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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Dave Stark
#2641 - 2013-09-05 18:43:15 UTC
Wolfgang Achari wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Kasuko Merin wrote:
Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...

...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses?



certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators....


well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder?


Better applied damage due to the increased optimal+falloff, better tanking because of t2 resists (and rep bonus in Sebastian mode), better mobility because of MJD role bonus, available utility high-slots, and better cap come to mind.

I do have to agree though, the current proposed changes are kind of coming from left field. Likewise it homogenizes all the marauders to be the same ship with different weapon systems/slot layouts.


i'm going to reply strictly from the view of incursions because frankly; that's all i care about.

the increased optimal and falloff is irrelevant because in incursions you can sit on the spawns and they spawn within optimal range, if you're slightly out of optimal range, getting in range is trivial with 90% webs.
t2 resists aren't a bonus when the vindicator has an extra mid slot allowing it to use an extra invuln to completely negate the t2 resist bonus.
bastion module is an "i want a 1bn isk loss mail" in incursions.
nobody uses mjds in incursions, there's simply no need for them.
sure the utility highs are nice, but the vindicators damage and webs will clear sites faster and give you more isk/hour.

I don't know what CCP want marauders to do, but it's certainly not be incursion ships.
Dave Stark
#2642 - 2013-09-05 18:44:46 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Seriously, would you rather they don't give us a few options to comment on?


sure. it'd also be nice if they took a moment to produce a coherent set of options, though. the marauder suggestions, and iterations so far have been very incoherent.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#2643 - 2013-09-05 18:47:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Wolfgang Achari wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Kasuko Merin wrote:
Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...

...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses?



certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators....


well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder?


Better applied damage due to the increased optimal+falloff, better tanking because of t2 resists (and rep bonus in Sebastian mode), better mobility because of MJD role bonus, available utility high-slots, and better cap come to mind.

I do have to agree though, the current proposed changes are kind of coming from left field. Likewise it homogenizes all the marauders to be the same ship with different weapon systems/slot layouts.


i'm going to reply strictly from the view of incursions because frankly; that's all i care about.

the increased optimal and falloff is irrelevant because in incursions you can sit on the spawns and they spawn within optimal range, if you're slightly out of optimal range, getting in range is trivial with 90% webs.
t2 resists aren't a bonus when the vindicator has an extra mid slot allowing it to use an extra invuln to completely negate the t2 resist bonus.
bastion module is an "i want a 1bn isk loss mail" in incursions.
nobody uses mjds in incursions, there's simply no need for them.
sure the utility highs are nice, but the vindicators damage and webs will clear sites faster and give you more isk/hour.

I don't know what CCP want marauders to do, but it's certainly not be incursion ships.

Now that's funny
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#2644 - 2013-09-05 18:47:07 UTC
I get a lot of "you're doing it wrong" when I say I just sit there and tank in BS PvE. But the fact is, you can just sit there and tank it as is. The boost to repping will allow you to do so with even less slots, allowing for more damage application. If I can get a similar completion time in my Vargur/Golem to my Mach/TFI while also salvaging it will be a very nice upgrade.

As far as PvP is concerned there's not much battleship speed tanking going on as is. The changes make the Marauder useable in PvP compared to what it is now. The resists help for when they are able to get reps.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2645 - 2013-09-05 18:50:55 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
Both ships can fit the exact same tanking modules. However, when in bastion mode you are immobile. So you will very quickly, as the NPCs come into optimal range, start to receive MAXIMUM damage. Where as with the old version, you remain mobile and can adjust your traversal and range while under AB/MWD for a significant reduction of incoming damage. So really it looks like:


T2 resists.
100km travel time after MJD and range bonus.


I understand that T2 resists offer some benefits. However, if you look at the opening of my post you'll see that i'm talking about rats that a Paladin should be shooting, Sansha/BR. For those specific situations the T2 resists add absolutely nothing to EHP or rep EHP.

I also understand the power of the MJD bonus and how it aligns with the sniper playstyle. I think it's actually quite nice in that role. However again, in my post I'm talking about fitting short range (mega pulse) lasers and do CQ combat with the Paladin. In this scenario the MJD doesn't help other than to gain initial position if the groups are situated nicely around 60-80K away at warp in.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2646 - 2013-09-05 18:52:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
My proposal is to add two scripts to bastion module, so we could decide which characteristics of ship we want to boost. This include ability to move with bastion module on, just without ability to warp, dock and jump.

