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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

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DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#821 - 2013-10-17 02:06:15 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
We are planning on doing two surveys so that each can focus on one aspect of the can of worms that has been opened. Also so we do not create some monstrous 45 minute wall of text nobody has the endurance for.

The surveys will likely be posted or linked in the forums but CCP may also choose to run a parallel one similar to customer surveys they do, now and again, to get opinions from beyond the forums. This is a good idea because a self selected sample for a survey always makes the results questionable although at times such methodology is unavoidable.

There will be 'grey area' choices because not everything is black and white.

I do look forward to seeing both the survey and your opinions on it.

m



Are you the guys from RvB??????????
Frying Doom
#822 - 2013-10-17 02:09:05 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
We are planning on doing two surveys so that each can focus on one aspect of the can of worms that has been opened. Also so we do not create some monstrous 45 minute wall of text nobody has the endurance for.

The surveys will likely be posted or linked in the forums but CCP may also choose to run a parallel one similar to customer surveys they do, now and again, to get opinions from beyond the forums. This is a good idea because a self selected sample for a survey always makes the results questionable although at times such methodology is unavoidable.

There will be 'grey area' choices because not everything is black and white.

I do look forward to seeing both the survey and your opinions on it.

m

Could you demonstrate one of these "grey areas" because personally I see no need for grey areas within a survey.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Shai 'Hulud
#823 - 2013-10-17 02:09:29 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
This is a good idea because a self selected sample for a survey always makes the results questionable although at times such methodology is unavoidable.

There are many cases where a self selected sample is desirable, and the only way to ensure the survey is relevant. Who exactly on the CSM has experience in properly constructing a survey such that it actually provides reliable results?

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#824 - 2013-10-17 02:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
There are no grey areas in the RMT side of this.

SOMER and EVE-Games are converting isk and in game material into cash.

That's RMT. Read my explanation of this (it's like post 510 or something).

Perhaps those involved did not even realize it - but they it is RMT, and they should stop.
Lelira Cirim
Doomheim
#825 - 2013-10-17 02:23:42 UTC
Argus Sorn wrote:
If CCP started selling IW Scorps and SOE ships in the Aurum store the game would sink in a week.

Sell me paint jobs for ships I already own for 50 AUR each. Cool

Do not actively tank my patience.
Shai 'Hulud
#826 - 2013-10-17 02:26:35 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
This is a good idea because a self selected sample for a survey always makes the results questionable although at times such methodology is unavoidable.

There are many cases where a self selected sample is desirable, and the only way to ensure the survey is relevant. Who exactly on the CSM has experience in properly constructing a survey such that it actually provides reliable results?

For example:

Polling players who are lacking in knowledge of what has transpired, let alone had time to think the issue over, instantly makes the poll invalid. It's like asking someone who has never played EVE whether they think 0.0 space should have a local channel. Their opinion is useless due to ignorance.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Ethan Snow
Always Brave
#827 - 2013-10-17 02:57:57 UTC
Argus Sorn wrote:
SOMER and EVE-Games are converting isk and in game material into cash.


How under-informed and over-opinionated the forums can be staggers, sometimes.

Those two are far, far, far from the only ones doing this.

Other sites that monitize their websites for ISK:

eve-bet - credit for GTC referrals
Everalerpalous - credit for GTC referrals
Mittens rumor/drama site - isk for articles, cash for advertising.
EN24 drama site - isk for articles, cash for advertising
New Eden Club - credit for referrals
Win your fortune - credit for referrals
Eve hosts - Paying money for server/ts/jabber space, charging users isk to use that space

Websites monitizing to cover server costs has been accepted for ages.

Hell, Battleclinic is even a full-blown reseller.
Chribba has more advertisements on his sites than the average city bus.

And so on.

All those 3rd party sites you all love so much - they aren't free to run.
Frying Doom
#828 - 2013-10-17 03:04:54 UTC
Ethan Snow wrote:
Argus Sorn wrote:
SOMER and EVE-Games are converting isk and in game material into cash.


How under-informed and over-opinionated the forums can be staggers, sometimes.

Those two are far, far, far from the only ones doing this.

Other sites that monitize their websites for ISK:

eve-bet - credit for GTC referrals
Everalerpalous - credit for GTC referrals
Mittens rumor/drama site - isk for articles, cash for advertising.
EN24 drama site - isk for articles, cash for advertising
New Eden Club - credit for referrals
Win your fortune - credit for referrals
Eve hosts - Paying money for server/ts/jabber space, charging users isk to use that space

Websites monitizing to cover server costs has been accepted for ages.

