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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7221 - 2013-11-04 10:16:17 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
SOL Ranger wrote:
Vargur + speed nerf + Bastion/MJD is the EVE version of Radon toothpaste.

The world is still big in some regards so I don't know what stuff you brush your teeth with, or what kind of it you're smoking, but this nerf we're talking about in effect means that in a minute the new Vargur is 7km behind the old one, when using MWD. Would you care to explain in what PVE situations this difference is so critical?


grr I just make a post about trying to stay out of this thread and see this post xD which i cant help but reply to *faceplam, but hey, im already here, so why not

estimates for you, im showing closer to:
~7.3km diff in 60 sec, so
~3.65km in 30 sec, and
~1.8KM in 15 sec

if the furthest stop distance distance is say 40km, the approx dmg differences respectively are
~9%
~4.5%
~2.25%



Now.. check the difference for peopel that used only the MJD (on some missiosn you did that)... and suddenly that gate taht was 8 km away is even more infuriating.

And if that speeds doe snto make so much difference as you claim, WHY NERF IT? Specially sicne the vargeur is the marauder that gets the LEAST form the bastion module ?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7222 - 2013-11-04 10:55:20 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Mer88 wrote:


ok explain this to me. I was in test server in a golem using 2x t2 rigors, 5 target painters, cruise missiles 4x bcs. went rattling on null sec belt. fired a few volleys at an angel bs he was using mwd for speed of 600m/s to 700m/s my volley damage was around 1000. normally it is 3.8k to 4.4k . As soon as the BS got close to me and speed went back to 200m/s i was doing full damage.

so please explain to me how mwd doesnt reduce missile damage?






i never said it would not (but you although i seriously doubt your given numbers from your sisi cause it would strongly deviate from TQ)

to my point you tried to make a point with a totally wrong example 150m/s / 2000 m/s would not be the factor of dmg reduction actually the factor would be way bigger thus you tried to make your point with false data so either you have no clue or are dishonest in your arguments.


I did not lie about the data, but i think they turned off the mwd so they were decelerating so the 500% sig boom was gone.


In my opinion, It's more likely that the ship in question got bumped by a structure/asteroid to reach excessive speeds. Normal rats won't go 2k, but those Angel BS from AE (as example) do exceed 2k ms regularly because they spawn within a structure. Some player think this is an MWD, while it comes without the sig-bloom.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7223 - 2013-11-04 11:00:22 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
SOL Ranger wrote:
Vargur + speed nerf + Bastion/MJD is the EVE version of Radon toothpaste.

The world is still big in some regards so I don't know what stuff you brush your teeth with, or what kind of it you're smoking, but this nerf we're talking about in effect means that in a minute the new Vargur is 7km behind the old one, when using MWD. Would you care to explain in what PVE situations this difference is so critical?


grr I just make a post about trying to stay out of this thread and see this post xD which i cant help but reply to *faceplam, but hey, im already here, so why not

estimates for you, im showing closer to:
~7.3km diff in 60 sec, so
~3.65km in 30 sec, and
~1.8KM in 15 sec

if the furthest stop distance distance is say 40km, the approx dmg differences respectively are
~9%
~4.5%
~2.25%



Now.. check the difference for peopel that used only the MJD (on some missiosn you did that)... and suddenly that gate taht was 8 km away is even more infuriating.

And if that speeds doe snto make so much difference as you claim, WHY NERF IT? Specially sicne the vargeur is the marauder that gets the LEAST form the bastion module ?

That's 7.3km AFTER a Minute! That is also 68km traveled in one minute while, if you MJD to a gate 68km away (in 9 seconds) then you'll be around 7km away from it IN 9 SECONDS.

The reason for that is that gates have huge activation boxes. Gates that are 75-100km away if you MJD to them you will land at or close to 0 on gate. So someone with a MJD AND a MWD can just MJD to gate Bastion up, shoot all the things and then cancel bastion before last rats are dead and MWD to gate.

