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CCP, to Bring Balance, Nerf AC's (or Remove Blasters).

Author
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#241 - 2011-11-15 01:56:10 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Roosterton wrote:

Oh the horror! It's grossly misleading! Rather than doing 1200 DPS to 30km, the Geddon does 1200 DPS to 15km and 1000 DPS to 45km! See this? This throws my entire post off! There's no way this guy is trustworthy now!!!


Yes, by your own admission you doubled the optimal of IN MF in your post. If giving a weapon system DOUBLE it's optimal in a comparison isn't grossly misleading, I don't know what is.

Considering your premise was to show objective balance, it certainly does call your credibility into quesiton.


I gave it IN MF double its optimal, but reduced scorch's optimal to 2/3rds of what it actually was. So yes, it makes me look stupid, but it doesn't make me biased, or else I would have stated scorch's optimal correctly.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#242 - 2011-11-15 01:56:59 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Heh, hilariously if he's being "misleading" then almost the entirety of the "nerf Minmatar" crowd are too. Also, I'm not taking a side until the hybrid boost settles in because best case premature nerfing would end up end up making the wrong nerf for the wrong reasons.

-Liang


Does this mean you'll be on our side in the Great Weapon Rebalance of 2013? LolBig smileShockedP
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#243 - 2011-11-15 02:02:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Roosterton wrote:
I gave it IN MF double its optimal, but reduced scorch's optimal to 2/3rds of what it actually was. So yes, it makes me look stupid, but it doesn't make me biased, or else I would have stated scorch's optimal correctly.


I don't see why the fact you didn't go full-retard and use scorch optimal makes you any more credible, but i'll accept stupid if you want to use that title instead. I had figured that somewhat-biased would be a bit easier to swallow. Suit yourself I guess.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#244 - 2011-11-15 02:04:38 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Heh, hilariously if he's being "misleading" then almost the entirety of the "nerf Minmatar" crowd are too. Also, I'm not taking a side until the hybrid boost settles in because best case premature nerfing would end up end up making the wrong nerf for the wrong reasons.

-Liang


Does this mean you'll be on our side in the Great Weapon Rebalance of 2013? LolBig smileShockedP


Every argument I've seen for nerfing projectiles since I've come back has revolved around hybrids being worse than projectiles. This is super shocking (/sarcasm). Really, those arguments are best framed against lasers because they show the problems far better (at least, for the arguments I've seen bandied about). So far, I'm just not seeing any compelling reasons to believe that projectiles are going to need a nerf after the hybrid boost hits.

I could be surprised though. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#245 - 2011-11-15 02:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Roosterton wrote:
I gave it IN MF double its optimal, but reduced scorch's optimal to 2/3rds of what it actually was. So yes, it makes me look stupid, but it doesn't make me biased, or else I would have stated scorch's optimal correctly.


I don't see why the fact you didn't go full-retard and use scorch optimal makes you any more credible, but i'll accept stupid if you want to use that title instead. I had figured that somewhat-biased would be a bit easier to swallow. Suit yourself I guess.


Had I used scorch optimal, it would make me look biased, as I gave Scorch IN MF's dps. On the other hand, this just makes me look like I didn't bother checking to see what I was doing.

In hindsight, it's a reasonable average. Rather than 1270 DPS with conflag at a really short range, or 1000 DPS with scorch at a really long range, I went with 1200 DPS at a somewhere-in-between range. P

Now, going back to a topic which isn't utterly pointless;

Quote:
Every argument I've seen for nerfing projectiles since I've come back has revolved around hybrids being worse than projectiles. This is super shocking (/sarcasm). Really, those arguments are best framed against lasers because they show the problems far better (at least, for the arguments I've seen bandied about). So far, I'm just not seeing any compelling reasons to believe that projectiles are going to need a nerf after the hybrid boost hits.


This is the truth. I've been on sisi quite a bit since they released the new hybrids there, and I have to say, they aren't really too terrible. Rails could still use slightly more DPS, and a few blaster boats could be individually tweaked, but it's in general a lot better than what it used to be.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#246 - 2011-11-15 02:19:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Roosterton wrote:

Had I used scorch optimal, it would make me look biased, as I gave Scorch IN MF's dps. On the other hand, this just makes me look like I didn't bother checking to see what I was doing.

