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Dear CCP please dont nerf the machariel

First post
Author
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#201 - 2013-09-20 16:32:13 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:

Nightmares find themselves as only incursion boats, where they are taken with a certain amount of disdain due to their slow speed and cap issues (cap chains... ewwww)

Chaining tach fit NMs are the best sniper boat in PVE bar none. Can apply 900ish DPS to 120km against targets that are actively MWDing while orbiting, which is almost 35% better than any other ship. This is a big freaking deal in HQ communities as we seem to be comming up on a heavy contest season again.

Also, the mach is not particularly over generous, the issue is that the falloff of ACs is roughly 5% too high as a base, and so the 50% bonus to falloff make the projection curve almost flat for several dozen KM even after reaching falloff.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#202 - 2013-09-20 16:37:08 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
And Mega is the hull of choice for cost effective harassing ATM, again, people seeing what they want to see.

Using the logic presented in the above post its time to nerf the Mega, not the Mach.

Quote:
You're not very attentive are you? The domi just took a range and tracking nerf.


It had 2 buffs and 1/4 of its 2nd buff taken away.

Machs already been nerfed a lot harder than that.


Losing dps for application is hardly a buff, and what was the other buff? All it's had was it's bonuses changed, then reduced, which adds up to a nerf.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#203 - 2013-09-20 17:04:26 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
And Mega is the hull of choice for cost effective harassing ATM, again, people seeing what they want to see.

Using the logic presented in the above post its time to nerf the Mega, not the Mach.

Quote:
You're not very attentive are you? The domi just took a range and tracking nerf.


It had 2 buffs and 1/4 of its 2nd buff taken away.

Machs already been nerfed a lot harder than that.


Losing dps for application is hardly a buff, and what was the other buff? All it's had was it's bonuses changed, then reduced, which adds up to a nerf.




When you get as much of an application buff as the Domi did, it is an overall buff. Also being able to us Garde II's at the range they can now be used at and with the tracking they now have removes the need to step down to a lower DPS sentry drone a lot of the time. So your drones are doing more paper and real DPS than they did before. Removing the gun bonus is a slight nerf but considering the fitting possibilities it is not a huge deal. I could be wrong but I assume the vast majority of PvP Domi pilots consider it a gigantic buff.


As for the thread topic: Incursions are not, or at least shouldn't be the balancing argument for saying the Nightmare is as good as a Mach. In PvP(the traditional balance factor) the Mach is flat out better.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#204 - 2013-09-20 19:43:47 UTC
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
And Mega is the hull of choice for cost effective harassing ATM, again, people seeing what they want to see.

Using the logic presented in the above post its time to nerf the Mega, not the Mach.

Quote:
You're not very attentive are you? The domi just took a range and tracking nerf.


It had 2 buffs and 1/4 of its 2nd buff taken away.

Machs already been nerfed a lot harder than that.


Losing dps for application is hardly a buff, and what was the other buff? All it's had was it's bonuses changed, then reduced, which adds up to a nerf.




When you get as much of an application buff as the Domi did, it is an overall buff. Also being able to us Garde II's at the range they can now be used at and with the tracking they now have removes the need to step down to a lower DPS sentry drone a lot of the time. So your drones are doing more paper and real DPS than they did before. Removing the gun bonus is a slight nerf but considering the fitting possibilities it is not a huge deal. I could be wrong but I assume the vast majority of PvP Domi pilots consider it a gigantic buff.


As for the thread topic: Incursions are not, or at least shouldn't be the balancing argument for saying the Nightmare is as good as a Mach. In PvP(the traditional balance factor) the Mach is flat out better.

While everyone who originally used them as sentry boats before the change consider it a buff, it loses pure damage as a brawler, so again it's only gaining one aspect to lose viability in another role. While the tracking bonus does help heavies slightly, the bonus is tailored towards increasing the performance of sentries.