Hell, Battleclinic is even a full-blown reseller.
Chribba has more advertisements on his sites than the average city bus.

And so on.

All those 3rd party sites you all love so much - they aren't free to run.

Besides the approved buy GTC for cash, which of these sites are put RL money in, get isk out? after all that is what Real Money Trading is all about? paying for a service in isk or a completely separate advertising is ok, as they are not swapping cash for isk.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ethan Snow
Always Brave
#829 - 2013-10-17 03:08:07 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Besides the approved buy GTC for cash, which of these sites are put RL money in, get isk out? after all that is what Real Money Trading is all about? paying for a service in isk or a completely separate advertising is ok, as they are not swapping cash for isk.


All of the listed examples monitize their sites.

Let me ELI5 for you - Person A pays RL cash for a TS server. Person B gives ISK to person A to use a TS server. Person A just traded cash for ISK.

Or:

Person A writes a rumor article. Person B gives person A isk. Person B sells advertising space for RL cash on the article. Person B just traded ISK for cash.
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#830 - 2013-10-17 03:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
Ethan Snow wrote:
Argus Sorn wrote:
SOMER and EVE-Games are converting isk and in game material into cash.


How under-informed and over-opinionated the forums can be staggers, sometimes.

Those two are far, far, far from the only ones doing this.

Other sites that monitize their websites for ISK:

eve-bet - credit for GTC referrals
Everalerpalous - credit for GTC referrals
Mittens rumor/drama site - isk for articles, cash for advertising.
EN24 drama site - isk for articles, cash for advertising
New Eden Club - credit for referrals
Win your fortune - credit for referrals
Eve hosts - Paying money for server/ts/jabber space, charging users isk to use that space

Websites monitizing to cover server costs has been accepted for ages.

Hell, Battleclinic is even a full-blown reseller.
Chribba has more advertisements on his sites than the average city bus.

And so on.

All those 3rd party sites you all love so much - they aren't free to run.



1) I never said they were the only ones.

2) Some of your examples are not RMT at all. To be RMT, isk must be converted into real dollars. Trading items, webspace, articles, etc. for isk is not the same thing - and the differences are subtle, but it is the monetization of the in game currency that is the villain here. In other words, cash for isk and isk for cash are different and have different impacts on the economy in game. And CCP should do what they can to prevent that.
Ethan Snow
Always Brave
#831 - 2013-10-17 03:18:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ethan Snow
Argus Sorn wrote:
Trading items, webspace, articles, etc. for isk is not the same thing.


If I pay cash for webspace then charge ISK for that webspace, how have I not converted cash into ISK?

If I pay ISK for people to draw advertising views, then accept cash for those advertisements, how have I not converted ISK to cash?
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#832 - 2013-10-17 03:20:32 UTC
Ethan Snow wrote:
Argus Sorn wrote:
Trading items, webspace, articles, etc. for isk is not the same thing.


If I pay cash for webspace then charge ISK for that webspace, how have I not converted cash into ISK?



The heart of RMT is the conversion of in game currency to cash. It is what provides the incentives for farming and inflation.
Frying Doom
#833 - 2013-10-17 03:20:39 UTC
Ethan Snow wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Besides the approved buy GTC for cash, which of these sites are put RL money in, get isk out? after all that is what Real Money Trading is all about? paying for a service in isk or a completely separate advertising is ok, as they are not swapping cash for isk.


All of the listed examples monitize their sites.

Person A writes a rumor article. Person B gives person A isk. Person B sells advertising space for RL cash on the article. Person B just traded ISK for cash.

So person B spends money on a server, programs it ect and pay out for isk as well and is guaranteed isk from advertising from a completely separate party?

See they are not connected, the person who pays out the isk is not guaranteed to receive money from yet another party.

RMT is put money in get isk/items out they are connected events. Advertising is not a connected event. There is a big difference between a site that supports the community and a site that is primarily there as a business.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Shai 'Hulud
#834 - 2013-10-17 03:22:48 UTC
Ethan Snow wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Besides the approved buy GTC for cash, which of these sites are put RL money in, get isk out? after all that is what Real Money Trading is all about? paying for a service in isk or a completely separate advertising is ok, as they are not swapping cash for isk.


All of the listed examples monitize their sites.

Let me ELI5 for you - Person A pays RL cash for a TS server. Person B gives ISK to person A to use a TS server. Person A just traded cash for ISK.

Or:

Person A writes a rumor article. Person B gives person A isk. Person B sells advertising space for RL cash on the article. Person B just traded ISK for cash.