Stop trying to use the Bastion Marauder like a normal marauder. Stop thinking inside your closed little box. Think outside the box! Bastion makes the Marauder competitive with the pirate battleships but in a DIFFERENT way. This is exactly what a sandbox is all about giving you different tools to accomplish the same this in roughly the same efficiency so you can decide what you want to use without being forced into using only one type of ship and using only one fit. That is why there isn't just one T2 frigate or one Battleship or one T2 Battleship.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7224 - 2013-11-04 11:03:08 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
SOL Ranger wrote:
Vargur + speed nerf + Bastion/MJD is the EVE version of Radon toothpaste.

The world is still big in some regards so I don't know what stuff you brush your teeth with, or what kind of it you're smoking, but this nerf we're talking about in effect means that in a minute the new Vargur is 7km behind the old one, when using MWD. Would you care to explain in what PVE situations this difference is so critical?


grr I just make a post about trying to stay out of this thread and see this post xD which i cant help but reply to *faceplam, but hey, im already here, so why not

estimates for you, im showing closer to:
~7.3km diff in 60 sec, so
~3.65km in 30 sec, and
~1.8KM in 15 sec

if the furthest stop distance distance is say 40km, the approx dmg differences respectively are
~9%
~4.5%
~2.25%



Now.. check the difference for peopel that used only the MJD (on some missiosn you did that)... and suddenly that gate taht was 8 km away is even more infuriating.

And if that speeds doe snto make so much difference as you claim, WHY NERF IT? Specially sicne the vargeur is the marauder that gets the LEAST form the bastion module ?

That's 7.3km AFTER a Minute! That is also 68km traveled in one minute while, if you MJD to a gate 68km away (in 9 seconds) then you'll be around 7km away from it IN 9 SECONDS.

The reason for that is that gates have huge activation boxes. Gates that are 75-100km away if you MJD to them you will land at or close to 0 on gate. So someone with a MJD AND a MWD can just MJD to gate Bastion up, shoot all the things and then cancel bastion before last rats are dead and MWD to gate.

Stop trying to use the Bastion Marauder like a normal marauder. Stop thinking inside your closed little box. Think outside the box! Bastion makes the Marauder competitive with the pirate battleships but in a DIFFERENT way. This is exactly what a sandbox is all about giving you different tools to accomplish the same this in roughly the same efficiency so you can decide what you want to use without being forced into using only one type of ship and using only one fit. That is why there isn't just one T2 frigate or one Battleship or one T2 Battleship.


You mena makign all of them behaving almost exaclty the same?


Pff I have exchanged my remaining marauders for pirate battleships this weekend. BAstion module is a HORRIBLE concept. THe mJD bonus is nice, but the bastion is incredbly mehhhh (specially for vargur).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7225 - 2013-11-04 12:43:57 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


You mena makign all of them behaving almost exaclty the same?


Pff I have exchanged my remaining marauders for pirate battleships this weekend. BAstion module is a HORRIBLE concept. THe mJD bonus is nice, but the bastion is incredbly mehhhh (specially for vargur).


You say that and comment on how the vargur is different in the same post? GJ.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7226 - 2013-11-04 13:05:00 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


You mena makign all of them behaving almost exaclty the same?


Pff I have exchanged my remaining marauders for pirate battleships this weekend. BAstion module is a HORRIBLE concept. THe mJD bonus is nice, but the bastion is incredbly mehhhh (specially for vargur).


You say that and comment on how the vargur is different in the same post? GJ.


You are incredbly naive or just try to be irritating don you?

The only way to use the new marauders is EXACLTY the same among all 4, but the vargur will become the least bennefitted. SAme WAY is not same thing as SAME POWER.

Too hard for you to grasp simple concepts? Now STOP TROLLING!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#7227 - 2013-11-04 13:28:24 UTC
So what we have is:

4 Marauders, two that can apply DPS at range, two that cant.

I'll take the vargur.

Autocannons:
MJD is pointless, as you cant jump into them - rarely are they 100k off, and using angles ... well, its a case of ok if they approach, your DPS rises, crap if they go back to 50k and spread - your dps is in the 400 range. You nuke your tank with an AB or MWD because you need to chase down spreading rats.