In hindsight, it's a reasonable average. Rather than 1270 DPS with conflag at a really short range, or 1000 DPS with scorch at a really long range, I went with 1200 DPS at a somewhere-in-between range. P


Bah, can't argue with you when you're all reasonable and using happy emoitcons.

Roosterton wrote:

This is the truth. I've been on sisi quite a bit since they released the new hybrids there, and I have to say, they aren't really too terrible. Rails could still use slightly more DPS, and a few blaster boats could be individually tweaked, but it's in general a lot better than what it used to be.


I'd say rails in particular won't be cured without some kind of ammo tweaking and probably range reduction for more tracking and/or dps. The niche they reside in doesn't exist (150km+ sniping) and if it did, tachs would do the job better as they once did. That much is clear. Blasters seem to be a diffirent issue. They have more problems with the ships themselves. As far as what's on sisi right now, I think it's a bit deficient in both hybrid catergories.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#247 - 2011-11-15 02:22:52 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:

I'd say rails in particular won't be cured without some kind of ammo tweaking and probably range reduction for more tracking and/or dps. The niche they reside in doesn't exist (150km+ sniping). That much is clear. Blasters seem to be a diffirent issue. They have more problems with the ships themselves. As far as what's on sisi right now, I think it's a bit deficient in both hybrid catergories.


I'd really like to see 150-250km sniping come back to Eve. :(

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#248 - 2011-11-15 02:26:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Every argument I've seen for nerfing projectiles since I've come back has revolved around hybrids being worse than projectiles. This is super shocking (/sarcasm). Really, those arguments are best framed against lasers because they show the problems far better (at least, for the arguments I've seen bandied about). So far, I'm just not seeing any compelling reasons to believe that projectiles are going to need a nerf after the hybrid boost hits.

I could be surprised though. :)

-Liang


For me it's about power creep. Remember the Amarr buff in 2007? Of course you do. For others who weren't there though- Amarr had difficulty with hitting nano ships and their weapons also had difficulty with the high EM armor resists most ships could get. Pulses' tracking was buffed 25%, several armour modules were nerfed, and ships' EM resistance was nerfed across the board.

What happend then? Nano was nerfed in 2008. Crow's no longer went 14km/s. Vaga's were no longer 7km/s. But pulses kept their tracking buff. And Amarr -whose sweet spot is at medium range, crept a little in. Eve was Amarr-Online for a while.

Minmatar, who weren't as good as the Gallente in short range or the Amarr in medium - had to thread the needle. But the tracking enhancer allowed them to expand their firepower. They neither have to be as close to the Amarr or fight to keep the right range from the Gallente to do their job. And now it's Winmatar.

And now we move to the Gallente. Short range is their forte, right? They do deserve a buff - don't get me wrong. But the final effect will be to move their range outward.... All this power creep means is that the weapon systems become bland copies of themselves by default.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#249 - 2011-11-15 02:28:26 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


I'd really like to see 150-250km sniping come back to Eve. :(

-Liang


They'd have to somehow eliminate on-grid warps/probing without cramping the style of the probe jockeys (w-space pilots and 'splorers) in general. Unfortunately I don't see that happening. Not sure if i'm all that nostalgic for it myself, but anything that spices up fleet combat these days would be welcome.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#250 - 2011-11-15 02:29:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
But the tracking enhancer allowed them to expand their firepower. They neither have to be as close to the Amarr or fight to keep the right range from the Gallente to do their job.


You are crazy if you think Minmatar outrange Amarr in a practical sense. Even in an EFT sense, a pulse Zealot firing Scorch with 2 TCs/TEs outranges a Vagabond with 2x TEs firing Barrage.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#251 - 2011-11-15 02:36:08 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
But the tracking enhancer allowed them to expand their firepower. They neither have to be as close to the Amarr or fight to keep the right range from the Gallente to do their job.


You are crazy if you think Minmatar outrange Amarr in a practical sense.


