These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Skill Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#781 - 2013-09-06 21:03:26 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Ressiv wrote:

Same goes for all5 skills, so 'even odds' in this comparisson is an illusion. If your target is an older toon, likely to have 5's where you have 4's or 3's, then dont try to outperform him in a similar fit ... adapt to his weakness.

Even odds does not mean: match my fitting and playstyle.


Have you tried using a frigate (or higher) with low SP? Even a counter can wtfpwn you when his skills outshine your own. If three Incursus (lvl 5 peeps) came across your 6 man Merlin/Kestrel gang, they'd slaughter you. Maybe if they were facing three lvl5 Kestrels, they'd get their butts kicked in, but when you have such low SP, dps, and tank, there's no way you'd be able to do any damage whatsoever.


I don't think new pilots should be jumping into Cruisers and stuff immediately. They need to take their time and slowly get into the game as well. I just think making the initial jump of getting to PvP would be tremendously easier if they started with the core Fitting Skills (Engineering/Electronics) to V, One weapons group to V (Rockets, Hybrids, etc), and one Frigate to V. It's about one month's worth of training, but it would help people not feel entirely useless when they first start and subsequently quit.



P.S. anybody can +1 (scout low-sec). You're not doing anything but using your eyes which have no relation to your SP.


A 3 man incursus fleet should NOT slaughter a 6 man Merlin Kestrel gang, even if the Incursus were all Level 5 Pilots and the Merlins were all level 3 pilots (which they should be level 4 given the ease of reaching that level). You may have experienced this, but there is a very good reason you'd lose this fight:

a.) Fleet discipline: If your fleet didn't focus fire, came in piecemeal, and didn't unerstand combat mechanics I'd suspect you could easily lose.

b.) That 3-man incursus fleet is really a 4 or 5 man fleet, 2 members of which were in boosters. Most people that dabble in PvP, especially in lowsec FW zones, come off thinking it is their skills that are the cause of massive inbalances in ship performance. The truth is, OGB's provide more effectiveness to tanking, speed, and ewar than all your relevant skills combined!

Anomaly One
Doomheim
#782 - 2013-09-07 02:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Anomaly One
edit: Just wanted to say what makes this game amazing is the SP system, it makes you appreciate it that much more, hell it's only 1 month and i'm flying a battlecruiser and doing level 3 missions! AND I can pvp in a frigate what more can I want ? :p
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#783 - 2013-09-07 03:12:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Anomaly One
double post deleted.
Zoyx Ruhroh
A-OK Logistics and Fabrication
StoneGuard Alliance
#784 - 2013-09-16 00:05:05 UTC
I think the SP system is fine. In fact, that is why I came to Eve. I was so tired of the grind reset every two years. Here it is nice to see something that carries on. SP rewards veterans.
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#785 - 2013-09-20 00:57:56 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Hi,

So I have come to like more "mature" MMOS and eve struck me as one of the best.
I started playing 2 months ago and just lost all the friends I brought into eve.

This game is simply way too punishing for new players. Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.
Then you have some of the basics and can still not do anything special.
My first month of eve was great... But it was all just theoretical fun. All I did was plan stuff and study about the game and it's mechanics. So I brought 4 of my friends in which all payed for 1 month + trial. They loved the first month of eve and into the seconds month they all saw just how truly pathetic they were in terms of SP. Everything they wanted to do was years of training away. I was going to quit as well until I heard of the character bazaar. So I dropped a huge load of $ to buy a pilot that could actually play the game.

I am sure the long SP training ques are CCP's way of "milking" $ out of us.
Which proves a point to me. Every one that I have spoken to that plays eve has at least 1-4 alts.
So that in itself proves how low the game population actually is.
Now this isn't a troll or whining thread.
If CCP truly wanted to make more $ something needs to be done about SP.
The longer the game progresses the more useless new players become.
Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?

So this is as constructive as a new player can get.
I am not mad in any way. I actually want to help eve grow, that's the whole reason of this thread.
I want to know if anything is being done about the huge SP brick wall.
From what I am seeing the summer change is making it even harder for new players.
Battle cruisers were a huge win for new players as it didn't take too long to fly them and now it's even taking that small win away from new players.

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?
I truly want to see this game grow so help me talk to the right people.
If I could talk to the right people I could really guarantee new players sticking around instead of getting discouraged and quitting.

Regards: Hefty


I would agree with you if skills just kept going higher than level 5. Then an older player would have an advantage that a young player could never catch up to.

But skills are capped at level 5. And there are not too many to get to level 5 to get good at any one thing. To get good at all things would take many years and nobody is there yet in all things.