I agree 100% on your statement about the macherial and nightmare, because regardless of the nightmare being better at incursions (which I don't know if it's a true statement or not) isn't a good reason not to change it because being worse at a niche role doesn't make it balanced.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2013-09-21 07:02:19 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Chaining tach fit NMs are the best sniper boat in PVE bar none. Can apply 900ish DPS to 120km against targets that are actively MWDing while orbiting, which is almost 35% better than any other ship. This is a big freaking deal in HQ communities as we seem to be comming up on a heavy contest season again.

Also, the mach is not particularly over generous, the issue is that the falloff of ACs is roughly 5% too high as a base...


I'f like to see that fit... at those ranges, you're using aurora/IN standard (or even IN Infrared, depending on your TC setup), I'd like to see what sort of officer mods you're putting on to get 900 DPS out of tachs while using aurora or IN standard. What is your ship name on D scan btw?

Regarding contests, the fleets I see winning the most contests (unless arriving significantly late), only use NMs in the mid range regime, ie 40-70km, and only have the NMs help the machs with the 70km+ targets when the fleet comp for the day is clearing out the close range targets faster than the machs can take out the long range targets.

I don't know why you're talking about ACs with machs... have you looked at the falloff they have with Arty?

1400mm Arty machs have very flat falloffs. The mach is a great sniper boat - sure its targeting range is not all that much, but every incursion boat I see runs with a Sebo anyway - the NM needs one for better scan res, while the mach's got good scan res, and runs one for range.

Why have the NM's firing at long range, when they can be pouring out more DPS at close range using Gleam/IN multi/IN Gamma?
Fettle
#206 - 2013-12-05 07:23:16 UTC
wooo! Late to this one. I hear the arguments for nerfing it, but how far do you wish it to go? It already took a slamming to it's damage projection and that takes a huge amount of wind out of it's sails since projectiles suffer from a steadily diminishing damage with falloff.

Further, there is something special about the pirate faction battleships (the ones that work as intended at least :p). The Machariel holds a wonderfully unique position of being a BS that can kite. Its tank isn't the greatest, but as a kiting ship you'd expect this. It should hold a relatively awesome speed, its defining factor. And as a kiting ship it needs projection. As it stands, the projection with Autos is still workable and forces Mach's to be closer to deliver Battleship damage... yes yes.... barrage still makes this quite OP, but hey, ceptors just got cooler. and with their baby sized sigs with mwd's on, makes me feel threatened by the little buggers.

Gone are the days of 'only a mach can catch a mach'. Stick a ceptor on and even if it gets neuted, certain talented fast tackle pilots fit a nos on to get the extra bit of cap needed for scram to re-engage.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#207 - 2013-12-05 09:41:54 UTC
Literally Space Moses wrote:
Now imagine if you were training for a supercarrier or titan. The tears when those get nerfed are going to be exquisite.



That happened alreday.. but peopel adapted. Both used to be WAAAAAY more powerful in the past.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

alexi turov
Neutronium Alchemist's
#208 - 2013-12-05 10:19:55 UTC
IIR, the Mach had been nerfed hard a couple of times in the past, so another trip to nerftown seems to be a normal part of the life cycle of this ship. Without seeing a devblog or patch notes, there's no way of knowing what will change, only that change will happen.

I, for one, hope that the extra 'engine' on top is turned into a smooth jazz generator as compensation for the removal of the speed/range/insert bonus here.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#209 - 2013-12-05 10:55:44 UTC
im not really bothered anymore my mach is collecting dust now.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#210 - 2013-12-05 10:59:58 UTC
Mathias Orsen wrote:
sounds like Rumor to me.


nope has fozzie said that it needed readjusting downwards in performance

aka nerf

it's either one of the rebalance threads, or in a phantasm thread ... can't remember specifically which
afaik the beating isn't expected to be too severe
Akonnen
Birds of Prey Inc.
#211 - 2013-12-05 11:43:41 UTC
Enough with the Minmatar nerfs, some people don't understand how falloff works. Some people in CSM need to be bitchslapped, Amarr ppl in particular. Dramiel, Machariel, tracking enhancer's, What's next? Why did you nerf the dramiel but not the crow? Why do you nerf tracking enhancer's but it's ok for the NM to hit max dps (1000+) at 120km?

