These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP, to Bring Balance, Nerf AC's (or Remove Blasters).

Author
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#201 - 2011-11-14 06:47:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Roosterton wrote:

I already pointed out that I made a mistake, and that Scorch is only 1000 DPS rather than 1172, but rather than calling me out on that, you decided to wrongly call me out on something which I made extremely clear - that the ammo being used is IN MF - proving that you have no idea what you're talking about.


In which case your claim to 30km+ optimal was bogus. Back-peddal harder "bro." You made a mistake and I called you on it. At this point I would encourage you to dispense with all this butt-hurt and own the fact you goofed. Instead you're trying desperately to move goal-posts and save face. It's really amusing to respond to, but I have to feel bad for you at this point.

Roosterton wrote:

Called me out on... what? Stating a fact? Okay then...


1200 "base dps" at "30km+" optimal on the geddon fit you listed is certainly not a "fact."
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#202 - 2011-11-14 07:08:39 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkAegix
Roosterton wrote:

First off, the Harby with focused medium pulses can easily pull 620 DPS with IN multifrequency, without heat. That same Harby has the powergrid to fit a medium neut. I have no idea where you are getting your figures from, but here, lemme give you a screenshot:

[Link which 'broke this post's BBcode']

Second, an armor Hurricane cannot fit 425's unless you have AWU 5 and drop a medium neut for a small. Additionally, this fit doesn't have the powergrid to field a cap booster, whereas a Harb can fit a cap booster, seven guns, and a medium neut with no issue. Additionally, this 425 fit has 629 DPS. A whole nine more than the Harby. Hmm, 9 more DPS on a Hurricane, or 6k more EHP, bigger optimal, and more resistance to cap warfare on a Harby... Let me think... Roll

Honestly, go back to EFT before you pull a bunch of numbers out of your ass.

Hammerheads? EFT Warrior spotted. Enjoy being killed by 2 Rifters or 1 kiting frigate!

You like EFT-Warrior fits? Then how about I give the Cane a Hammerhead and 4 Hobgoblins? 660dps.
Hmm... 40 more DPS and decent anti-frig capabilities, or 6k more EHP? Wait. You're over CPU. Better give a kind greeting to a meta DCU and small neut! Oops! Only 4k more EHP! Oops! If the fight lasts 100 seconds your extra EHP is forgotten! Oops! You're dealing EM and thermal damage to an armour tank! Oops! The Cane can use explosive ammunition!

Oh dear, your damage types mean that the Cane gets 84k EHP.
Oh dear, when a Cane uses Fusion your EHP drops to 68k.
That isn't pleasant. That isn't pleasant at all.

OVER CPU.
FAIL.
OH GOD, THE FAIL.
SWEET BABY JESUS, THE FAIL.
Sure, it has enough powergrid to fit the med neut, but does it have enough CPU? NOPE. Even with a meta damage control!
You say that a Cane can't fit 425mms AND a med neut without AWU V? WRONG AGAIN. YOU'RE WRONG SO MUCH. DO YOU EVER GET TIRED OF BEING WRONG?
Don't have AWU V? Either replace a single AC with 220mm Vulcan, or fit a small neut instead.
NOT ALL 220MM VULCANS AND SMALL NEUTS.

It seems you're mentally deficient AS WELL AS hypocritical. You say that my fit won't work without AWU V? YOUR FIT WON'T WORK AT ALL V. OVER CPU.

Also, bigger resistance to cap warfare?
ANOTHER FAIL.
In case you haven't realised, once within neut range the Hurricane only NEEDS cap for tackle and DCU. It'd take a Curse to neut it. Even then, the Cane will still be firing its guns.
You know what a Curse would do to a Harby? Say goodbye to your guns! Enjoy only firing every cycle of the cap booster AND 10 second reload!
FURTHERMORE, the Cane can still fit a Small Capacitor Booster! Good enough to run a web, disruptor and DCU? YES. Hell, even the a med and small neut on top of that!
WHY. DO. YOU. FAIL. SO. HARD?