Script nr1 - For boosting EW abilities and movement (more pvp oriented)
* 70% cooldown bonus on MJD
* 50% reduction in MWD/MJD cap usage
* 100% stasis web optimal range
* 25% to scan resolution
* 25% to agility
* 25% to tracking and missile explosion velocity


Script nr2 - For boosting long range abilities, tank and dps (more pve oriented)
* 25% to turret optimal/missile velocity and turret falloff/missile flight time
* 25% to damage of large turrets, torpedoes and cruise missiles
* 100% to shield and armor repair amount
* 25% cap reduction of local armor reps and shield boosters
* 150% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams and salvagers
* 100% more cap usage of MWD (making them more like stationary/slow moving turret for balance reasons)

Both scripts:
* Unable to warp, dock and jump with working bastion module
* Unable to be remote assisted in any way with working bastion module


Marauders role bonus can be:
* 100% to missile and turret damage
* Immunity to EW and Defender Missiles (some hidden bonus adding HP to our missiles making them well protected against defenders and smartbombs)
Sarmatiko
#2647 - 2013-09-05 18:52:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Crysantos Callahan wrote:
why the paladin gets the stupid resist pattern for its own limited damage pattern with lasers.

Because developers played through precise tests and decided that Paladin works most effectively against Angels (EM/Thermal lasers against Exp/Kin npc, what a great idea). Or they promote even more BD&SM experience in PVE.
Or simply they don't have any clue.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#2648 - 2013-09-05 18:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:
My proposal is to add two scripts to bastion module, so we could decide which characteristics of ship we want to boost.



This is the most common suggestion in the thread and has my money as the best way forward, adds versatility and diversity.

The specifics need refining by a LONG THUROUGH playtest and more feedback but its definitely got my money
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2649 - 2013-09-05 18:58:02 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Wolfgang Achari wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Kasuko Merin wrote:
Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...

...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses?



certain people who play incursions used tier many alts to ***** about the loss of the web bonus because they do not want vindicators....


well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder?


Better applied damage due to the increased optimal+falloff, better tanking because of t2 resists (and rep bonus in Sebastian mode), better mobility because of MJD role bonus, available utility high-slots, and better cap come to mind.

I do have to agree though, the current proposed changes are kind of coming from left field. Likewise it homogenizes all the marauders to be the same ship with different weapon systems/slot layouts.


i'm going to reply strictly from the view of incursions because frankly; that's all i care about.

the increased optimal and falloff is irrelevant because in incursions you can sit on the spawns and they spawn within optimal range, if you're slightly out of optimal range, getting in range is trivial with 90% webs.
t2 resists aren't a bonus when the vindicator has an extra mid slot allowing it to use an extra invuln to completely negate the t2 resist bonus.
bastion module is an "i want a 1bn isk loss mail" in incursions.
nobody uses mjds in incursions, there's simply no need for them.
sure the utility highs are nice, but the vindicators damage and webs will clear sites faster and give you more isk/hour.

I don't know what CCP want marauders to do, but it's certainly not be incursion ships.

I think you are correct, I don't think that was ever the intention. Now for missions, anoms, and belts either iteration would make sense to one degree or another.

I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2650 - 2013-09-05 19:08:10 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
Both ships can fit the exact same tanking modules. However, when in bastion mode you are immobile. So you will very quickly, as the NPCs come into optimal range, start to receive MAXIMUM damage. Where as with the old version, you remain mobile and can adjust your traversal and range while under AB/MWD for a significant reduction of incoming damage. So really it looks like:


T2 resists.
100km travel time after MJD and range bonus.


I understand that T2 resists offer some benefits. However, if you look at the opening of my post you'll see that i'm talking about rats that a Paladin should be shooting, Sansha/BR. For those specific situations the T2 resists add absolutely nothing to EHP or rep EHP.

I also understand the power of the MJD bonus and how it aligns with the sniper playstyle. I think it's actually quite nice in that role. However again, in my post I'm talking about fitting short range (mega pulse) lasers and do CQ combat with the Paladin. In this scenario the MJD doesn't help other than to gain initial position if the groups are situated nicely around 60-80K away at warp in.