Are we going to have a duel from 50 clicks comparison? My point has consistently been that when I can be on top of Amarr in seconds and away just as fast - I shouldn't be hitting out that far in the first place.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#252 - 2011-11-15 02:40:03 UTC
By the way. If you look @ where blasters do work the best (frigates). Frigate weapon systems are pretty homogeneous. Frigates hit-pints relative to damage output is skewed. Most ships have the same issues with regards to velocity and mobility that scales to cruisers - battle-cruisers. When using after-burners this becomes a serious issue for Gallente frigates, without increased damage projection. Which is why you use small rail-guns (which have tracking issues).

Anyway, most of what Zarnak wulf said is correct. High mobility, damage projection and applied damage is something that has always been supreme in this game and CCP has tried and have NERFED it many times.
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#253 - 2011-11-15 02:47:12 UTC
ITT we also learn that Neutron Blasters can get 1314dps at 39km. Void gets the 1314dps, and Iron gives you 14.4+12.5km range.

Roosterton wrote:

1. Apparently, every fight is now a 1v1, and apparently, if you don't have warriors you WILL be solo'ed by a frigate.
2. Fact is, between a medium neut, web, focused pulses, and hammerheads (They DO hit frigates when they're webbed, you know)

1. So, the Harby fails in the 1v1 area, but let's see fleets!
Drake fleets? Everywhere!
Hurricane fleets? Second place to the Drake!
Myrm fleets? Nope, it's better for solo
Harby fleets? Hmm... Ranked #19 on EVE-kill. Drake is #1. Cane is #2. Harby mustn't be that popular for fleets with its slow speed. Maybe it can join a battleship fleet?

2. Med neuts, webs, pulses and hammerheads won't help you against a fast frigate orbiting you at 20km range.

Quote:
you might be like me, who has a JC with a +3% CPU implant in. Either way, it's hardly worth making so many lines of screaming over.

Hmmm.... A 3% CPU implant costs 18mil. Why, let's spend 18mil on the Cane!
1% projectile damage: 1.7mil
1% faster ROF: 1.2mil
3% armour: 10.5mil
Monocle fund: 4.6mil

Suddenly, my wonderful Cane has 671dps and a 71k ehp tank! Marvellous!

Quote:
Your original post implied fitting a rack of 425's, not multiple 425's and 220's.

Yes, because it fits with 425s. Lol

Quote:
1. Frigate doesn't escape when it's webbed and short scrammed and neuted. Cruiser doesn't escape when it's webbed and short scrammed and neuted.
2. Any half-decent Myrm would permatank a Hurricane, as well.

1. Good luck even getting in range to scramble, neut and web it!
How are you going to catch a frigate in a Harby? 896m/s MWD speed. 11.2s align time. 7.9s lock time.
A Cane, on the other hand, has 1025m/s MWD speed, 10.5s align and 4.7s lock time with a sebo. It doesn't need a cap booster, so I fit my armour Canes with a sebo. The cookie 200mm Rifter ABs at 968m/s. An armour Cane is faster than a Rifter.
1600mm rupture flies at 1236m/s. There's no way you can catch that with a scrambler.
The Cane doesn't even need to get into scramble range! 24km point!

2. Myrm being attacked by multifrequency can tank 533dps.
Myrm being attacked by fusion can tank 349dps.
Wrong!

Quote:
1. Not with you applying your full DPS at the Drake anyway. You know, with scorch. On the other hand, an Armor Hurricane is screwed, because he's only doing ~60% of his DPS with barrage, and it's exp/kin.

2. You're assuming that the Armor Cane already has fusion loaded, and starts at 0km, so doesn't have to close the distance to apply its dps (while, mind you, the harb is doing full damage with scorch.) If this is the case, then yes, it will probably win. If not, then the Harb has a very good chance.

3. About the nanocane, again, assumptions. If the nanocane, at any time during the fight, ends up anywhere within 13km of the Harb, either at the beginning of the fight or because he's a bad pilot/the harb isn't a bad pilot, he is dead. Game over. No chance. Even if he doesn't end up that close, the Harb will, with 100% certainty, force him off the field with scorch if he isn't an idiot.

4. The only battleship faster than a Harb is a nanoTempest or nanoPhoon, which is likely to also slay an armor Cane. Or just about any BC. Why are we even comparing BC's to BS?

