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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2521 - 2011-11-20 10:39:20 UTC
cstray wrote:
The only reason that the Supercap Nerf is happening is because 20 Supercarriers and titans killed 475 goon drakes when they attacked a CSAA in c3n a year ago.

What this means is that sc's were the only effecive counter to the blob and since Goons cannot fight without the blob they had the dev's remove the SC's effectiveness. Same as the AOE nerf and the list goes on and on about the way the devs suck mitiani and goonswarms ****.

When this is over you will see the Goons splerge all over the map with drake gangs filled with 3m sp players and state that that is what is good for the game.


because goonswarm fields drake fleets and is the only entity in eve that supports nerfing supercaps into oblivion

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Vaffel Junior
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2522 - 2011-11-20 11:56:02 UTC
japp
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2523 - 2011-11-20 21:40:00 UTC
CCP, removing the capacity if the fighter/fighter bomber bay was the wrong final adjustment. Give super carriers the space back and instead remove the bonus range to remote repair and for the love of all that is holy, change the Hel bonus to fighter damage like the Nyx.
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#2524 - 2011-11-21 08:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahnil
Nerf supercaps!

I'm not a goon.

We once roamed with a small Drake gang through the north. We were like 5 Drakes, and at the end of the day NC2 hotdropped several titans and supercaps right on our asses. That was the lamest thing I ever saw.

I respect that everybody would do it. Maybe even I myself. The ridiculous thing about it is that it is possible.

An EVE where a solitary rifter can be doomsdayed by a titan is no EVE at all! Thank you Mittani for opening my eyes.
Angel Lust
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2525 - 2011-11-21 11:38:51 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
Nerf supercaps!

I'm not a goon.

We once roamed with a small Drake gang through the north. We were like 5 Drakes, and at the end of the day NC2 hotdropped several titans and supercaps right on our asses. That was the lamest thing I ever saw.

I respect that everybody would do it. Maybe even I myself. The ridiculous thing about it is that it is possible.

An EVE where a solitary rifter can be doomsdayed by a titan is no EVE at all! Thank you Mittani for opening my eyes.


And you could not simply warp off ?
lol
Titans and sc have something like 30sec locktime...
What was the rifter doing there ?
Was he afk ? Lol

I think you should learn more about pvp before you start complaining about those large dangerous ships Cool

But.. hey
You are getting what you want....
After patch you can safely attack supers in your drakes and rifters
They cant deffend them selves then
bacitani intaki
Big Willy Rental's
#2526 - 2011-11-21 13:51:14 UTC
Ranting of goons and new and old pets for the last year or so ,
•Supercapitals are too hard to kill.
•Supercarriers are far too versatile.
•The Titan superweapon is too powerful.
•Dreadnoughts are not good enough.
•Remote ECM Bursts should not work on ships immune to ewar.
•Sub-capitals are useless in fleet fights.


So people think its a good idea to nerf supercarriers lol fixing the log off tactic is the only fix you need
to make any supercarrier vulnerable to a cruiser fleet well is just ignorant (wanted to say stupid).But good luck with that
bet your gonna find loads of supercarrier alts like my self Expireing the account in which they live ..see ya whn you rebuff my boat
I spent 3 years training for and learning to fly , I think rather than make my nyx a pos mod like days of old I'll expire my account to save honor see ya !! thanks for the fish newbs o7
idea
Invicta.
Advocated Destruction
#2527 - 2011-11-21 17:28:00 UTC
The NYX BPC was 2-4bn 15 months ago.

The nyx BPC today is 250m~

The nyx BPO on market is 17bn

the nyx BPO on contracts researched is 13bn

Plexes are from 300m~ to 500m~ since the patch was announced, People dont buy plexes to build there supercapitals any more.

conclusion CCP killed supercapitals.

An another note im reading in the patch info on eveonline site that supers HP will go down from 10% to 20%... when first they said all supers -20%... without confirmation im willing to bet that the AEON will get -20% while most others will get -10% JUST because the aeon has a racial bonus for resistances... CCP thinking INSIDE THERE TINY LITTLE BOX ONCE AGAIN.
Maxwell Albritten
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2528 - 2011-11-21 20:05:55 UTC
bacitani intaki wrote:
So people think its a good idea to nerf supercarriers lol fixing the log off tactic is the only fix you need
to make any supercarrier vulnerable to a cruiser fleet well is just ignorant (wanted to say stupid).But good luck with that
bet your gonna find loads of supercarrier alts like my self Expireing the account in which they live ..see ya whn you rebuff my boat
I spent 3 years training for and learning to fly , I think rather than make my nyx a pos mod like days of old I'll expire my account to save honor see ya !! thanks for the fish newbs o7


Oh no, one less super cap in game! PATCH SUCCESS!
Oppenheimer Quest
The Nietzian Way
#2529 - 2011-11-22 07:18:43 UTC
Oppenheimer Quest wrote:
I may have missed it, and forgive me if I did-but.... Was there some mention of T2 Capitals weapons? I.e. T2 Capital Rails? or T2 Capital Lasers, etc, etc? If everything has a T2 brother, I'm wondering if the T2 Capital weapons are in the idea forming process. Just a thought....



