of this change, huh? Looks like you are going to need them.

Joke's on you. I still have 52 other accounts, and that's just on my main personality. The other me might have 74 of his own.


Priestess Lin wrote:

These mechanics are introduced for a very good reason if you were paying attention. The MSI will force aggressors to take risks or scout first and the MMJU has several excellent uses.

"Take risks or scout first". Yeah, I'm sure that the people hunting me needed a lot more obstacles and scouting to let them get killed. I just had literally no chance to fight or survive under current mechanics.

"MMJU has several excellent uses". Yep, I would love it if I didn't have to fit a MJD, and I could set up "shortcut" routes to the plex's acceleration gates. My PvE experience was far too difficult, and it needs serious easing.

Priestess Lin wrote:
If you are so good at EVE, why are you crying that EVE is getting more skill demanding? You honestly make no sense, but your tears are delicious all the same.

It's not getting "more skill demanding". It's changing to demanding blind risks by aggressors (which is not skill, just stupidity), and in requiring less skill for someone defending.

I am upset because it makes Eve both easier and stupider at the same time. I'd be all up for making it harder all around: make the MSI disable the d-scan of anything inside it, and widen its effect radius to 100 km. Now everyone has to take the same blind risks, and we're on even footing. Sound good?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#410 - 2014-01-07 23:19:07 UTC
I don't understand the concern about Scan Inhibitors being used in complexes.

You already can't see what's on the other side of a jump gate unless you send a scout first. With the scan inhibitor, it can be the same way with acceleration gates. And so, too, can the use of a scout save your fleet in a scenario where a complex is Scan Inhibited. This is a good thing, since it encourages proper intel gathering, scouting, and teamwork.

I love it.

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#411 - 2014-01-07 23:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
You already can't see what's on the other side of a jump gate unless you send a scout first. With the scan inhibitor, it can be the same way with acceleration gates.

False. If jump gates worked like the current scan inhibitor does, you would not be able to see what was on the other side of the jump gate, but anyone on the other side of that gate would see you just fine.

Disable d-scan for anyone inside the MSI's range and you get the situation you described, which I would be a-ok with.

Ed: I think you're also forgetting that you can much more easily get away after jumping into a hostile system than after warping into a hostile complex. At the very least, the people waiting for you after you jump through a gate don't know an exact button that you will land on/next to. It is hard to guarantee you will catch anyone on a jump gate, simply because they could show up too far away through pure luck.

Acceleration gates also give you no gate cloak.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#412 - 2014-01-07 23:22:15 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:
so little risk to themselves

The risk to PvEers is the loss of a ship, or loss of ISK/hr, both of which translate to money.

"Gankers" also have the risk of ship loss, but also that of time wasted, or Fun/hr. That doesn't necessarily mean actual kills. Chasing, mind-games, and the like can all be quite enjoyable. When fun is expected and it fails to materialize, it's a "blue ball" situation.

When a "ganker" jumps into system and sees a MSI on an anomaly/belt/whatever, that is an automatic blue ball situation. Without information on what is inside the MSI, the "ganker" has a couple options:

1. Go in anyway. This can have the following outcomes:

  • There was never anything there in the first place. The possible target in system might not even be in space at all. Blue ball.
  • There was something there, but it left immediately as it saw you on short range d-scan. To the "ganker" this is functionally different to the first bullet point. Blue ball.
  • It's a trap, and the "ganker" dies without a little chance to apply any skill or knowledge.


2. Set up your own MSI/cloak. This kills the Fun/Hr.

3. Leave. It's a waste of time anyway.

Where's the risk for the guy using the MSI? For a module worth 5 mil ISK, he has eliminated all forethought, preparation, and skill potential of PvP, leaving "bring more numbers to try to counter possible traps" as the only solution. This applies to any situation where someone does not want to be disturbed, and provides a serious existential threat to Eve's classic non-consensual PvP (and with it, the risk/reward structure of PvE).