So yes the game takes time and is not for the instant gratification types. CCP will never gain those type of gamers until they get bored of those type games, which they do and move on to the next one quite frequently.

So I want you to notice, just once, think about how many games your friends have played over the last ten years.
How many of them are still around and are still being played by as many or more players than when they started 10 years ago? Can you even think of one title? You risk doing that to eve if you change this game in any significant way?
0mez
Doomheim
#786 - 2013-09-25 13:12:30 UTC
I agree on some of the points made. The whole point of EVE is to do one specific thing in game otherwise it will take years to train, this is why so many people have alt characters for different aspects of the game. Personally I don't think the SP works for new players either, I too know loads of people who have quit because of the SP system.

Older players war new player corps to try and grab ISK from them, see it all the time. What CCP need to look at is players and corps who specifically try to dictate the game to low SP players, because IMO those people are the ones costing CCP more than the low SP problem they have for new players. There are too many low SP bullies in game who start wars just because someone has a different view to them (we all know who they are)... People who try to dictate and play god in game should be targeted by CCP and by this I don't mean a warning message; CCP should be making month bans on these players as they never ever take any notice of warnings.

Going back on topic; for level 4 missions it takes about 3 months to learn to have a relevant build to do that, so not that long really. For PvP I would say longer as you need to level both defense and lower ships to start with to get into PvP properly. The only low level PvP corps use frigates to teach people the basics of PvP. Frigate PvP fits can cost like 7m-20m each, so it's not really viable for new players to do PvP. I think the main thing you are stating is the war system and how low SP hinders players (and war is the main aspect of EVE).
Rengor Elongur
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#787 - 2013-09-25 13:22:09 UTC
I have to object...

Frigs dont cost 8-20 M to get into PVP...

I joined R vs. B, bought 100 Frigs (including Fittings) and started to have fun. All 100 of them together only cost less then 100M ISK, and i can have fun.

I am not fitting them with T2 gear, but I do have added 3 Rigs. I still manage to die in stupid ways (like noticing that you Need to have the ammo in your cargo hold instead of your guns when you save a fit), but i start to have fun. And when I lose a ship, i just have to fit a new one in a matter of seconds.

Jonas Valence
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#788 - 2013-09-26 03:10:11 UTC
Just a note on needing 2 years+ as op stated. I found a need for an alt account, about a year ago. A year later he is a maxed out miner, armor logi, legion pilot, he can build anything t1 with perfect material levels, and has all core certs to elite. It just depends how you go about training and what aspects of the game you enjoy.
Aivo Dresden
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#789 - 2013-09-29 10:31:13 UTC
I joined RvB after 3 weeks of playing. In those first 3 weeks, I did the tutorial missions, and the Sisters of EVE arc to get some ISK. You can play this game at any character age, no matter what you like, PvP mining, missions, ...
Salome Musashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#790 - 2013-10-01 05:15:28 UTC
Bah, in my day you spent your first month just training Learning skills, before CCP came to their senses and just gave all new players those extra attribute points for free...AND you get to remap once a year.

*shakes cane at kids*

Skill training is faster than ever now...and what took 1.5 years? I was getting my first capital ship around then....
Mashie Saldana
I'm Sorry Shoot What?
WE FORM V0LTA
#791 - 2013-10-01 09:21:10 UTC
I guess CCP heard some of the cries in this thread as now they will simplify the skillpath to T2 guns greatly.
Frank Millar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#792 - 2013-10-01 11:10:20 UTC
Mashie Saldana wrote:
I guess CCP heard some of the cries in this thread as now they will simplify the skillpath to T2 guns greatly.

Cue whine threads about wasted skill time and points, demanding reimbursement. Twisted
Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
#793 - 2013-10-01 21:14:17 UTC
Sad truth about this game is that of the 5 that start, 4 quit....

but the one that remains ends up buying 6 accounts.
Luwc
Maidens Of The Chalice
Two Maidens One Chalice
#794 - 2013-10-02 09:00:38 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Hi,

So I have come to like more "mature" MMOS and eve struck me as one of the best.
I started playing 2 months ago and just lost all the friends I brought into eve.

This game is simply way too punishing for new players. Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.
Then you have some of the basics and can still not do anything special.
My first month of eve was great... But it was all just theoretical fun. All I did was plan stuff and study about the game and it's mechanics. So I brought 4 of my friends in which all payed for 1 month + trial. They loved the first month of eve and into the seconds month they all saw just how truly pathetic they were in terms of SP. Everything they wanted to do was years of training away. I was going to quit as well until I heard of the character bazaar. So I dropped a huge load of $ to buy a pilot that could actually play the game.