Artillery:
MJD to 70k at an angle. Glacial firing rate means you kill one or two ships then need to MJD away. You could try MJD to 100k, but DPS is in the 400 range (thanks CCP). When they are below 50k, traversal kicks in, and you miss more, falloff makes it work. You overvolley small stuff, wasting more dps. My tests put it at well below 400dps on a typical serp Rear Admiral.

At no time can you use Bastion unless you have a mission where they close on you, as you cannot apply high DPS from static.

What it comes down to is 2 ships get to use, and work well with bastion, but Kronos and Vargur get little to nothing on it. Rails are better ranged, but less damage choice.

AI noted that on Sisi, I simply dumped bastion, stuck on a MWD and did my normal thing in mission testing. It was faster. The MJD around game was just a PITA as you cannot use it to best effect with non optimal weapons.

Again, thanks CCP - way to think out of the box, but please rethink. An optimal bonus on the vargur maybe - mens little on autos but lots on artillery?
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7228 - 2013-11-04 13:31:39 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


You mena makign all of them behaving almost exaclty the same?


Pff I have exchanged my remaining marauders for pirate battleships this weekend. BAstion module is a HORRIBLE concept. THe mJD bonus is nice, but the bastion is incredbly mehhhh (specially for vargur).


You say that and comment on how the vargur is different in the same post? GJ.


You are incredbly naive or just try to be irritating don you?

The only way to use the new marauders is EXACLTY the same among all 4, but the vargur will become the least bennefitted. SAme WAY is not same thing as SAME POWER.

Too hard for you to grasp simple concepts? Now STOP TROLLING!

Ok I see the problem now, you're trying to use the bastion vargur like you would a bastion Paladin. Basically you get your long range and short range bastion marauders right. We're not counting the arty vargur as that has very disappointing dps. You get your long range marauder (any paladin, Rail Kronos, Cruiser Golem. The gun marauders specialise in high tracking high optimal shots meaning they get a LOT of penetrating hits so although their dps is a bit lower (Except for the Paladin since it uses short range guns at long range) they make up for it with the extra damage form penetrating hits. These ships MJD 100km out and blap things before MJD to the gate.

Then you get the short range ones, the Vargur, Blaster kronos and Torp Golem. These guys are good against ships that come in real close or alternatively at MJD right into the middle of enemies depending on mission. These guys have good tracking guns at decent ranges (around 40km give or take) but higher dps than the long range ones (except for Paladin that has good dps at long ranges as well)

In addition the Paladin is the most powerful marauder but it has somewhat limited choice of type of damage but it will do great in amarr space. The Blaster Kronos is most powerfull short range marauder but again limited damage type. The others are a bit more flexible and will be able to do damage equally to all pirate rats for the most part.

Looks to me like the 4 marauders are pretty diverse...

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#7229 - 2013-11-04 13:36:46 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
So what we have is:

4 Marauders, two that can apply DPS at range, two that cant.

I'll take the vargur.

Autocannons:
MJD is pointless, as you cant jump into them - rarely are they 100k off, and using angles ... well, its a case of ok if they approach, your DPS rises, crap if they go back to 50k and spread - your dps is in the 400 range. You nuke your tank with an AB or MWD because you need to chase down spreading rats.

Artillery:
MJD to 70k at an angle. Glacial firing rate means you kill one or two ships then need to MJD away. You could try MJD to 100k, but DPS is in the 400 range (thanks CCP). When they are below 50k, traversal kicks in, and you miss more, falloff makes it work. You overvolley small stuff, wasting more dps. My tests put it at well below 400dps on a typical serp Rear Admiral.

At no time can you use Bastion unless you have a mission where they close on you, as you cannot apply high DPS from static.

What it comes down to is 2 ships get to use, and work well with bastion, but Kronos and Vargur get little to nothing on it. Rails are better ranged, but less damage choice.

AI noted that on Sisi, I simply dumped bastion, stuck on a MWD and did my normal thing in mission testing. It was faster. The MJD around game was just a PITA as you cannot use it to best effect with non optimal weapons.

