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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Edam Neadenil
Bax Corporation
#4301 - 2013-09-29 07:48:25 UTC
Lair Osen wrote:


However, the MJD is Very useful in PvE, especially since, with the PG buffs, its a lot easier to fit long range weapons, and many PvEers will be perfectly happy and able to sit still at 100km with double tank and more range for only a minute. Especially since the MJD means that if some scram rats get under its guns It can just MJD away when the rest of the minute is up.


Minor point.

Hisec mission rats never actually scram only disrupt so in hisec PvE at least MJDs will always work.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4302 - 2013-09-29 09:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
BASTION MODE: Auto-Overheat, Cooling (read on...)

The first thing that needs to be addressed is slots. We have 19-20 (typically 20) slots on Faction ships, but only 19 on Marauders. And the additional high slot is more or less useless. What I propose:

Paladin: 7H/5M/8L ... Golem: 7H/7M/6L ... Kronos: 7H/5M/8L ... Vargur: 7H/6M/7L

Next up, roll bonuses. With Rubicon the tractor beam bonus is now effectively useless, so instead replace it with a 100% range of stasis webifiers. This turns stasis webs into more of a mid-range option for Marauders.

Last but not least, Bastion. If the drones are getting nerfed then the loss of DPS needs to be offset with some different Marauder bonuses. And let's be honest: who's going to train to Marauder-V with the current bonuses?

Keep the T2 resists, the ship stats, EM immunity and the 100% shield booster and armor repair for Bastion-only mode. But instead of dropping to a dead stop, on activation it automatically overloads all slots and absorbs all heat for the duration. The animations already have the ships opening up, so what a perfect way to explain the temporary cooling effect.

With respect to the Marauder skills, each level enables +30 seconds of Bastion mode (150 seconds max), with a fixed 5-minute cool down to prevent abuse. The overload and 100% shield booster/armor repair bonus might be a tad much, so this may need to default back to the previous +37.5%.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4303 - 2013-09-29 09:51:52 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
BASTION MODE: Auto-Overheat, Cooling (read on...)

The first thing that needs to be addressed is slots. We have 19-20 (typically 20) slots on Faction ships, but only 19 on Marauders. And the additional high slot is more or less useless. What I propose:

Paladin: 7H/5M/8L ... Golem: 7H/7M/6L ... Kronos: 7H/5M/8L ... Vargur: 7H/6M/7L

Next up, roll bonuses. With Rubicon the tractor beam bonus is now effectively useless, so instead replace it with a 100% range of stasis webifiers. This turns stasis webs into more of a mid-range option for Marauders.

Last but not least, Bastion. If the drones are getting nerfed then the loss of DPS needs to be offset with some different Marauder bonuses. And let's be honest: who's going to train to Marauder-V with the current bonuses?

Keep the T2 resists, the ship stats, EM immunity and the 100% shield booster and armor repair for Bastion-only mode. But instead of dropping to a dead stop, on activation it automatically overloads all slots and absorbs all heat for the duration. The animations already have the ships opening up, so what a perfect way to explain the temporary cooling effect.

With respect to the Marauder skills, each level enables +30 seconds of Bastion mode (150 seconds max), with a fixed 5-minute cool down to prevent abuse. The overload and 100% shield booster/armor repair bonus might be a tad much, so this may need to default back to the previous +37.5%.


Problem here is the kronos is now another flavour of the vindi.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#4304 - 2013-09-29 10:07:47 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
BASTION MODE: Auto-Overheat, Cooling (read on...)

The first thing that needs to be addressed is slots. We have 19-20 (typically 20) slots on Faction ships, but only 19 on Marauders. And the additional high slot is more or less useless. What I propose:

Paladin: 7H/5M/8L ... Golem: 7H/7M/6L ... Kronos: 7H/5M/8L ... Vargur: 7H/6M/7L

Next up, roll bonuses. With Rubicon the tractor beam bonus is now effectively useless, so instead replace it with a 100% range of stasis webifiers. This turns stasis webs into more of a mid-range option for Marauders.