And double active repair.

It just depends on how you like to rat... up close and personal or jump to range. Either way the tank is well beyond what you will need, especially in Bastion mode.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2651 - 2013-09-05 19:09:30 UTC
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:
My proposal is to add two scripts to bastion module, so we could decide which characteristics of ship we want to boost. This include ability to move with bastion module on, just without ability to warp, dock and jump.

Script nr1 - For boosting EW abilities and movement (more pvp oriented)
* 70% cooldown bonus on MJD
* 50% reduction in MWD/MJD cap usage
* 100% stasis web optimal range
* 25% to scan resolution
* 25% to agility
* 25% to tracking and missile explosion velocity


Script nr2 - For boosting long range abilities, tank and dps (more pve oriented)
* 25% to turret optimal/missile velocity and turret falloff/missile flight time
* 25% to damage of large turrets, torpedoes and cruise missiles
* 100% to shield and armor repair amount
* 25% cap reduction of local armor reps and shield boosters
* 150% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams and salvagers
* 100% more cap usage of MWD (making them more like stationary/slow moving turret for balance reasons)

Both scripts:
* Unable to warp, dock and jump with working bastion module
* Unable to be remote assisted in any way with working bastion module


Marauders role bonus can be:
* 100% to missile and turret damage
* Immunity to EW and Defender Missiles (some hidden bonus adding HP to our missiles making them well protecred against defenders and smartbombs)

I like this idea.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#2652 - 2013-09-05 19:09:45 UTC
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
zbaaca wrote:
i have a good question. please explain me WHY CNR have 8/7/5 and golem 8/7/4



THIS


Because Marauders get 19 slots and 2 rigs.
Because Normal BS's get 19 slots and 3 rigs.
Because Navy & Faction BS's have 20 and 3 rigs.

Drone Bonused ships generally get 1 less slot.


I mean.. golem is shitloads of drone bonused, I use it as sentry boat and field 20 sentrys at once!!!
dafuq


A Marauder is a T2 Hull, it is NOT a Navy or Faction Hull.

The "drone bonused ships generallgy get 1 less slot" explains why the Domi and Geddon are 18 slot ships instead of 19 slot ships. It explains why the Rattlesnake is 19 slots instead of 20.

Remember, Carriers get 16, Supercarriers get 18, and Titans get 21.

Now, we could compare HACs (15 slot base) and T1 Cruisers (14 slot base) and Faction Cruisers (15 slot base) and Combat Recons (15 slots) and Force Recons (14 slots) to try and come up with some pattern to justify giving all Marauders 20 slots, but screw the trends. Let CCP balance the ships to be of appropriate power, as the Hull bonuses are far more important.

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2653 - 2013-09-05 19:10:49 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

I think you are correct, I don't think that was ever the intention. Now for missions, anoms, and belts either iteration would make sense to one degree or another.

I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists.

For mission running, as Amarr, T2 resists are worthless. That they are in exchange for the 37.5% tanking bonus makes them less than worthless.
Dave Stark
#2654 - 2013-09-05 19:11:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Ranger 1 wrote:
I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists.


standard modules to get 70% omni resists for incursions are 2x t2 invulns, thermal rig, EM amp.

i'm betting with t2 gallente resists you can get 70% omni resists with EM amp, EM rig, and 1x invuln. however there are no t2 resist profile battleships to test that on.

if i put it on an astarte (nearest comparison i can think of, feel free to provide something better for me to test) we get...

edit; woops, totally forgot the DCII

new stats are:
75 em
75 therm
90 kin
69 exp

we're less than 1% shy of 70% explosive resist, giving us 70% omni resists. so in short, yes the extra mid slot does make the difference.

a vindicator's stats with it's standard modules are:
74 em
72 therm
72 kin
77 exp
Mole Guy
Deep Space Coalition
A Class Apart
#2655 - 2013-09-05 19:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
i wonder what would happen if you entered bastion mode 10 seconds before a pos anchored and who would win when the shields came up?

immobile object verses an unstoppable force?
would the shields bend around you? when you come out of beast mode, would you shoot like a bullet across space in a given direction?
what if i aligned myself towards the moon and shot out? would i enter the moon?

lolol

good way to make a ss.

wonder what would happen if you aligned just right and the moon shot you back into the pos?

space pinball!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2656 - 2013-09-05 19:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Sarmatiko wrote:
Crysantos Callahan wrote:
why the paladin gets the stupid resist pattern for its own limited damage pattern with lasers.