Again, thanks CCP - way to think out of the box, but please rethink. An optimal bonus on the vargur maybe - mens little on autos but lots on artillery?



Torp golems get the same bag of "almost nothing" from the range bonus that the Vargur gets. As for the Vargur getting an optimal bonus, that would actually help autos quite a bit as well. Right now, Bastion extends an autocannon's effective range by about 10km.

Extending the falloff out to infinity doesn't help much if your optimal only extends another 5-7km.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#7230 - 2013-11-04 13:41:14 UTC
People are starting to get it:

Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M
Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M
Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M
Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M

In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped.
The market is speaking CCP.

These changes are garbage.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#7231 - 2013-11-04 13:49:09 UTC
I bet you've been checking the market every day since this announcement just to find anything close to a 10% fluctuation to prove your point.

Take off the tinfoil hat and adapt.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#7232 - 2013-11-04 14:03:24 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Torp golems get the same bag of "almost nothing" from the range bonus that the Vargur gets. As for the Vargur getting an optimal bonus, that would actually help autos quite a bit as well. Right now, Bastion extends an autocannon's effective range by about 10km.

Extending the falloff out to infinity doesn't help much if your optimal only extends another 5-7km.



Yes - Golems seem to get little from this, save midslots and painters to use for damage application which can be applied at range or not at all.

Its like telling a politician that they're doing it wrong - CCP cant see the woods for the trees on this. Bastion makes me sit still and apply crap DPS - its use is moot. For below, Bastion used. The sweet spot is lasers, high dps pulse can hit to rat range fine. The rest cant, but we get a long range boost.

For Golem - its fine, as long as you use cruise. Decent DPS
For Paladin - fine, lasers. Good DPS
For Kronos - fine, rails, poor dps.
For Vargur - fine, artillery - lots of wasted, badly applied poor dps.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7233 - 2013-11-04 14:36:03 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
These changes are garbage.

The Golem is now completely dependent on target painters since the new RHMLs won't receive the Golem's damage bonus. But I guess that won't be a problem to micromanage since you'll just be sitting there anyway...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#7234 - 2013-11-04 14:47:35 UTC
I fail to understand how you cannot figure out the good **** you can do with those MJD/Bastion-boni and excessive highs + grid, aswell as an extreme repoutput out of one armor-repairer/pith c-type only...

Just tryin those on SiSi is... blasting my mind. Coolest ships in the game for everything wormhole-smallscale pvp. A vanilla-1450dps dropkronos still tanks ~2.7k ehp/s, has dualprop and unlimited cap boosters, poops on all droneboats and got an anticruiser heavy neut. Want.


I admit I do not know how they perform in pve outside of solo c4s, for which they are mindblasting aswell. (Vargur tanks a c4 anom on a T2 large...)
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#7235 - 2013-11-04 15:02:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Torp golems get the same bag of "almost nothing" from the range bonus that the Vargur gets. As for the Vargur getting an optimal bonus, that would actually help autos quite a bit as well. Right now, Bastion extends an autocannon's effective range by about 10km.

Extending the falloff out to infinity doesn't help much if your optimal only extends another 5-7km.



Yes - Golems seem to get little from this, save midslots and painters to use for damage application which can be applied at range or not at all.

Its like telling a politician that they're doing it wrong - CCP cant see the woods for the trees on this. Bastion makes me sit still and apply crap DPS - its use is moot. For below, Bastion used. The sweet spot is lasers, high dps pulse can hit to rat range fine. The rest cant, but we get a long range boost.

For Golem - its fine, as long as you use cruise. Decent DPS
For Paladin - fine, lasers. Good DPS
For Kronos - fine, rails, poor dps.
For Vargur - fine, artillery - lots of wasted, badly applied poor dps.


A specific dev who shall remain nameless insisted to me that the range boost is fine because the Kronos gets great range with Null. 'Tis a pity that not everyone can use Null.