Does anyone have an update to this question?Question
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2530 - 2011-11-22 10:55:20 UTC
Oppenheimer Quest wrote:
Oppenheimer Quest wrote:
I may have missed it, and forgive me if I did-but.... Was there some mention of T2 Capitals weapons? I.e. T2 Capital Rails? or T2 Capital Lasers, etc, etc? If everything has a T2 brother, I'm wondering if the T2 Capital weapons are in the idea forming process. Just a thought....



Does anyone have an update to this question?Question


I haven't heard anything about this but the t2 siege module should help a lot, combined with reduced siege timer.
wanking monkey girl
Doomheim
#2531 - 2011-11-22 11:01:58 UTC
vile t2 guns on titans has to be a win.
And given this thread has been largely ignored by ccp you will not get a answer Oppenheimer Quest.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#2532 - 2011-11-22 16:38:31 UTC
Learn this word - Balance

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2533 - 2011-11-22 21:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Temmu Guerra
Looking at this patch (from the point of view of non super pilot atm) I think it is nice to see that these ships are receiving a balance. It was bad when I was in the old NC and you had 90 super carriers + 45 titans dropped on your head and everything went "pop". However i do not think it is right for CCP to go and nerf them this much. The log off timer would have been more than plenty to start along with a better buff to the dread. Hell I will even go far to say that the 20% hp nerf is "understandable". IMO was it necessary no but I could live with. Dreads should have been the super capital killer in the capital regard with the new tier 3 bc's the sub capital fleets. The main problem is mechanics encourage blobs at the moment. If there was a point where a group was forced to split his forces up (see the Panzer Elite tanks from WWII) then they are not overpowered and can be easily taken down by a smaller well trained group. With them in such large numbers however it becomes something that can not be defeated.

I would still like to show the argument if I am going to pay 17 bill + to fit a ship (13.5 bill for the hull by the forums + price of fitting) I dam well want it to be difficult to kill. Same thing goes for the titan. I agree that a smaller ship swarm should be able to attack and kill it. My offer would be to allow supers to be jammed (unable to target) however still require the super point to keep them in place.

I would say that the supers should receive their full drone bays back (whats the point of the term "carrier" when they do not look like a bee hive) and buff dreads a bit more. I know most people here are saying "death to super caps" and I am going to say that more then half of them are from the goons + pets. As a future super carrier owner I am probably very rarely going to see combat action. These are now only going to be good for either capital engagements or tcu/station/ihub bashing. They cannot even be used for pos bashing anymore as fighters/fb's cannot hit through the pos shield. The hope is that these do not turn into pos ornaments once more (when i first started my corp mates never logged their supers on). With the current stated changes though it will be very unlikely that capitals will ever be fielded for combat anymore. Triage carriers are probably the last useful capital as any sup cap fleet will be able to do the job of a capital fleet just as well with less risk of isk + the agility of a subcap fleet.

In the coming months people will probably begin to ***** about there are no more super caps to kill.
Yulinki Atavuli
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2534 - 2011-11-22 21:32:54 UTC
Ok, in recap

Most players are asking for;

-Boost to normal carriers fuel bay

-Slave set on Super caps to be nullified

-Remote Tracking Boosters should be nullified on Titans

-Keep a close eye on the Moros during testing of hybrid buff (if not sufficient then buff)

-Decrease in drone bandwidth on SCs instead of drone-bay Nerf
Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2535 - 2011-11-22 21:37:01 UTC
Yulinki Atavuli wrote:
Ok, in recap

Most players are asking for;

-Boost to normal carriers fuel bay

-Slave set on Super caps to be nullified

-Remote Tracking Boosters should be nullified on Titans

-Keep a close eye on the Moros during testing of hybrid buff (if not sufficient then buff)

-Decrease in drone bandwidth on SCs instead of drone-bay Nerf




I like all except the slave set idea. Slave sets go for roughly 2.5 bill isk (havent checked recently) and that is considered part of the fit for a super capital. If you nerf the 20% HP + make slaves useless then that is going to be a much higher nerf to the HP then originally intended.