Furthermore, a warp scrambler? Well then, say goodbye to the range advantage of Scorch! Also, what are you going to catch? A battleship? Good luck killing a battleship!

Harby vs frigate? Frigate escapes! Alternatively, frigate KITES YOU. AND YOU DIE. SLOWLY AND PAINFULLY.
Harby vs cruiser? Cruiser escapes!
Harby vs Myrm? MYRM EPIC SOLO REP! Unbreakable tank with you dealing EM/therm!
Harby vs HML Drake? Kiting! Dead, to a Drake!
Harby vs HAM Drake? It's a close one! Both have very similar damage-modified EHP! You can count this one as a victory, if you want!
Harby vs Armour Cane? It's a close-range brawl! But wait, Cane has a much higher damage-modified EHP, as well as ~20% better tracking, so more NON-EFT-WARRIOR-DPS. Not that it matters, because Cane has more DPS anyway! Cane wins!
Harby vs Nano Cane? Kiting, so much kiting! But, maybe, the Harby will deal enough damage! Not that it matters! CANE IS NOT TACKLED. It's a draw!
Harby vs battleship? Harby escapes! Wait. Battleships are faster, and will be able to lock the Harby before it aligns. Harby dies.




Thank you, and have a good day.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#203 - 2011-11-14 08:47:41 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Roosterton wrote:

First off, the Harby with focused medium pulses can easily pull 620 DPS with IN multifrequency, without heat. That same Harby has the powergrid to fit a medium neut. I have no idea where you are getting your figures from, but here, lemme give you a screenshot:

[Link which 'broke this post's BBcode']

Second, an armor Hurricane cannot fit 425's unless you have AWU 5 and drop a medium neut for a small. Additionally, this fit doesn't have the powergrid to field a cap booster, whereas a Harb can fit a cap booster, seven guns, and a medium neut with no issue. Additionally, this 425 fit has 629 DPS. A whole nine more than the Harby. Hmm, 9 more DPS on a Hurricane, or 6k more EHP, bigger optimal, and more resistance to cap warfare on a Harby... Let me think... Roll

Honestly, go back to EFT before you pull a bunch of numbers out of your ass.

Hammerheads? EFT Warrior spotted. Enjoy being killed by 2 Rifters or 1 kiting frigate!

You like EFT-Warrior fits? Then how about I give the Cane a Hammerhead and 4 Hobgoblins? 660dps.
Hmm... 40 more DPS and decent anti-frig capabilities, or 6k more EHP? Wait. You're over CPU. Better give a kind greeting to a meta DCU and small neut! Oops! Only 4k more EHP! Oops! If the fight lasts 100 seconds your extra EHP is forgotten! Oops! You're dealing EM and thermal damage to an armour tank! Oops! The Cane can use explosive ammunition!

Oh dear, your damage types mean that the Cane gets 84k EHP.
Oh dear, when a Cane uses Fusion your EHP drops to 68k.
That isn't pleasant. That isn't pleasant at all.

OVER CPU.
FAIL.
OH GOD, THE FAIL.
SWEET BABY JESUS, THE FAIL.
Sure, it has enough powergrid to fit the med neut, but does it have enough CPU? NOPE. Even with a meta damage control!
You say that a Cane can't fit 425mms AND a med neut without AWU V? WRONG AGAIN. YOU'RE WRONG SO MUCH. DO YOU EVER GET TIRED OF BEING WRONG?
Don't have AWU V? Either replace a single AC with 220mm Vulcan, or fit a small neut instead.
NOT ALL 220MM VULCANS AND SMALL NEUTS.

It seems you're mentally deficient AS WELL AS hypocritical. You say that my fit won't work without AWU V? YOUR FIT WON'T WORK AT ALL V. OVER CPU.