Maybe I'll strap some pulse lasers onto my Vargur. That should work.. right?
Shivanthar
#7236 - 2013-11-04 15:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Anize Oramara wrote:

So you complain that the marauders suck because you are using them wrong they don't fit your preferred playstile?


Now I'm sure that you're kidding with me. But you already wrote the answer by yourself. Just a little touch up will work fine: They won't fit my preferred playstyle. Vargur has been satisfying my needs so far. I am not in request of something new. I just don't want my playstyle to be ***** up by sentry-gun hungry pilots who have been lazy to train gallente BS to level V and get sentry drones with a dominix.

Second, for the "suck" part:

- If they suck, I wouldn't use them.
- If there were no enjoyment for me, I wouldn't have trained for it.
- If the *efficiency* word has any intersection with Machariel other than the only "ie" in the word itself, I would use that instead of a Vargur.
- If you have read my past posts, you'd never come up with an argument like this.
- Recommending *will be nerfed* and *not running-cost-efficient* Mach to a *Marauder* pilot, or more precisely, a Vargur pilot, under Marauder balance thread, who have been trying to argue about marauder balance/bonus issues is not a good idea. It won't produce anything.

For a regular lvl4 mission-runner like me, new bonuses doesn't add anything valuable on my arsenal. Instead they take away some numbers from me. I didn't like the idea, Vargur without bastion shouldn't get nerf of any kind. Marauders needed a balance, not a mod that turns it into a maelstrom-dominix combination.

If there is another mobile ship I can fly and salvage at the same time with same/better efficiency and the similar characteristics of a Vargur, please suggest that, other than that, please do not imply *you're idiot* kind of reply, since I'm just trying to preserve what I've got so far in this game.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#7237 - 2013-11-04 15:07:31 UTC
i think we could agree to the following:

Forceing marauders to get stationary to fully utilize their bonuses is a design flaw
Shivanthar
#7238 - 2013-11-04 15:10:38 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
i think we could agree to the following:

Forceing marauders to get stationary to fully utilize their bonuses is a design flaw


Well said...

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#7239 - 2013-11-04 15:20:10 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Torp golems get the same bag of "almost nothing" from the range bonus that the Vargur gets. As for the Vargur getting an optimal bonus, that would actually help autos quite a bit as well. Right now, Bastion extends an autocannon's effective range by about 10km.

Extending the falloff out to infinity doesn't help much if your optimal only extends another 5-7km.



Yes - Golems seem to get little from this, save midslots and painters to use for damage application which can be applied at range or not at all.

Its like telling a politician that they're doing it wrong - CCP cant see the woods for the trees on this. Bastion makes me sit still and apply crap DPS - its use is moot. For below, Bastion used. The sweet spot is lasers, high dps pulse can hit to rat range fine. The rest cant, but we get a long range boost.

For Golem - its fine, as long as you use cruise. Decent DPS
For Paladin - fine, lasers. Good DPS
For Kronos - fine, rails, poor dps.
For Vargur - fine, artillery - lots of wasted, badly applied poor dps.


A specific dev who shall remain nameless insisted to me that the range boost is fine because the Kronos gets great range with Null. 'Tis a pity that not everyone can use Null.

Maybe I'll strap some pulse lasers onto my Vargur. That should work.. right?


Honestly the Vargur is the only one that draws the short straw in this, and that's because of the crappy way autocannons work. The other three have excellent applications across the board (really if you're using rails in a Kronos post patch for PvE, reconsider your fit and flying method) and high DPS.

I do feel for Vargur pilots, though I feel autocannons may well be in for some reworking once they're done kicking the Machariel in.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#7240 - 2013-11-04 15:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
People are starting to get it:

Kronos: 1 month ago In Jita: 1019M, today: 979M
Paladin: 1 month ago In Jita: 1001M, today: 923M
Vargur: 1 month ago In Jita: 948M, today: 937M
Golem: 1 month ago In Jita: 1006M, today: 1099M

In 3 of the 4 cases, prices have dropped.
The market is speaking CCP.

These changes are garbage.


yes totally a 4% market flux totally spells disaster

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.