If you want to balance ships then don't listen to players and do it from the heart.

Also, falloff in space is silly.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#212 - 2013-12-05 14:53:43 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
As the title says pls dont do this. I've heard rumours that a nerf is on the horizon. Is this true?

I have spent ages training for this ship and it would be a shame for all that training to go to waste....

PLEASE PLEASE dont nerf the mach.


What are you talkin about? We're going to make the Mach by far and away the best batleship in the game:

Special Ability: 25% bonus to ore compression

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Mining Laser amount per level
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to LMining Laser range per level

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#213 - 2013-12-05 14:54:52 UTC
alexi turov wrote:
IIR, the Mach had been nerfed hard a couple of times in the past, so another trip to nerftown seems to be a normal part of the life cycle of this ship. Without seeing a devblog or patch notes, there's no way of knowing what will change, only that change will happen.

I, for one, hope that the extra 'engine' on top is turned into a smooth jazz generator as compensation for the removal of the speed/range/insert bonus here.


The mach got a pretty big buff in the pirate ships rebalance a few years ago.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ghost Phius
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#214 - 2013-12-05 15:19:16 UTC
This is ALL bullshit until the "real offcial dev blog" hit the airwaves.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#215 - 2013-12-05 15:33:26 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
alexi turov wrote:
IIR, the Mach had been nerfed hard a couple of times in the past, so another trip to nerftown seems to be a normal part of the life cycle of this ship. Without seeing a devblog or patch notes, there's no way of knowing what will change, only that change will happen.

I, for one, hope that the extra 'engine' on top is turned into a smooth jazz generator as compensation for the removal of the speed/range/insert bonus here.


The mach got a pretty big buff in the pirate ships rebalance a few years ago.


You say that, but it still mines like ****. :O

Seriously though I don't have a large gripe with the machariel, I mean something has to be best right? Minmatar are built around nano just look at the falloff and low optimal on projectile weapons. You walk a thin line and profit or die. So what do you do make a AC boat without good movement-speed?
Also makes it hard not to make them Overpowered or Underpowered, imho the mach isn't that horrible an eyesore compared to other ships, not worried about it, its been around.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#216 - 2013-12-05 19:29:56 UTC
I'm just going to add my prediction here:
Machariel loses its falloff bonus.

Reasoning:
* CCP mentioned they want to bring the mach more in line with the others. Neither the vindi nor nightmare get range bonus.
* ytterbium mentioned in the marauder rebalancing thread that the role of marauders is to out tank and out project pirates, while the pirates have higher raw dmg and speed.
* when ppl complained about the vargur vs the mach in terms of dmg / projection, ytterbium had mentioned that the mach was up for a nerf, seemingly being the justification.
TomyLobo
Negative Density
D3nse Matter
#217 - 2013-12-08 03:56:04 UTC
No need to get all worked up over nerfs, tbh. I used to and I can tell you that it isn't worth it.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#218 - 2013-12-08 06:36:18 UTC
nerf the hell out of this thing. Seriously, it has more of everything than any other battleship, and more speed than most frigates.
Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#219 - 2013-12-08 06:46:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Trinkets friend wrote:
nerf the hell out of this thing. Seriously, it has more of everything than any other battleship, and more speed than most frigates.



ExceptL
tank
cap
targeting range

little things like that.

P.S. If the mach is outrunning a frigate, you have some serious work to do on your fittings and skills.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#220 - 2013-12-08 23:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Onictus wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
nerf the hell out of this thing. Seriously, it has more of everything than any other battleship, and more speed than most frigates.



ExceptL
tank
cap
targeting range

little things like that.

P.S. If the mach is outrunning a frigate, you have some serious work to do on your fittings and skills.


I think you just fell into a spiky sarcasm trap, covered in sarcastic human poop-feces (ok feecies then..). Causing you horribly painful sarcastic infections. Luckily there is a sarcastic helicopter to take you back to base. But you sure just lost a sarcastic land-war in Asia. Because you didn't watch where you where going, and maybe never should've been there.