Also, bigger resistance to cap warfare?
ANOTHER FAIL.
In case you haven't realised, once within neut range the Hurricane only NEEDS cap for tackle and DCU. It'd take a Curse to neut it. Even then, the Cane will still be firing its guns.
You know what a Curse would do to a Harby? Say goodbye to your guns! Enjoy only firing every cycle of the cap booster AND 10 second reload!
FURTHERMORE, the Cane can still fit a Small Capacitor Booster! Good enough to run a web, disruptor and DCU? YES. Hell, even the a med and small neut on top of that!
WHY. DO. YOU. FAIL. SO. HARD?

Furthermore, a warp scrambler? Well then, say goodbye to the range advantage of Scorch! Also, what are you going to catch? A battleship? Good luck killing a battleship!

Harby vs frigate? Frigate escapes! Alternatively, frigate KITES YOU. AND YOU DIE. SLOWLY AND PAINFULLY.
Harby vs cruiser? Cruiser escapes!
Harby vs Myrm? MYRM EPIC SOLO REP! Unbreakable tank with you dealing EM/therm!
Harby vs HML Drake? Kiting! Dead, to a Drake!
Harby vs HAM Drake? It's a close one! Both have very similar damage-modified EHP! You can count this one as a victory, if you want!
Harby vs Armour Cane? It's a close-range brawl! But wait, Cane has a much higher damage-modified EHP, as well as ~20% better tracking, so more NON-EFT-WARRIOR-DPS. Not that it matters, because Cane has more DPS anyway! Cane wins!
Harby vs Nano Cane? Kiting, so much kiting! But, maybe, the Harby will deal enough damage! Not that it matters! CANE IS NOT TACKLED. It's a draw!
Harby vs battleship? Harby escapes! Wait. Battleships are faster, and will be able to lock the Harby before it aligns. Harby dies.




Thank you, and have a good day.
I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the SCREAMING.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#204 - 2011-11-14 09:03:31 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the SCREAMING.

Lol
Do I need to scream louder?
LIKE THIS!!?
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#205 - 2011-11-14 12:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruah Piskonit
DarkAegix wrote:

Rant with some good points


I would post it again without all the screaming btw.

Especially the point about theoretical DPS at massive ranges that ignores tracking and 1.5 damage types to start with.

i can say that at least Amarr have some residual strengths that don't make ACs look too imba - but - I do feel sorry for blasters since they are supposed to be better then ACs, and they just are not.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#206 - 2011-11-14 12:43:23 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
I'll just leave these here.... Poor Mach pilot's TwistedTwistedTwisted Yep. Gallente suck alright.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14586578

47% damage done.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14586171

30%


Good greece, you need a lot of friends to take down a single Mach when one on one he would just eat you alive, that's what you seem not able to understand.

Has for the second km I'd be rather embarrassed to figure an Harbringer can do same dps than my Megathron, nice stuff.

I see now what you just did !! -Can't wait for next month top 20 to see all those brutix, myrmidon, dominix, megathrons, hyperions, deimost (Mr sry).

Ho god, I can't wait! -My toon's feminine parts are already excited Roll


Aww aren't you cute. More like a moron but hey go ahead and fly that mach. And also It was a FLEET fight. Jesus. Many people were jammed. I suggest you head out to syndicate. Id love to see you in person. What a cry baby *****. People see their winmatar get smacked around and they cry and cry. Personally I don't care about the blaster changes that much. Ill fly gallente regardless. But hey maybe I m just stubborn.


Sry sindicate if for starters, I only fight against big fish and real pvp guys, not eft warriors high sec pussies or 1 vs 10. Lol
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#207 - 2011-11-14 12:47:28 UTC
Quote:
Second, an armor Hurricane cannot fit 425's unless you have AWU 5 and drop a medium neut for a small. Additionally, this fit doesn't have the powergrid to field a cap booster, whereas a Harb can fit a cap booster, seven guns, and a medium neut with no issue. Additionally, this 425 fit has 629 DPS. A whole nine more than the Harby. Hmm, 9 more DPS on a Hurricane, or 6k more EHP, bigger optimal, and more resistance to cap warfare on a Harby... Let me think... Roll


Sry if you can't fit either armor cane or shield cane without AWU5 you're doing it wrong, Cane has more CPU than it needs in both cases for the best fits on both shield/armor and this with ONLY AWU4
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#208 - 2011-11-14 13:23:05 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Roosterton wrote:

First off, the Harby with focused medium pulses can easily pull 620 DPS with IN multifrequency, without heat. That same Harby has the powergrid to fit a medium neut. I have no idea where you are getting your figures from, but here, lemme give you a screenshot:

[Link which 'broke this post's BBcode']

Second, an armor Hurricane cannot fit 425's unless you have AWU 5 and drop a medium neut for a small. Additionally, this fit doesn't have the powergrid to field a cap booster, whereas a Harb can fit a cap booster, seven guns, and a medium neut with no issue. Additionally, this 425 fit has 629 DPS. A whole nine more than the Harby. Hmm, 9 more DPS on a Hurricane, or 6k more EHP, bigger optimal, and more resistance to cap warfare on a Harby... Let me think... Roll

Honestly, go back to EFT before you pull a bunch of numbers out of your ass.

Hammerheads? EFT Warrior spotted. Enjoy being killed by 2 Rifters or 1 kiting frigate!

You like EFT-Warrior fits? Then how about I give the Cane a Hammerhead and 4 Hobgoblins? 660dps.
Hmm... 40 more DPS and decent anti-frig capabilities, or 6k more EHP? Wait. You're over CPU. Better give a kind greeting to a meta DCU and small neut! Oops! Only 4k more EHP! Oops! If the fight lasts 100 seconds your extra EHP is forgotten! Oops! You're dealing EM and thermal damage to an armour tank! Oops! The Cane can use explosive ammunition!

Oh dear, your damage types mean that the Cane gets 84k EHP.
Oh dear, when a Cane uses Fusion your EHP drops to 68k.
That isn't pleasant. That isn't pleasant at all.

OVER CPU.
FAIL.
OH GOD, THE FAIL.
SWEET BABY JESUS, THE FAIL.
Sure, it has enough powergrid to fit the med neut, but does it have enough CPU? NOPE. Even with a meta damage control!
You say that a Cane can't fit 425mms AND a med neut without AWU V? WRONG AGAIN. YOU'RE WRONG SO MUCH. DO YOU EVER GET TIRED OF BEING WRONG?
Don't have AWU V? Either replace a single AC with 220mm Vulcan, or fit a small neut instead.
NOT ALL 220MM VULCANS AND SMALL NEUTS.

It seems you're mentally deficient AS WELL AS hypocritical. You say that my fit won't work without AWU V? YOUR FIT WON'T WORK AT ALL V. OVER CPU.

Also, bigger resistance to cap warfare?
ANOTHER FAIL.
In case you haven't realised, once within neut range the Hurricane only NEEDS cap for tackle and DCU. It'd take a Curse to neut it. Even then, the Cane will still be firing its guns.
You know what a Curse would do to a Harby? Say goodbye to your guns! Enjoy only firing every cycle of the cap booster AND 10 second reload!
FURTHERMORE, the Cane can still fit a Small Capacitor Booster! Good enough to run a web, disruptor and DCU? YES. Hell, even the a med and small neut on top of that!
WHY. DO. YOU. FAIL. SO. HARD?

Furthermore, a warp scrambler? Well then, say goodbye to the range advantage of Scorch! Also, what are you going to catch? A battleship? Good luck killing a battleship!

Harby vs frigate? Frigate escapes! Alternatively, frigate KITES YOU. AND YOU DIE. SLOWLY AND PAINFULLY.
Harby vs cruiser? Cruiser escapes!
Harby vs Myrm? MYRM EPIC SOLO REP! Unbreakable tank with you dealing EM/therm!
Harby vs HML Drake? Kiting! Dead, to a Drake!
Harby vs HAM Drake? It's a close one! Both have very similar damage-modified EHP! You can count this one as a victory, if you want!
Harby vs Armour Cane? It's a close-range brawl! But wait, Cane has a much higher damage-modified EHP, as well as ~20% better tracking, so more NON-EFT-WARRIOR-DPS. Not that it matters, because Cane has more DPS anyway! Cane wins!
Harby vs Nano Cane? Kiting, so much kiting! But, maybe, the Harby will deal enough damage! Not that it matters! CANE IS NOT TACKLED. It's a draw!
Harby vs battleship? Harby escapes! Wait. Battleships are faster, and will be able to lock the Harby before it aligns. Harby dies.