I'm not saying the current situation is perfect either, and it would be nice for PvEers to have further recourse than leaving (which is already shaping to be the case, with mobile depots), but the MSI goes way too far in switching the balance of this encounter.


Sorry Petrus, but I simply disagree with your scenario:

1.) Your a ganker jumping into system. You get to see how many pilots are in system, and you can chose to hunt there or not.

2.) You see an MSI on scan. If it is a trap, why didn't they just attack you when you came into system? It takes 60 seconds to anchor/online the MSI, but it takes much less time to warp to a gate.

3.) With this in mind, your options are to warp to the MSI, or look at some other anomaly. The MSI only covers a 30 km radius. How often are rats going to be shot dead within that 30 km scan-proof zone? Dscan the anomaly and see if there are NPC kills there. Alternatively, ignore it and look at the other anomalies.

Hell, increasing the price from 5m to say 20m isk to deplay will stop people spamming these in anomalies, as it will cut too much into their isk/hr.

Finally, as a hunter, I can tell you that we get blueballed over and over and over all the time. An aware ratter will warp the moment you enter local, leaving you no chance to catch them.

Do you have another reason why these break the game somehow?
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#413 - 2014-01-07 23:27:08 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
I don't understand the concern about Scan Inhibitors being used in complexes.

You already can't see what's on the other side of a jump gate unless you send a scout first. With the scan inhibitor, it can be the same way with acceleration gates. And so, too, can the use of a scout save your fleet in a scenario where a complex is Scan Inhibited. This is a good thing, since it encourages proper intel gathering, scouting, and teamwork.

I love it.


Yes. Acceleration gates and jump gates are exactly the same thing.

I can totally see what's on the other side of a jump gate waiting to come to me.

I can totally set up at 0 on a jump gate, and wait for my prey to land right on top of me and be tackled.

Jump gates totally don't deposit someone at a semi-random point in space, and they are definitely not cloaked when they arrive.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#414 - 2014-01-07 23:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Hell, increasing the price from 5m to say 20m isk to deplay will stop people spamming these in anomalies, as it will cut too much into their isk/hr.

I am mostly fine with this solution to it. It would stop them from being spammed in FW complexes, a place much more relevant to my interests than Sansha's Sanctums.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Finally, as a hunter, I can tell you that we get blueballed over and over and over all the time. An aware ratter will warp the moment you enter local, leaving you no chance to catch them.

The MSI lowers the amount of awareness required to cause blueballing by a ton. I am perfectly fine with aware PvEers getting away, but they do not need more help getting away. They need more help doing stuff other than running away, if anything. I have no idea how to accomplish that, though.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Do you have another reason why these break the game somehow?

I wrote a novel on it back on page 9: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4080247#post4080247

Right now I'm just bored and stirring crap around.

Ed: I get why my scenario doesn't sound believable, and I know that it will not be a trap 99.9% of the time. I have some sweet trap ideas for these modules, though, which I will not be sharing here.

My point was that MSIS turn hunting non-AFK people into one of two results: "there's nothing here" and "I'm not even gonna bother". A single cheap anchorable module singlehandedly doing this is completely unacceptable.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#415 - 2014-01-07 23:30:17 UTC
finally mobile scan inhibitor! now that significant changes are being done to d-scan can we make the recons you know, better at d-scanning than any other ship? so they can you know, recon!

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#416 - 2014-01-07 23:33:34 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
You already can't see what's on the other side of a jump gate unless you send a scout first. With the scan inhibitor, it can be the same way with acceleration gates.

False. If jump gates worked like the current scan inhibitor does, you would not be able to see what was on the other side of the jump gate, but anyone on the other side of that gate would see you just fine.

Disable d-scan for anyone inside the MSI's range and you get the situation you described, which I would be a-ok with.

Ed: I think you're also forgetting that you can much more easily get away after jumping into a hostile system than after warping into a hostile complex. At the very least, the people waiting for you after you jump through a gate don't know an exact button that you will land on/next to. It is hard to guarantee you will catch anyone on a jump gate, simply because they could show up too far away through pure luck.