1. Armour Cane is only 13m/s slower than a HML Drake. It just needs to surprise-overheat the MWD and escape.
Alternatively, it may fly towards the Drake as the Drake is approaching, switch to EMP, and proceed to proceed at a high enough speed get within 10km and melt the poor Drake's face. A Harby will either try to overheat its MWD to escape, and get caught out due to not being significantly faster than the Drake, or turn around and attempt to melt the Drake, but the Drake will make things a bit awkward and turn the other direction before Harby gets in web range.

2. Let's calculate how long it takes for a Cane to catch a Harby! Let's say they start at 24km.
Harby is trying to keep distance by MWDing away at 896m/s (heat). Cane is in pursuit, at 1025m/s (heat). Relative speed is 185m/s for the Cane.
21 seconds: 19km remains. Cane has dealt 7875 damage. Harby has dealt 8820 damage. Harby will now be in optimal.
59 seconds: 12km remains. Cane has dealt 25450 damage. Harby has dealt 28960 damage. Cane begins reloading. Both stop overheating. Cane has 129m/s speed advantage.
69 seconds: 11km remains. Cane has dealt 25450 damage. Harby has dealt 34210 damage. Both use their webs. Harby MWDs at 372m/s. Cane MWDs at 452m/s. Cane is 80m/s faster.
94 seconds: Cane has dealt 39450 damage. Harby has dealt 47710 damage. Harby used its scram. Cane can't get any closer. Both overheat their guns. It's now 675dps of the Cane vs 600dps of the Harby.
The Cane is firing fusion, so the damage-modified 70k ehp Harby has 30k left.
The Harby is firing scorch, so the damage-modified 86k ehp Cane has 39k left.
It will take another 65 seconds for the Harby to kill the Cane.
It will take another 44 seconds for the Cane to kill the Harby.
Cane wins.

3. If the Nanocane is in range, yes, that is the only time the Nanocane can lose. Otherwise, it can escape.

4. Here are the battleships faster than a Harby (896m/s):
Shield Raven with 1 nano: 936m/s
Shield Scorp with 1 nano (lol): 913m/s
Shield gank Domi: 1005m/s
Dualrep Domi: 913m/s
Armour gank Hyperion: 905m/s
Dualrep Hyperion: 919m/s
Shield gank Hyperion: 1041m/s
Armour gank Megatron: 900m/s
Shield gank Megathron: 1052m/s
Shield Maelstrom with 1 nano: 913m/s
Shield gank Tempest: 1067m/s
Armour gank Tempest: 914m/s
Shield gank Typhoon: 1154m/s
Armour gank Typhoon: 989m/s
Shield gank Vindi: 1109m/s
Armour gank Vindi: 950m/s
Shield gank Mach: 1505m/s
Armour gank Mach: 1287m/s
Shield Rattlesnake with 1 nano: 936m/s

Do your research.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#254 - 2011-11-15 02:52:25 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Are we going to have a duel from 50 clicks comparison?


I don't know what you mean here.

Quote:
My point has consistently been that when I can be on top of Amarr in seconds and away just as fast - I shouldn't be hitting out that far in the first place.


So are you still arguing that Minmatar hit further than Amarr?
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#255 - 2011-11-15 03:11:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruah Piskonit
Mfume Apocal wrote:

So are you still arguing that Minmatar hit further than Amarr?



you are selectivly reading. If range were so supreme, then w would all be in eagles. But we are not. The point (I think) is that Mini have 'enough' range, and much better tracking. So really, inside 20km, tracking starts to reduce damage a lot for pulse. Inside 10km, you will see mini ships actually out damaging Amarr - specially if they load the right ammo.

Projectiles have no weakness (falloff maybe, but falloff is actually not a big dps hit till +50%), Gallente have range, tracking, damage types and fitting (we will see how the changes affect this), Amarr have tracking, damage types, cap and fitting. Now add that sweet fast, agile ship and well. . . other then some specialty ships, its a mini game.

Its a pointless debate really, you can keep flying your proj. ships thinking you are having it tough all you want - its not tough - its easy. It used to be tough, and mini still managed well because they were slippery and tough to catch. Now they are slippery, tough to catch and do lots of damage in very damage type.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#256 - 2011-11-15 03:17:38 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:

So are you still arguing that Minmatar hit further than Amarr?



you are selectivly reading. If range were so supreme, then w would all be in eagles. But we are not. The point (I think) is that Mini have 'enough' range, and much better tracking. So really, inside 20km, tracking starts to reduce damage a lot for pulse. Inside 10km, you will see mini ships actually out damaging Amarr - specially if they load the right ammo.