Thank you, and have a good day.



If it wasn't for all those FACTS! You'd almost think this post was filled with sarcastic-rage-joke. Does seem like semantics though.


-Notice how all characters that want MINMATAR NERFED are Amarr? (racist!)
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#209 - 2011-11-14 15:21:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:


In which case your claim to 30km+ optimal was bogus. Back-peddal harder "bro." You made a mistake and I called you on it. At this point I would encourage you to dispense with all this butt-hurt and own the fact you goofed. Instead you're trying desperately to move goal-posts and save face. It's really amusing to respond to, but I have to feel bad for you at this point.

Roosterton wrote:

Called me out on... what? Stating a fact? Okay then...


1200 "base dps" at "30km+" optimal on the geddon fit you listed is certainly not a "fact."


Stop being terrible. You made a post saying that 1172 DPS is not a reasonable figure with IN MF. Look below:

Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Roosterton wrote:

1172 DPS is attainable with IN MF. I said 1200 in my first post because I didn't have the numbers off the top of my head.


You said "base dps," which is a far-cry from "attainable," sir. I think you, on that high horse, should be able to see where i'm coming from then? Your language was deliberately misleading or simply off by an unacceptable margin that called for critique.


This is what you called me out on. You made a post, directly in response to a post of mine where I stated that you can do 1172 DPS, WITH IN MF,and you claimed that I was wrong. I made no mistake in the above quoted post. You are just incorrect.

The only mistake with my numbers, in every post I have made here, is the Geddon's 1172 DPS at 30km+, as it's infact 1000 DPS at 30km+ and 1172 at 15km. There is no other mistake. On the other hand, you made a sweeping generalization that my comparisons (plural) were "obviously skewed and didn't match up in EFT at all," implying that all the comparisons I posted were inaccurate.

So congrats, you have stated something which I seem to have noticed before you anyway - that one particular ammo type in one particular comparison is off. Is this enough to discredit the entire point of my post? Roll
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#210 - 2011-11-14 15:43:59 UTC
Dark Aegix wrote:
Stupiditiy


Apparently, every fight is now a 1v1, and apparently, if you don't have warriors you WILL be solo'ed by a frigate.

Fact is, between a medium neut, web, focused pulses, and hammerheads (They DO hit frigates when they're webbed, you know) I've never come across a frig which actually poses a serious problem.

You don't need a meta DCU to make the CPU fit. A centii C-type ANP (Costs ~7mil, last I checked) will get you nearly the same EHP while putting you well within the CPU bounds. Alternatively, you might be like me, who has a JC with a +3% CPU implant in. Either way, it's hardly worth making so many lines of screaming over.

Your original post implied fitting a rack of 425's, not multiple 425's and 220's.

I was actually going to include a line about what you can do with the 3% CPU issue, but that broke my post's BBCode, so I had to remove that line.

Short scrambler is a perfectly reasonable module to have on a Harby. Scorch remains useful as a tool to drive off kiters, or to quickly apply DPS in a small fleet fight.

Quote:
Harby vs frigate? Frigate escapes! Alternatively, frigate KITES YOU. AND YOU DIE. SLOWLY AND PAINFULLY.
Harby vs cruiser? Cruiser escapes!


Frigate doesn't escape when it's webbed and short scrammed and neuted. Cruiser doesn't escape when it's webbed and short scrammed and neuted.

Quote:
Harby vs Myrm? MYRM EPIC SOLO REP! Unbreakable tank with you dealing EM/therm!


Any half-decent Myrm would permatank a Hurricane, as well.

Quote:
Harby vs HML Drake? Kiting! Dead, to a Drake!


