Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Well, the RNI has a +25% explosion radius vs. the Golem's +25% explosion velocity, and since I have three rigging slots on the RNI I can almost match the Golem's explosion velocity bonus with a T2 flare and still have a +25% explosion radius over the Golem with T2 rigors (which I'm not necessarily convinced the Golem can actually afford to run).

The RNI isn't exactly sluggish, either - so with a Deadspace afterburner you'll easily push 500 m/s (and it has the grid for a MWD if so desired). So that frees up another mid slot right there, and of course there's the extra low slot on the RNI as well which I can use to run a fourth ballistic control, drone damage amplifier (since I can still run three sentries on the RNI) or passive signal amplifier to extend targeting range and scan resolution.

I could also mention I've got twice the power grid, 35% more capacitor and at least 50% more in base shield, armor and structure on the RNI. So while the T2 resists are (and will) be nice, the Golem will need them since it's basically going to be a stationary weapons platform.

No argument that the SNI is a beast. However, in terms of damage it still falls short (6.25%) over the RNI. And it's not just the damage - it's the effective application, and the RNI wins hands down with the +25% explosion radius bonus. The SNI is also a lot slower (100-150m/s), which kind of negates the resist bonus it receives. It also lacks the velocity bonus which relegates it to utilizing cruise missiles to get decent range. The new Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher should be interesting on the SNI.

I'm not saying the Golem sucks, just that there are far cheaper and less skill-intensive options.
(ok, maybe I am saying the Golem sucks...)

Yeah, but the Caldari do it so well... Apparently we're going to see a SoE battleship, but that will probably be lasers and drones. A Caldari-Minmatar hybrid battleship (pure missiles) would be an interesting beast, but since each of the pirate factions already has a battleship...

No.. what is missing from the game would actually be a missile and armor hull.

Caldari and minmatar are both shield and both have missile focused ships.

Armor and missiles would seem to make a good torp fit...
I just can't think of a good bonus for it... ECM?
Perhaps just give it really good mobility, mwd bonus, and warp disruptor range and/or point bonus?


Edit...

give it good mobility with mwd cap usage bonus, then give it a range bonus to warp scrams.
Seems like a good fit that would be designed to get to like 24km, warp scram to shut off mwd, and then pound...

Just commenting to add my voice to the others in this thread condemning the proposed changes; particularly those headed to the Golem.

There's a lot of different issues, but one of the most glaring is the web bonus. It just reeks of laziness since it's in direct competition with target painters and tank for slots and is seeminly only there because it's what you gave the others and you think it may have some sort of PvP value. All the bonuses to damage application seem unnecassary when torps are in their current useless state, but perhaps if you buffed torps like you did cruise I could see the Golem being useful. Until then it's just completely useless and massively outclassed by the Paladin/Vargur.

On the subject of PvP viability, what is your vision for these ships? In the current iteration they're far too squishy for fleet warfare, too expensive/immobile for low sec gang work (post insurance these are on the level of a capital loss if not worse), bad for WH work due to their large mass/sig radius and dread blapping, and just all around a worse PvP choice than a pirate battleship. I'm trying really hard to envision a scenario where I'd use one of these for PvP and I honestly can't think of a single one.

Somebody enlighten me please.

Well, I guess that's the only redeeming quality of Bastion at this point.

Exactly. It's not that their bad, it's just for anything they can do, some other ship can do better (and cheaper). From my PvE perspective only the ewar immunity is unique. And I just can see a scenario where I would use this ship in PvP.

As for hulls:

1) Kronos - probably only one ok (but a PvE blaster boat...) - it will be the only one viable in PvP.
2) Golem - TP/web bonus is just silly...
3) Paladin - needs resist altered and a 3rd useful bonus (instead web or capacitor - tracking is logical choice comparing to vargur and kronos).
4) Vargur - needs its resisted altered, web is kinda meh since its a shield ship.