Last but not least, Bastion. If the drones are getting nerfed then the loss of DPS needs to be offset with some different Marauder bonuses. And let's be honest: who's going to train to Marauder-V with the current bonuses?

Keep the T2 resists, the ship stats, EM immunity and the 100% shield booster and armor repair for Bastion-only mode. But instead of dropping to a dead stop, on activation it automatically overloads all slots and absorbs all heat for the duration. The animations already have the ships opening up, so what a perfect way to explain the temporary cooling effect.

With respect to the Marauder skills, each level enables +30 seconds of Bastion mode (150 seconds max), with a fixed 5-minute cool down to prevent abuse. The overload and 100% shield booster/armor repair bonus might be a tad much, so this may need to default back to the previous +37.5%.

Yeah I agree and already posted an ol idea awhile back (192ish?) and was told it was mentioned before. IMHO if you are made stationary a dmg bonus is a must, and getting from ol is somewhat mild b/c it doesn't actually increase the burst dps the hulls are already capable of, just the sustained dps. I think it would be nice.

Concerning the slot layout, I would like the additional high for utility, but esp thinking of the vargur, the lost rep bonus, and the TE nerf, additional lows make sense. Armor tank +gyros in lows, TCs + prop + cap in mids, and it may even free up a rig spot due to stacking penalties.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4305 - 2013-09-29 10:30:17 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Yeah I agree and already posted an ol idea awhile back (192ish?) and was told it was mentioned before. IMHO if you are made stationary a dmg bonus is a must, and getting from ol is somewhat mild b/c it doesn't actually increase the burst dps the hulls are already capable of, just the sustained dps. I think it would be nice.

Concerning the slot layout, I would like the additional high for utility, but esp thinking of the vargur, the lost rep bonus, and the TE nerf, additional lows make sense. Armor tank +gyros in lows, TCs + prop + cap in mids, and it may even free up a rig spot due to stacking penalties.


Ah, my bad (this thread is getting a tad long in the tooth...) I think the cooling aspect is a novel idea, and it pretty much resolves the issue of remaining a stationary object. The extra high slot isn't needed with the 'salvager' module that will make an appearance in Rubicon, since the Bastion module will simply replace the slot a tractor beam previously took up. Two utility slots is still plenty on this class. The extra medium and low slots at least allow for better setups considering how the specs are all less than the faction equivalents.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

zbaaca
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#4306 - 2013-09-29 10:58:58 UTC  |  Edited by: zbaaca
Desert Ice78 wrote:

What if the web velocity bonus was instead a web range bonus, the purpose of which was to stop the enemy from getting to you before you mjd away? Would that make better sense?

Desert Ice78 wrote:

Not really.. I mean, webs can be fairly useful in certain situations, but in the case of the Golem, it's just a bunch of crap we can't fit.


well if it was range web bonus like reckons it would more useful then TP mathematically but then we don't need that tp one

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
BASTION MODE: Auto-Overheat, Cooling
Next up, roll bonuses. With Rubicon the tractor beam bonus is now effectively useless, so instead replace it with a 100% range of stasis webifiers. This turns stasis webs into more of a mid-range option for Marauders.

100% only gives u 30 km on true sanshas it very good for incursions and on turrets ships but but its not enough for golem

btw marauders have less slots then their t1 variants . WTF ?

Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4307 - 2013-09-29 11:12:44 UTC
Only one thing is for certain: You're several hundred DPS, half the ISK and 6+ months of trained SP saved by sticking with the Navy equivalents.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

zbaaca
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#4308 - 2013-09-29 11:25:47 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Only one thing is for certain: You're several hundred DPS, half the ISK and 6+ months of trained SP saved by sticking with the Navy equivalents.

indeed golem with 2x t2 rigors and domi TP and CNR with 2x t2 rigors and t2 flare (without tp) vs dramiel have difference about 20-30 dps. and versus crusers unless they moving 400+ m\s raven have same application (without tp).

Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4309 - 2013-09-29 11:28:43 UTC
zbaaca wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Only one thing is for certain: You're several hundred DPS, half the ISK and 6+ months of trained SP saved by sticking with the Navy equivalents.

indeed golem with 2x t2 rigors and domi TP and CNR with 2x t2 rigors and t2 flare (without tp) vs dramiel have difference about 20-30 dps. and versus crusers unless they moving 400+ m\s raven have same application (without tp).


Don't forget the drone nerf (that's about 100 dps or so right there). And the shields, armor and structure are several thousand points more on the Navy versions. Plus the colors don't suck for the Raven.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Senshi Teichou
Free Space Organization
#4310 - 2013-09-29 12:02:26 UTC
the golem is the only marauder with only 8 effective weapons and it also gains the least from the bastion weapon bonuses.

cruise missiles dont need range and torpedos still have to less range to be useful.

give it missile sig. / explosion vel. bonuses instead.


also: why does every marauder get a web bonus? with only 10km range there is not much you can do with it.

i agree that marauders have to less slots (med/low)


with the recent buff to shield and armor reps lvl4s got ridiculously easy;
so the whole bastion thing will not be that great in pve (dmg application and ewar resist are still nice though)
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4311 - 2013-09-29 12:11:54 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
BASTION MODE: Auto-Overheat, Cooling (read on...)

The first thing that needs to be addressed is slots. We have 19-20 (typically 20) slots on Faction ships, but only 19 on Marauders. And the additional high slot is more or less useless. What I propose:

Paladin: 7H/5M/8L ... Golem: 7H/7M/6L ... Kronos: 7H/5M/8L ... Vargur: 7H/6M/7L

Next up, roll bonuses. With Rubicon the tractor beam bonus is now effectively useless, so instead replace it with a 100% range of stasis webifiers. This turns stasis webs into more of a mid-range option for Marauders.

Last but not least, Bastion. If the drones are getting nerfed then the loss of DPS needs to be offset with some different Marauder bonuses. And let's be honest: who's going to train to Marauder-V with the current bonuses?

Keep the T2 resists, the ship stats, EM immunity and the 100% shield booster and armor repair for Bastion-only mode. But instead of dropping to a dead stop, on activation it automatically overloads all slots and absorbs all heat for the duration. The animations already have the ships opening up, so what a perfect way to explain the temporary cooling effect.

With respect to the Marauder skills, each level enables +30 seconds of Bastion mode (150 seconds max), with a fixed 5-minute cool down to prevent abuse. The overload and 100% shield booster/armor repair bonus might be a tad much, so this may need to default back to the previous +37.5%.


Why in the hell would I want 6 low slots on my Golem????
Give me 8 mids and you can do whatever you want with that extra low slot... All that matters is that 8th mid.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#4312 - 2013-09-29 13:05:29 UTC
Senshi Teichou wrote:



also: why does every marauder get a web bonus? with only 10km range there is not much you can do with it.



i dont like the web bonus on every marauder either but when you think about overheated, gang-bonused faction webs...
it gets interesting there, even in bastion. when you can use marauders for pvp, costs shouldnt be a big issue.
zbaaca
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#4313 - 2013-09-29 14:09:14 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

i dont like the web bonus on every marauder either but when you think about overheated, gang-bonused faction webs...
it gets interesting there, even in bastion. when you can use marauders for pvp, costs shouldnt be a big issue.

25km true sanshas . for pvp is good enough for pve useless. i assume u know the reasons

Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

NextDarkKnight
Event Horizon Expeditionaries
Pandemic Horde
#4314 - 2013-09-29 14:11:05 UTC
Zazz Dimaloun wrote:
Why a web bonus for the Golem????????? am I the only one who doesn't understand this change??



It's so the Golem can sling shot it's friends out of danger and sacrifice himself .. I started training for the marauders right before these proposed changes and 20 days from level 5.. Excuse me while I go change my skills to something else that isn't suppose to be a death trap.