Not with you applying your full DPS at the Drake anyway. You know, with scorch. On the other hand, an Armor Hurricane is screwed, because he's only doing ~60% of his DPS with barrage, and it's exp/kin.

Quote:
Harby vs Armour Cane? It's a close-range brawl! But wait, Cane has a much higher damage-modified EHP, as well as ~20% better tracking, so more NON-EFT-WARRIOR-DPS. Not that it matters, because Cane has more DPS anyway! Cane wins!


You're assuming that the Armor Cane already has fusion loaded, and starts at 0km, so doesn't have to close the distance to apply its dps (while, mind you, the harb is doing full damage with scorch.) If this is the case, then yes, it will probably win. If not, then the Harb has a very good chance.

About the nanocane, again, assumptions. If the nanocane, at any time during the fight, ends up anywhere within 13km of the Harb, either at the beginning of the fight or because he's a bad pilot/the harb isn't a bad pilot, he is dead. Game over. No chance. Even if he doesn't end up that close, the Harb will, with 100% certainty, force him off the field with scorch if he isn't an idiot.

The only battleship faster than a Harb is a nanoTempest or nanoPhoon, which is likely to also slay an armor Cane. Or just about any BC. Why are we even comparing BC's to BS?
Cambarus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#211 - 2011-11-14 15:58:46 UTC
With regards to that rage rant about the harby vs cane, there are a few problems there that I will point out, without the screaming:

1)You can't assume that they will be fighting each other. Specific counter-fits aside, you have to look at the roles they fill, and look at how they shoot all sorts of ships. When making comparisons the only time I'd ever assume a 1v1 or specific ship vs specific ship is when explicitly trying to give all the advantages to one side (usually gallente) only to show how absurd it is when they STILL come out looking worse than the other guys.

If you're giving meta game advantages that are not always there to the minmatar ship, going on to argue that the minni ship is clearly better makes no sense.

2)Over CPU by 3% means nothing. If you can't afford a 3% implant you're not able to afford pvp in anything bigger than a frigate anyway. Think of the implant as part of the fit. If he needed a 5 or 6 %, then yes it'd be unreasonable given the sorts of ships we're discussing, but a 3% is fine. Nothing wrong, nothing to see here, move along.

3)That harb fit has a web. Odds are he's not getting kited by a drake.

4)Optimal range plays a huge factor in applying damage. Maybe not as much in a 1v1, but as numbers on both sides go up, simply having the harbs spread out would ruin the canes.

NOW, with that said, I will go ahead and say that the harb could use a slight buff. It doesn't need much, maybe an extra turret slot or something, but as far as tier II BCs go it is fairly obviously getting shafted by the other 3 races, who all have areas in which they excel (some more than others). However, this does not mean that amarr as a whole are underpowered.

As for what Ruah's been saying:
You've been implicitly taking a side since you got here. The important points that you've made so far, can be summed up as follows:
-Amarr are balanced with gallente
-Gallente are made obsolete by minmatar
-" You have a very fast, high utility ship and you give them a similar weapon system (with few drawbacks) - then you have an unbalanced situation." ( I wonder what that could be referring to... )
-"All I am arguing is that if projectiles are going to be balanced to pulse and hybrids - then the ships too need to be re-balanced accordingly"


Since no one was actually suggesting buffing ACs, that last quote implies that ACs are already, at the very least, on par with pulses before ships come into play (if not better), and that as a result minmatar ships need to be "re-balanced" (nerfed) to compensate for that.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#212 - 2011-11-14 17:05:51 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:

Rant with some good points


I would post it again without all the screaming btw.

Especially the point about theoretical DPS at massive ranges that ignores tracking and 1.5 damage types to start with.

i can say that at least Amarr have some residual strengths that don't make ACs look too imba - but - I do feel sorry for blasters since they are supposed to be better then ACs, and they just are not.