Acceleration gates also give you no gate cloak.


I also like the idea of disbling the dscan of anyone inside the inhibitor field. This forces a fleet using it to have their own eyes on the outside of the complex.

I am all for anything that makes intel less readily available, promotes scouting, but doesn't change fleet information superiority dynamics as they currently stand. If one side is forced to have scouts, so too should the other.

Good points, sir.

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#417 - 2014-01-07 23:35:01 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Well put. My biggest issue with the game is that aggressors can so easily **** with you and hinder you with so little risk to themselves. The MSI is a fantastic tool that will force aggressors to take a risk themselves or force them to scout first at least.


MSI doesn't increase any risk. Simply make the process currently needed to find someone more boring, time expansive, less effective (close to usless) to the point that people will not bother anymore to try.

Do not ADD "risk" or anything to the game, it removes; removes engagments opportunities and gameplay by making the mechanics so boring and useless to push people in spending their time doing something else.

The lack of risk for the gankers actually come from the fact that tha ratters/PvEers is not prepared, fitted and willing to fight back (with or without good reasons, now the point is not this). MSI will not change this, only give more room to it.

They doesn't bother to trade some ISK/hour efficiency for a PVP prepared fit. Go figure if they will sacrifice precious ISK/Hour to set up traps. They will simply use this to have more room when hhalf-afk. The same as bubble being used not to force engagments or to defend against enemies but simply as a tool to slow down neutrals entering the ratting systems.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#418 - 2014-01-07 23:36:18 UTC
Morwennon wrote:
The scan disruptor seems like it might be a bit overpowered in space that's behind an acceleration gate since there will be no way to get information on whatever it's concealing without exposing yourself whereas in normal space you'd have multiple options for dong so.



doing its job

deal with it. the days of 100% intel are over

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#419 - 2014-01-07 23:36:48 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
What? I bet you any amount of ISK you would never catch me bearing it up in a system if you were not there already. I will be half way to warp initiation before you even press that directional scan button. That is fact.

You're validating my point: if you don't warp away shortly after I enter the system, I will catch you. And even if you make it off grid, I can cloak up and wait. Then you're done with whatever you were doing until I leave. If you had a couple of MSIs out or you and your buddies each had one while you run separate sites, I have a problem I have to solve before I can catch anyone. If you're clever about MSI use and have the capability (like, say, a mobile fitting unit), you have the option and the time to either hunt me in turn or run sites in a clever manner. If you were using MSIs and just had low SP alts docked in system, I would have to make a lot more decisions about how or whether to engage.

PvE shouldn't be easy, but neither should PvP. It should take more than my presence to lock you out of content in your system.


Well put. My biggest issue with the game is that aggressors can so easily **** with you and hinder you with so little risk to themselves. The MSI is a fantastic tool that will force aggressors to take a risk themselves or force them to scout first at least.

The very core issue, which I have argued for a change a good while now, is the massive difference between income levels of line members doing PvE content across the game and the ship fitting difference between what they must fit compared to a hunters PvP fit.

99% of the time a player doing PvE content will be safe before a hunter can catch them. 99% of the time the hunter will kill them if they are caught. Factor in that if the player shifts their fit to something useful for PvP, their income on the PvE content will suffer dramatically. So much so that it is more profitable for them to open up a second account to PvE in high sec to PLEX one account and generate ISK for the actual main that is in null and low sec.

That right there, is the very core issue when it comes to the hunter and prey dynamic of EVE. All this 'xyz module is going to make killing bears OP and or will make bears too safe' is just noise over the real problem. Until they properly address this we will just all sit here arguing over the 0.1% of things.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#420 - 2014-01-07 23:43:11 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Until they properly address this we will just all sit here arguing over the 0.1% of things.

For what it's worth, at least in words CCP are aware of this issue and it needing fixing. I have not seen a single viable, concrete, detailed idea on it yet though, either from players or CCP.

Maybe some day.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)