Anyway Don't forget my suggestions

  • Return the Drone Bay
  • MWJ can pick jump range by deactivating early (Possible for ranged jump)
  • Allow for bonus to utility drones [400% to Target Painting, Webbing]
  • Allow to carry scramble drones Twisted (Had to add a little Pirate)
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4315 - 2013-09-29 14:12:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Joe Risalo wrote:
Why in the hell would I want 6 low slots on my Golem????
Give me 8 mids and you can do whatever you want with that extra low slot... All that matters is that 8th mid.

Is that a serious question? Damage control, power diagnostic and 4x ballistic controls for starters... Or 2x 1600mm armor plates, a damage control and 3x ballistic controls if you wanted to armor tank it... Or 2x overdrives or nanofibers for the dismal speed... Or a any of the above with a signal amplifier. The list goes on.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4316 - 2013-09-29 14:43:18 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Why in the hell would I want 6 low slots on my Golem????
Give me 8 mids and you can do whatever you want with that extra low slot... All that matters is that 8th mid.

Is that a serious question? Damage control, power diagnostic and 4x ballistic controls for starters... Or 2x 1600mm armor plates, a damage control and 3x ballistic controls if you wanted to armor tank it... Or 2x overdrives or nanofibers for the dismal speed... Or a any of the above with a signal amplifier. The list goes on.


yeah.... nooo....

8 mids, 5 lows
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#4317 - 2013-09-29 14:52:29 UTC
So from all the posts here (especially from the goons) it appears that the 2nd set of changes are permanent.

Thanks for listening CCP to over 200 pages of people mostly screaming about another ship class wrecked.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4318 - 2013-09-29 14:58:26 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So from all the posts here (especially from the goons) it appears that the 2nd set of changes are permanent.

Thanks for listening CCP to over 200 pages of people mostly screaming about another ship class wrecked.


it's not entirely wrecked.
It'll perform lvl 4's a bit better while in bastion,
However, there's less niche situations that bastion could perform, and the hull itself is worthless without bastion.


I still say :
Leave the hulls as they are on live with increase sensor strength.
Remove the 8th high and apply it as a tank slot, since 4 utility highs is way too much in pvp.

Then, return the resist bonus back to bastion mode.

If the resists plus 100%, plus 37.5% is too much, then change the rep bonus of bastion to cover the difference of 100%, so 62.5%..


Another nice change would be that the 37.5% buff to base hull also effects incoming logistic reps/boosts.
This would counter the possitive effects of t2 resists, but do so in a way that helps all 4 ships equally
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4319 - 2013-09-29 15:57:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So from all the posts here (especially from the goons) it appears that the 2nd set of changes are permanent.
Thanks for listening CCP to over 200 pages of people mostly screaming about another ship class wrecked.

Hope for our heroes seems slim...

Joe Risalo wrote:
it's not entirely wrecked.
It'll perform lvl 4's a bit better while in bastion,
However, there's less niche situations that bastion could perform, and the hull itself is worthless without bastion.

Anything the Golem can do, my Navy Raven can do better...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4320 - 2013-09-29 16:09:07 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Joe Risalo wrote:
it's not entirely wrecked.
It'll perform lvl 4's a bit better while in bastion,
However, there's less niche situations that bastion could perform, and the hull itself is worthless without bastion.

Anything the Golem can do, my Navy Raven can do better...


Well, I agree, and disagree at the same time.

Golem has more damage application with TP bonus...
Golem can also tank more, but the sig radius kinda nullifies this a bit.

However, I'm hoping that bastion will correct the tanking capability.

Now, the RNI can output more dps, but less effectively.
That said, it's expected that the RNI should have more dps than the Golem. I think it's actually supposed to be this way.


As far as missioning though, I always preferred the SNI, as it had 8 mids, allowing for more tank than a RNI, and still easily fit TPs to have more effective dps than RNI with less to no give on tanking and mobility.

The SNI is actually the subject I use to say that the Golem needs that 8th mid..
The SNI itself should get a bit of a change to make it focus on something else.