I'm not sure if you really meant to say that projectiles should be the worst weapons system in the game - but no, Blasters are not "supposed to be better than ACs". They're supposed to be balanced - which is to say that there's some reasonably common situation when you'd want to use blasters instead of pulse lasers or autocannons. Right now, that doesn't really happen because both of them are hands down better choices.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#213 - 2011-11-14 17:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Liang Nuren wrote:


I'm not sure if you really meant to say that projectiles should be the worst weapons system in the game - but no, Blasters are not "supposed to be better than ACs". They're supposed to be balanced - which is to say that there's some reasonably common situation when you'd want to use blasters instead of pulse lasers or autocannons. Right now, that doesn't really happen because both of them are hands down better choices.

-Liang


no it doesnt work that way, you fly ships not weapons->ships+fit should be balanced vs ships+fit, not weapons vs weapons
fe: good weapons on bad ship could be balanced vs bad weapons on good ship ,
put in hybrids+cald/gall and projectiles+matar and you can get balance
you wont get blance if you want to make projectiles as good as hybrids and keep matar ships better than the others -> all considered matar outclass hybrid ships

If matars want as good weapons as the other races they should have as "bad " hulls too

It should be balanced where you would want to bring a blaster ship to do something better than a ac ship could.
Same for the other weapons+hulls , and every role should be weighted too ,so no more blaster ship where it is 3-4% better than ac ship in situations which happens like neglectable less compared to everyday situations where blaster ships disadvantages are 20-30%.

Oh and the bonuses should be usefull so you dont want to fit an unbonused weapon just cause it is still better than the bonused ones, like ferox/maler fit ac.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2011-11-14 17:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Sebastian N Cain
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:

Rant with some good points


I would post it again without all the screaming btw.

Especially the point about theoretical DPS at massive ranges that ignores tracking and 1.5 damage types to start with.

i can say that at least Amarr have some residual strengths that don't make ACs look too imba - but - I do feel sorry for blasters since they are supposed to be better then ACs, and they just are not.


I'm not sure if you really meant to say that projectiles should be the worst weapons system in the game - but no, Blasters are not "supposed to be better than ACs". They're supposed to be balanced - which is to say that there's some reasonably common situation when you'd want to use blasters instead of pulse lasers or autocannons. Right now, that doesn't really happen because both of them are hands down better choices.

-Liang

Hardly a surprise.

If you think about the combat roles of the Gallente, and you would want to optimize anyone for this roles, how would you design him?

A cap-free weapon to work in a combat environment exclusively within the range of nos/neut.
The fastest and most agile ships to close in to be able to do your damage.
multiple damage types to make sure your hits count once you finally can begin applying damage.
And since you likely get shot at while you are getting in range, you might want some flexibility in your tank fitting options to adapt better to the expected situation and improve your survival chances.

for the sniping huge alpha, multiple damage types and agile ships because you canĀ“t get many shots off before someone is coming for you and you need to change position. And this is practically how sniping is defined: high damage, low rate of fire, a relatively fast and agile unit.

Who did I just describe? Not the Gallente, thats for sure.

Which does make me want to ask the devs: If you wanted the Gallente deploy the close-range and sniping tactics, how come another race ends up optimized and perfectly suited for it?

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#215 - 2011-11-14 18:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Roosterton wrote:

So congrats, you have stated something which I seem to have noticed before you anyway - that one particular ammo type in one particular comparison is off. Is this enough to discredit the entire point of my post? Roll


Ahaha, the back peddaling is complete. Why do I need to discredit your post? You're doing such a great job of that for me.

Roosterton wrote:

Armageddon: 1200 base DPS, can apply it fully to 30+km


I mean, if you noticed it before I did... one would think that you would edit the obviously incorrect statement.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#216 - 2011-11-14 19:03:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Roosterton wrote:

So congrats, you have stated something which I seem to have noticed before you anyway - that one particular ammo type in one particular comparison is off. Is this enough to discredit the entire point of my post? Roll


Ahaha, the back peddaling is complete. Why do I need to discredit your post? You're doing such a great job of that for me.

Roosterton wrote:

Armageddon: 1200 base DPS, can apply it fully to 30+km


I mean, if you noticed it before I did... one would think that you would edit the obviously incorrect statement.