Projectiles have no weakness (falloff maybe, but falloff is actually not a big dps hit till +50%), Gallente have range, tracking, damage types and fitting (we will see how the changes affect this), Amarr have tracking, damage types, cap and fitting. Now add that sweet fast, agile ship and well. . . other then some specialty ships, its a mini game.

Its a pointless debate really, you can keep flying your proj. ships thinking you are having it tough all you want - its not tough - its easy. It used to be tough, and mini still managed well because they were slippery and tough to catch. Now they are slippery, tough to catch and do lots of damage in very damage type.


Eagles are rather dramatically outdamaged until they literally outrange everyone in the fleet - so no, we wouldn't be in Eagles. We'd be in ships like the Abaddon and Geddon and avoiding ships like the Hyperion and Megathron.

Oh.

Wait.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#257 - 2011-11-15 03:23:51 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Are we going to have a duel from 50 clicks comparison?


I don't know what you mean here.

Quote:
My point has consistently been that when I can be on top of Amarr in seconds and away just as fast - I shouldn't be hitting out that far in the first place.


So are you still arguing that Minmatar hit further than Amarr?


1) I'm poking fun at the EFT debate raging around us.

2) No. I'm saying since they control the engagement range they should have a more limited firepower arc. My Minmatar ship and you're Amarr ship start at 50km apart. I start burning at you at 3km/s. I'm under your guns in seconds. AND I've been hitting you the whole time during the approach. What's wrong with this picture?
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#258 - 2011-11-15 03:25:11 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:

I'd say rails in particular won't be cured without some kind of ammo tweaking and probably range reduction for more tracking and/or dps. The niche they reside in doesn't exist (150km+ sniping). That much is clear. Blasters seem to be a diffirent issue. They have more problems with the ships themselves. As far as what's on sisi right now, I think it's a bit deficient in both hybrid catergories.


I'd really like to see 150-250km sniping come back to Eve. :(

-Liang


why? it's so boring. short/medium range skirmishes are much more fun; leave 100km sniping for HACs, tier 3 BC's and specialized BS's.

why dont we start with allowing rails to do decent dps past 30km?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#259 - 2011-11-15 03:37:53 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Are we going to have a duel from 50 clicks comparison?


I don't know what you mean here.

Quote:
My point has consistently been that when I can be on top of Amarr in seconds and away just as fast - I shouldn't be hitting out that far in the first place.


So are you still arguing that Minmatar hit further than Amarr?


1) I'm poking fun at the EFT debate raging around us.

2) No. I'm saying since they control the engagement range they should have a more limited firepower arc. My Minmatar ship and you're Amarr ship start at 50km apart. I start burning at you at 3km/s. I'm under your guns in seconds. AND I've been hitting you the whole time during the approach. What's wrong with this picture?


Three things:
- You claiming you're hitting him for anything meaningful at that range.
- You claiming you're hitting him at all when you're going 3km/s.
- You claiming you're going 3km/s in the first place. Some specified ship here might be nice. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#260 - 2011-11-15 03:42:40 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:

I'd say rails in particular won't be cured without some kind of ammo tweaking and probably range reduction for more tracking and/or dps. The niche they reside in doesn't exist (150km+ sniping). That much is clear. Blasters seem to be a diffirent issue. They have more problems with the ships themselves. As far as what's on sisi right now, I think it's a bit deficient in both hybrid catergories.


I'd really like to see 150-250km sniping come back to Eve. :(

-Liang


why? it's so boring. short/medium range skirmishes are much more fun; leave 100km sniping for HACs, tier 3 BC's and specialized BS's.

why dont we start with allowing rails to do decent dps past 30km?


There's so much epic fail packed into this post that I'm not totally sure how to respond. I'll try anyway. In short, you're asking for nerfs because your chosen weapon platform doesn't have a large enough niche in an area it was never meant to dominate in. At the same time, you're denigrating the niche it was always supposed to operate in.

Furthermore, why would you be in favor of homogenizing the weapon systems when you can instead (re)introduce combat that was never meant to be taken out?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.