Really do all those ships need web? Except Kronos maybe (outside bastion)?

thinking another part of the problem also is ccp confusing a ship's role with its function within that role.

most t2 ships can perform several roles but have a specialty in performing one function within their role.

as an example: a heavy interdictor is a type of brawler with the specialized function of tackling EWAR immune ships

a curse is a skirmisher that focuses on the functions of energy warfare and tracking disruption.

a marauder now is a broad spectrum ship, it specialises in performing many roles and can do so due to its damage projection, repair bonus and utility high slots, but at the cost of poor targeting and lower fitting totals and lower EHP compared to the t1 counter parts.

making the marauders very dependent on spartan like teams to function in PVP, teams where each ship in some way bolsters weak points of the others. (revolving around the marauder core - seen in HUN's demonstration during the tourney last year)

what it really needs isn't so much a rebalance as a reinforcement - it already does something well it just needs to be brought in line in such a way that it surpasses t1 hulls.

you could almost fix the marauders simply by giving them the same kind of base HP as the t1 battleship counterparts, and reducing the ECM weakness slightly.

if you do this they're better at brawling than t1 hulls due to cap warfare, could run remote repair doctrines, or could snipe

their lower speed still excludes them from most kite or skirmish warfare but the damage projection means they can pose a challenge to those too.

they still would not beat any one ship in terms of raw damage or cost effectiveness - but they would provide something that the typhoon used to, and that is a ship that can pull pandora's box on you if it needed to - by being able to swap quickly between different styles based on situation.

the only reason i suggest this kind of specialization (in being versatile team dependent hulls) is because of the prior point of having so few battleship hulls on the t2 level that can bridge into specific doctrines, the marauders and blops aren't like frigs and cruisers
that quite literally have one hull capable of performing 2 or more roles per and a specific function inside that role,

they have two ships between 5 roles, the blops gets the specialized function of the jump drive (mobility) and between the races has specific functions within most doctrines, because they can move so well blops oppose marauders by being far more independent hulls - they can dictate the terms of a fight that the marauders cannot.

panthers kite, redeemers tank, widows have ECM and the SIn is just useless and forever will be ;)

- the marauders get a mix of different tactics that depend on working with other ships to fully utilize, which is great but for it to be worth doing it needs to be easier to support these ships in combat, they lack mobility and so need staying power.

for now, just buff their ehp and sensors, then after you've added more t2 battleships you can set to work on giving them function specializations that match those seen in cruiser sized hulls - stop trying to balance these ships using the same rule set the cruisers used - they aren't cruisers and their circumstances are very very different.

To summarize:
T2 resists +1 ... Animation +1 ... MJD +1
Revised stats ±0
Slot layout -1 ... Bastion functionality -2 ... Loss of role bonuses -2
Marauder bonuses -5
.....

Slot layout: Swap the high out for a mid, and give all an extra low.
Roll bonus: 100% damage, 70% MJD reactivation, 37.5% shield boost/armor repair
Marauder bonus:
Paladin: 5% large energy damage, 7.5% tracking speed
Golem: 5% missile damage, 5% explosion radius
Kronos: 5% hybrid damage, 7.5% tracking speed
Vargur: 5% projectile damage, 7.5% tracking speed

Bastion: Something cool. How about a 10% rate of fire per Marauder level?

You know, I could live with the 2nd iteration Golem if they just changed the damned color...

the golem is difficult, as the primary difference the marauders have over the t1 hulls is sheer damage application - they are quite literally nothing but pure guns with a bit of resilience through repair amount, the golem doesn't track the same way the other three do and so it loses out a bit on this front.

the kind of difference between say the machariel fleet pest and vargur is that

the fleet pest gets good damage at close ish range and good energy warfare

the machariel gets the same range as the vargur but much worse tracking and utility (vargur can hit MWD frigs at 12 km with a few scripted tracking comps :3 )

the fleet phoon's more in line with the panther than the vargur so the two don't really compete much,

the vargur can make use of most of these same situations, and then add a little bit more - excepting energy warfare due to power grid issues, and the use of 1400's for the same reason.


the remaining two don't have the same PG issue, such that in a straight up fight a kronos would almost always out last a vindicator or navy meg just on heavy nuets and cargo space, and a paladin would sit around laughing at a Napoc or nightmare - though the nightmare puts up the best fight of all of them short of perhaps a bhaalghorn.

(the lower ehp is what hurts them most in this kind of contest - so to afford them the extra defense means to afford them a place above the competitors)

the golem tries to do the same as those three, but loses out to the weapon system a bit too much - torpedoes in particular need better range and application in order to work as well with energy warfare doctrines the others can use. (ever seen an SNI try to tank without capacitor? i mean they can but it's not nice to look at)

i'm probably overlooking something, as this is a quick 5 minute analysis of what most of these hulls compete with, but it's the general view of it.