So you admit, then, that your last 3 posts stating that IN MF can't do 1172 DPS is utter bullshit?

Very well, let's make a deal. My mistake was having the wrong crystals loaded in EFT. Your mistake was failing to read English. It's even.

And there was no point to me editing my OP after it's been used in so many quotes, anyway.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#217 - 2011-11-14 19:11:55 UTC
Roosterton wrote:

Very well, let's make a deal. My mistake was having the wrong crystals loaded in EFT. Your mistake was failing to read English. It's even.


If you loaded the wrong crystal, where did you get that optimal range from and why did you insist on using overheated dps figures to describe "base," dps? That isn't a typo or mis-reading a number, that's being deliberately misleading. Your mistake was sticking to your bullshit after it had been aired out for everyone to smell.

My "mistake," was continuing to beat you over the head with it until you captiulated. You should be thanking me for all my help.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2011-11-14 19:28:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Roosterton wrote:

Very well, let's make a deal. My mistake was having the wrong crystals loaded in EFT. Your mistake was failing to read English. It's even.


If you loaded the wrong crystal, where did you get that optimal range from and why did you insist on using overheated dps figures to describe "base," dps? That isn't a typo or mis-reading a number, that's being deliberately misleading. Your mistake was sticking to your bullshit after it had been aired out for everyone to smell.

My "mistake," was continuing to beat you over the head with it until you captiulated. You should be thanking me for all my help.


I still don't know where you're getting the idea that I was using overheated figures. 1172 DPS with IN MF is without heat, and 998 DPS with scorch is without heat. Stop failfitting your Armageddons?

I got the optimal range from the top of my head, which is why it's "30+," and not "45+." I like how you completely missed a mistake when it's to your argument's detriment to point it out. Blink

And no, you made a mistake when you claimed that 1172 DPS with IN MF is not reasonable. I don't know how to possibly explain this to you any more clearly, but you said that, and you know it. Stop trying to hide it. Yes, you also pointed out the scorch error, but then, so did I, quite a while back.

Let me post the quote for you again:

Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Roosterton wrote:

1172 DPS is attainable with IN MF. I said 1200 in my first post because I didn't have the numbers off the top of my head.



You said "base dps," which is a far-cry from "attainable," sir. I think you, on that high horse, should be able to see where i'm coming from then? Your language was deliberately misleading or simply off by an unacceptable margin that called for critique.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#219 - 2011-11-14 19:39:28 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

2)Over CPU by 3% means nothing. If you can't afford a 3% implant you're not able to afford pvp in anything bigger than a frigate anyway. Think of the implant as part of the fit. If he needed a 5 or 6 %, then yes it'd be unreasonable given the sorts of ships we're discussing, but a 3% is fine. Nothing wrong, nothing to see here, move along.


Yeah, its true.

Quote:

NOW, with that said, I will go ahead and say that the harb could use a slight buff. It doesn't need much, maybe an extra turret slot or something, but as far as tier II BCs go it is fairly obviously getting shafted by the other 3 races, who all have areas in which they excel (some more than others). However, this does not mean that amarr as a whole are underpowered.


Eeehhh, that's overboard I think. The problems with the Binger all relate to the fact that everyone is tending towards shield/kite tanking. In an odd way, the good damage projection and favorable damage types (against shield ships) is also one of the biggest strengths with the Binger. I'd be all in favor of a bit more fittings for the Binger - maybe enough to finish out that HPL rack on the 1600 plate Harby.

I don't think I'd be very much in favor of large buffs like increasing its base mobility or giving it another turret.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#220 - 2011-11-14 19:43:23 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:

no it doesnt work that way, you fly ships not weapons->ships+fit should be balanced vs ships+fit, not weapons vs weapons
fe: good weapons on bad ship could be balanced vs bad weapons on good ship ,


Were you trying to contradict me or did you just start your post with "No" for funsies? I'm really shocked its taken you so long to see that the real problem here is Hybrids being not as useful on Hybrid ships as the other weapon platforms on their respective platforms.

Shocking, really. I've only been preaching this for literally years. :(

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.