Everything else seems pretty reasonable to me.
Yulinki Atavuli
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2536 - 2011-11-22 21:52:49 UTC
Temmu Guerra wrote:
Yulinki Atavuli wrote:
Ok, in recap

Most players are asking for;

-Boost to normal carriers fuel bay

-Slave set on Super caps to be nullified

-Remote Tracking Boosters should be nullified on Titans

-Keep a close eye on the Moros during testing of hybrid buff (if not sufficient then buff)

-Decrease in drone bandwidth on SCs instead of drone-bay Nerf




I like all except the slave set idea. Slave sets go for roughly 2.5 bill isk (havent checked recently) and that is considered part of the fit for a super capital. If you nerf the 20% HP + make slaves useless then that is going to be a much higher nerf to the HP then originally intended.

Everything else seems pretty reasonable to me.




Most people are complaining because the nerf of the super caps won't make much of a difference when they factor in the slave set.

I haven't run the numbers myself. But, feel free to yourself.
Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2537 - 2011-11-22 22:38:39 UTC
Gotta redownload eve HQ and will hopefully get to it tonight. My argument though was Slave nerf + 20% ehp nerf would be very harsh indeed where as a 20% nerf with someone still using slaves will probably just be the equivalent to someone flying it without slaves (and lets be honest I know very few people who are flying it without slave sets)
-T
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2538 - 2011-11-22 22:41:13 UTC
Yulinki, it does make a difference.

They nerfed the base HP values.

Let's say the slave set have a 25% bonus to armor HP.

Put it on a 100 armor HP ship. It enhance it to 125 HP, right ?

Put it on a 50 HP ship. It enhance it to 62.5 HP.

The less base HP you have on a ship, the less effective percentage-based stuff is.

Check out the resistances, and why resistance rigs are broken if you compare them to extenders/trimarks.

Let's say you have those 100 HP. And 50% resistances everywhere.

A trimark is 25% to armor HP, a resistance rig is 25% to the resistance you want.

A ship with 3 trimarks will end up with :

100 * 1.25^3

Let's put it this way :

First trimark => 100 * 1.25 = 125

Second trimark => 125 * 1.25 = 156.25

Third trimark => 156.25 * 1.25 = 195.3125

See ? You added 3 * 25% rigs. But it ain't a 75% increase. It's a 95.3125% increase over base HP.

Now, resistance rigs :

When you add a 25% resistance to let's say Kinetic resistance.

In this example, you have 50% omni-resistances. Your 25% kinetic resistance rig won't result in a 75% kinetic resistance. It will add 25% of the missing part, if you see what I mean.

On 50% kinetic resistance, it will add 25% of 100 - Actual resistance. AND, it's affected by stacking penalties (Test it yourself on EFT/Pyfa. With a 50% base value. Add a first rig. You'll get 65% because resistance rigs have a 1.3 modifier. Add another rig, you'll get 74.1%, which isn't 100-65 * 30, but 100-65 * 30 * 0.87 or something, I don't remember the stacking penalties values.

With one resistance rig, you will end up with a 62.5% kinetic resistance, and that's a 12.5% increase over base value.

Please consider this is not a direct comparison, I'm not arguing about anything.
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#2539 - 2011-11-23 11:20:49 UTC
Angel Lust wrote:
Tahnil wrote:
Nerf supercaps!

I'm not a goon.

We once roamed with a small Drake gang through the north. We were like 5 Drakes, and at the end of the day NC2 hotdropped several titans and supercaps right on our asses. That was the lamest thing I ever saw.

I respect that everybody would do it. Maybe even I myself. The ridiculous thing about it is that it is possible.

An EVE where a solitary rifter can be doomsdayed by a titan is no EVE at all! Thank you Mittani for opening my eyes.


And you could not simply warp off ?
lol
Titans and sc have something like 30sec locktime...
What was the rifter doing there ?
Was he afk ? Lol

I think you should learn more about pvp before you start complaining about those large dangerous ships Cool

But.. hey
You are getting what you want....
After patch you can safely attack supers in your drakes and rifters
They cant deffend them selves then


The Rifter part is a quote. We were flying around in Drakes. We couldn't escape because of catch bubbles and aggression timers.
Zey Nadar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2540 - 2011-11-24 05:48:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Zey Nadar
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Learn this word - Balance


Due to the large size of eve player demographic, all attempts of balance will be over-compensated by the players. Not that killing supercaps is that bad a thing. Now it might be possible for me to go back to null. ..if there was a reason for it.

As pointed out by this blog, high-sec incursions killed many reasons why an average player would want to go to null and join a sov-holding alliance..

Nerfing nullsec individual income by nerfing anomalies, and then introducing high-reward/small-risk highsec income. What were you thinking again, CCP?

When will CCP learn that you simply cannot offer same option for both highsec and nullsec, that there is no way to balance risk and reward this way? The riskless option will always be favored.