I am sure the long SP training ques are CCP's way of "milking" $ out of us.
Which proves a point to me. Every one that I have spoken to that plays eve has at least 1-4 alts.
So that in itself proves how low the game population actually is.
Now this isn't a troll or whining thread.
If CCP truly wanted to make more $ something needs to be done about SP.
The longer the game progresses the more useless new players become.
Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?

So this is as constructive as a new player can get.
I am not mad in any way. I actually want to help eve grow, that's the whole reason of this thread.
I want to know if anything is being done about the huge SP brick wall.
From what I am seeing the summer change is making it even harder for new players.
Battle cruisers were a huge win for new players as it didn't take too long to fly them and now it's even taking that small win away from new players.

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?
I truly want to see this game grow so help me talk to the right people.
If I could talk to the right people I could really guarantee new players sticking around instead of getting discouraged and quitting.

Regards: Hefty


I love debunking .

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7297537280/h68DA140A/

here comes my rage à la "yes i am little mad bro"

"just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training."
- This is the biggest bullshit I have ever read on this forum -
You can be effective in a team. EvE is very newbie friendly to players that have an IQ of at least over 80.
You just have to be smart about it and make friends.
If you want to play some my little pony friendly buttzone **** go back to WoW.

You can fly T2 fit battlecruisers in under a year. Which is one of the most used ships in combat operations of any size.

Butthurt dwellers like you turn this game into some happy ass brony **** . You are simply not supposed to fly anything like a T2 Battleship as a 1.5y old dude ( and even that is easily possible meanwhile )

What is left for older players like myself (5y of EvE) when you can get into most stuff within one or two months. ?

A 1 month old newbie in a proper fit tackler can make all the difference. You don't have to be in a faction battleship or likewise since you are already too new to use it properly now anyway. And that is the point.

Also . There is no milking if ... once again you are smart about it. Alt's are not a bad thing at all for you.
Because alts allow you to make enough isk for PLEX.
EvE is one of the very few games that let you pay actual gametime with actual ingame currency on a realistic amount.

-
Bitching about not understanding it fast enough ?

create multiple "fake" trial accounts and play ... especially with newb friendly other players until you understand it.
-

By all means . EvE is not hard at all.
You are just too ******** to understand it.


-
When i started EvE was even more unforgiving and hard to understand. Laser Moas have been lost and I learned from it.
Made friends , joined corps and walked the path I choose.
-
It's not supposed to be easy.





http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif

Thufir Bezluden
Doomheim
#795 - 2013-10-07 04:36:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Thufir Bezluden
Just started back up 2 days ago... played from dec/2014 to dec/2007 and part of 2009/10.

I love that I don't have to do learning and adv learning skills. 2 months saved.
I like this +3 uber booster going on in my noggin to boost stats.
I don't like that the "Starter Pack" gave me a pretty worthless set of skills, but I wanted the cheap 3 month subscription.

It takes about 3 months for any new player to get into decent ships/guns/tanking, so why start us off with such damn low skill points when you know what the basic core should about 2.4 million SP.

I miss a bit of the old character selection where you got to go different paths toward a career; gave starting players some really nice direction. I don't mind being a newb again; well, not much. Just get newbies into the game quicker, the first 2 months of eve have always been the killer.

Yes, proper newbies can, with Ewar/Tackling, screw over the oldest toons, but that doesn't describe every newbie -not all want pvp right out the gate.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#796 - 2013-10-07 09:16:16 UTC
Tigerras wrote:
Sad truth about this game is that of the 5 that start, 4 quit....

but the one that remains ends up buying 6 accounts.


This is pretty much the truth on EVE. I had 3 real life friends playing the game. I'm the only one playing and I have 4 accounts plus I started a started account in steam for funs and I realized that I can't do anything with the pilot. Hes totaly useless when it comes to fitting ships / combat and if you want to get him into a corporation so you could get some new friends then comes the question battery and api checks and all maner of things that usualy ends up when you say this is and alt and I just wanna try out something else and then no one realy want you anymore because people are paranoid about meta gaming, thefts and orher things.

Also I had a cerbal booster thing for 14 days but I honestly realized that it will take months before my pilot will actualy be effective if hes alone and when you think eve and with my 7 years of experiense training a new char to get something new done and seeing how a player would start the game... the game system is just not in any way fair towards them and it's way too time consuming.

And for those who say that eve has more subcriptions that it has had before. So what... every alt in the game is a subcription. How many actual players does the game have. That the number people should be thinking about not how many subcriptions there are active. A corporation may have 30 members and it could be that is one 1 actual person using all the characters in that corporation instead of actualy having 30 real people playing the game.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Robbin Sund
#797 - 2013-10-08 09:42:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Robbin Sund
EDIT: I got ruzzled to hard withotu realizing it was a 40+page topic.