The difference is that it has been legal to pay ISK for game related services such as those you listed for a long time (even if they cost the provider real $). The SOMER model uses ISK as an incentive to buy gtc's through them. You are not paying ISK for a game related service, as this is completely separate from the gambling site function. SOMER could almost as effectively just have a site with nothing but the link to buy the GTC's. So in this case they are not buying a game related service with ISK (legal), they are directly buying cash with ISK.

In your first example ISK is exchanged for the game related service of TS server.

In your second example ISK is exchanged for the game related service of writing an article about something in the game. Basically RP of a journalist charging for their services.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Ethan Snow
Always Brave
#835 - 2013-10-17 03:22:51 UTC
The only difference I see in what you're protesting and what you're white-knighting is that the white-knighting version is done by the person who told you to be upset about the protesting version.
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#836 - 2013-10-17 03:23:52 UTC
Ethan Snow wrote:
The only difference I see in what you're protesting and what you're white-knighting is that the white-knighting version is done by the person who told you to be upset about the protesting version.


It may be the only difference you see.

That does not mean it's the only difference.
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#837 - 2013-10-17 03:26:13 UTC  |  Edited by: raven666wings
EVE-GAMES wrote:
EDIT: I OWN AN EVE LOTTO SITE https://eve-games.net
-RMT-

I agree this is a grey area and the language could be clearer, BUT looking at the EULA... the current system I, and other sites, employ DOES seem to be within the rules. It would be nice to have some clearer language though...

We implemented our "Credit for GTC Purchase" program for a couple of reasons.
1) We had to, to be competitive with other sites.
2) There is really no other "thing" that we can offer as incentives to our users to purchase time codes from us.

We will continue to offer the credits for GTC purchases. Unless it becomes specifically forbidden by a change in language in the EULA, or we are asked to stop by the owners of the game.


Well, that came as a surprise to me as I was not aware that other GTC reseller sites besides Somer Blink's were offering isk bonuses for the GTC purchases. It seems CCP has given us the answer that we were looking for although we had not seen it yet (Somer Blink's RMT is legit and everybody is allowed to engage in similar conduct).

The EULA section 6 paragraph B (Conduct - Selling Items and Objects) is clear and in my opinion this is not a matter of "grey areas" or "overshadowed language", but rather a matter of interest and arbitrary interpretation by those who made the rules and have the power to enforce, change or neglect them.
One could argue about different interpretations of this specific part of the rules of conduct and defend the legitimacy of the use the isk tokens to reward GTC purchasers, as they are not sold directly for real money but rather "gifted" as a reward through the in-game trading mechanism, but the same could be said about the actions of players who engaged in "bad forms of RMT" and whose accounts are banned everyday by Team Security, since all the character isk or PLEX transactions are necessarily done in-game aswell, and not automatically connected to real money, unless CCP presumes they are.

Aknowledging the use of isk tokens to reward the GTC referrals in Somer Blink, EVE-GAMES.NET and other websites, CCP has apparently allowed everyone to set up their own GTC resale referral system+isk token reward.
Official confirmation from CCP on this would be nice before we proceed so that we not risk getting accounts banned for misunderstandings.

Farmer Pigz REJOICE \o/ Time to cash those fat loads of isk into real money too Twisted
Frying Doom
#838 - 2013-10-17 03:26:50 UTC
Ethan Snow wrote:
The only difference I see in what you're protesting and what you're white-knighting is that the white-knighting version is done by the person who told you to be upset about the protesting version.

So what can I get out of somer blink without giving them isk or buying GTC, compare this to what I can get from DOTLAN without giving them isk or cash. Then tell me they are the same.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ethan Snow
Always Brave
#839 - 2013-10-17 03:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ethan Snow
Both scenarios are using ISK to create content on a website that has monitization features to offset server costs. In both scenarios, without the ISK-generated content, the monitization feature wouldn't be used.

That you like one type of content or dislike a different type is irrelevant to whether it's sanctioned behavior or not.

But by all means - carry on with your crusade. I'm reminded why it's better to play the game than the play the forums once again.
Frying Doom
#840 - 2013-10-17 03:34:42 UTC
Ethan Snow wrote:
Both scenarios are using ISK to create content on a website that has monitization features to offset server costs. In both scenarios, without the ISK-generated content, the monitization feature wouldn't be used.

That you like one type of content or dislike a different type is irrelevant to whether it's sanctioned behavior or not.

But by all means - carry on with your crusade. I'm reminded why it's better to play the game than the play the forums once again.

You missed that one I cannot use without giving isk or cash, while the other I have no need to give isk or cash to use.

Rather a big difference. One is for the community the other is set-up specificly for the benefit of the site owner.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!