Because developers played through precise tests and decided that Paladin works most effectively against Angels (EM/Thermal lasers against Exp/Kin npc, what a great idea). Or they promote even more BD&SM experience in PVE.
Or simply they don't have any clue.

Smile Of course their resist profile has a direct relationship to their racial enemy, but you knew that.

Since a Paladin has more than enough tank to deal with whatever you choose to hunt, you should consider that the extra tank in other area's provides you with a bit of protection in case of a gank (where the attacker usually fits weaponry that does a damage type they assume the ratter won't tanked for).

Always a silver lining. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2657 - 2013-09-05 19:15:03 UTC
Dark Ways wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.



I understand the the change from 30% resistance bonus in Bastion Mode to having T2 resists to try to appeal to the PVP/PVE crowd who want the remote reps.

What I DO NOT understand is why you are trying to take away the basis of what these ships have been in the local rep bonus. You are taking a ship and adding new skills and modules to get results close to what the ship already had.

I for one did not need the target painter on my golem I surely don't need a web now.

In your effort to make this ship appealing for use in PVP don't ruin the ship for the PVE crowd who have been using the ship for years.


I use target painters on my golem
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2658 - 2013-09-05 19:16:25 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
*snip*

And double active repair.

It just depends on how you like to rat... up close and personal or jump to range. Either way the tank is well beyond what you will need, especially in Bastion mode.


I think it will be enough. However I'm not convinced of the well beyond part. The problem I have is that once bastion mode is active, and nearby NPCs will quickly be within their optimal ranges while you are immobile. This would pretty much guarantee that you receive maximum damage from all NPCs on field. If their damage goes up by 50-100% that double rep amount starts to look pretty bland.

I'd be fine, if not disappointed, if CCP comes back and simply states that these hulls are for sniping with long range weapons and that's that as the bonuses (minus the web) seem to point to just that. However, I'm just trying to make sure that the brawling role isn't neglected. As I said before, this is really only a major problem for the Paladin because the Amarr T2 resist profile is so backwards. The other hulls look to be much improved with the change to T2 resists versus the active tank bonus.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

maGz
Hookers and Blackjack II
#2659 - 2013-09-05 19:18:26 UTC  |  Edited by: maGz
Haven't read the entire thread so maybe this has been suggested: Why not just make the Bastion module the equivalent to both Triage and Siege Modules and control it using scripts. Give us a proper stepping stone to both carriers and dreads (albeit a costful (SP-wise) stepping stone); Triage script with bonus to remote rep range etc., siege script with dmg bonus but tracking penalties etc.. Make the reload of scripts take 5 mins or something, so you have to commit to one or the other. There's probably a ton of flaws with such a module, but it'd be different from the current ambiguous version. Plus it may give us a proper anti-cap ship that isn't another cap.

Just an idea...
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2660 - 2013-09-05 19:20:10 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
*snip*

And double active repair.

It just depends on how you like to rat... up close and personal or jump to range. Either way the tank is well beyond what you will need, especially in Bastion mode.


I think it will be enough. However I'm not convinced of the well beyond part. The problem I have is that once bastion mode is active, and nearby NPCs will quickly be within their optimal ranges while you are immobile. This would pretty much guarantee that you receive maximum damage from all NPCs on field. If their damage goes up by 50-100% that double rep amount starts to look pretty bland.

I'd be fine, if not disappointed, if CCP comes back and simply states that these hulls are for sniping with long range weapons and that's that as the bonuses (minus the web) seem to point to just that. However, I'm just trying to make sure that the brawling role isn't neglected. As I said before, this is really only a major problem for the Paladin because the Amarr T2 resist profile is so backwards. The other hulls look to be much improved with the change to T2 resists versus the active tank bonus.

I think the part that is hanging you up specifically is this.
Quote:
The problem I have is that once bastion mode is active, and nearby NPCs will quickly be within their optimal ranges while you are immobile.

You can jump again within 1 minute. Assuming you kill frigates first (at range) it takes far longer than a minute for any other ship class of NPC to cover 100km. They'll be lucky to get into effective damage range before they are either dead or you simply relocate.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.