"I bought the book now, I just want to read the end, I dont care about the story or how it progress, give me the ending now!" :)

One way trip! Why dont you drive?

Baggo Hammers
#798 - 2013-10-08 15:11:14 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Tigerras wrote:
Sad truth about this game is that of the 5 that start, 4 quit....

but the one that remains ends up buying 6 accounts.


This is pretty much the truth on EVE. I had 3 real life friends playing the game. I'm the only one playing and I have 4 accounts plus I started a started account in steam for funs and I realized that I can't do anything with the pilot. Hes totaly useless when it comes to fitting ships / combat and if you want to get him into a corporation so you could get some new friends then comes the question battery and api checks and all maner of things that usualy ends up when you say this is and alt and I just wanna try out something else and then no one realy want you anymore because people are paranoid about meta gaming, thefts and orher things.

Also I had a cerbal booster thing for 14 days but I honestly realized that it will take months before my pilot will actualy be effective if hes alone and when you think eve and with my 7 years of experiense training a new char to get something new done and seeing how a player would start the game... the game system is just not in any way fair towards them and it's way too time consuming.

And for those who say that eve has more subcriptions that it has had before. So what... every alt in the game is a subcription. How many actual players does the game have. That the number people should be thinking about not how many subcriptions there are active. A corporation may have 30 members and it could be that is one 1 actual person using all the characters in that corporation instead of actualy having 30 real people playing the game.



So what do your 4 other accounts do? Nothing as well? Seems like a sound plan. Good luck!

If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#799 - 2013-10-08 19:08:41 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Tigerras wrote:
Sad truth about this game is that of the 5 that start, 4 quit....

but the one that remains ends up buying 6 accounts.


This is pretty much the truth on EVE. I had 3 real life friends playing the game. I'm the only one playing and I have 4 accounts plus I started a started account in steam for funs and I realized that I can't do anything with the pilot. Hes totaly useless when it comes to fitting ships / combat and if you want to get him into a corporation so you could get some new friends then comes the question battery and api checks and all maner of things that usualy ends up when you say this is and alt and I just wanna try out something else and then no one realy want you anymore because people are paranoid about meta gaming, thefts and orher things.

Also I had a cerbal booster thing for 14 days but I honestly realized that it will take months before my pilot will actualy be effective if hes alone and when you think eve and with my 7 years of experiense training a new char to get something new done and seeing how a player would start the game... the game system is just not in any way fair towards them and it's way too time consuming.

And for those who say that eve has more subcriptions that it has had before. So what... every alt in the game is a subcription. How many actual players does the game have. That the number people should be thinking about not how many subcriptions there are active. A corporation may have 30 members and it could be that is one 1 actual person using all the characters in that corporation instead of actualy having 30 real people playing the game.


If you have 3 other accounts, you can afford to take time to train your 4th account for 2-3 months before sending him to his capital ship.

However, if you want to experience the game as a new character, then don't try to "jump to the end." EvE is about the journey, and while SP unlocks new paths for you to dabble in, you don't need a lot of SP to start heading down most paths in EvE.

Kregan Gadhar
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#800 - 2013-10-10 16:39:18 UTC
I always love hearing this issue. For those of use who remember the learn skills, those were dropped in favor of helping said noobs. Also during a certain period of training time in the beginning you get a quicker jump than the older chars ever did. On top of that, the ability to effect which skills you get is a lot better than it was.

So, as it stands, because of trying to gain favor with new people, my SP count got lowered. I have been playing since '06 and when learn skills got dumped, since I had them maxed, I lost in the long run. Supposedly 6 years for max learn skills to pay off, looking for the future, and new people whining brought that to an end.

Can't do anything? Have you tried joining a corp that is willing to help you out or did you start your own? When you are trying to learn a game that has as many various things to do as this one, you need experienced people to help guide you down the path that you have chosen. You can play this game solo and I am sure many do, but this place is more geared to working together.

I can't PVP, I can't fight, I can't handle null sec. I have seen 1 month old chars come into null sec and thrive. Get them into a specific role, like tackling. Quick, easy train and can be done in frigates, destroyers, and etc. Doesn't take a long time to get something like this going. It is all a matter of wanting to play the game. Just like in life, if you want to find something to nit pick and gripe about, you will find it.

They are better than me, they have more SP than me, they have more isk than me, and pretty soon we will have people saying that we need to redistribute the SP and isk to make noobs happier. Lets punish those who have played the game a long time because of other who are too impatient to work for a long term benefit. Eve isn't about short game, it is about the long game.