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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2401 - 2013-08-22 20:59:44 UTC
Battlingbean wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:


It requires the ship be flown intelligently, but it has a niche.

But again, that might be complicated for line members. :/


This is code for it is a bad ship.



Did I read this right? Are you trolling?

The requirement to think when you fly makes a ship bad?

Many people would tell you to stop flying, but please continue to do so! I look forward to looting many wrecks upon which your name is emblazoned!
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2402 - 2013-08-22 21:04:30 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
so has the utility high slot been swapped to a low slot of the sac yet?



But then it would lose the neutraliser...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Battlingbean
Wings of the Dark Portal
#2403 - 2013-08-22 21:50:04 UTC
Alex Tutuola wrote:


Did I read this right? Are you trolling?

The requirement to think when you fly makes a ship bad?

Many people would tell you to stop flying, but please continue to do so! I look forward to looting many wrecks upon which your name is emblazoned!


Forum ate my post. But basically...

If the ship requires you to out think your opponent to be viable, then It is bad. Why not just fly a ship that is viable then out think/play them with it to gain a better advantage?

Anyways I'm done. It was the worst HAC and has received almost no attention so it is likely to remain the worst and everyone is OK with it.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#2404 - 2013-08-22 22:10:01 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Phaade wrote:
[quote=Onictus]

The Sac will lose to the Deimos in a brawl. If you want to try a kiting Sac, be my guest, but you still won't break the Deimos.



You are right I broke about three of them.



No you didn't. Not if it was properly fit.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2405 - 2013-08-22 22:54:45 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

On another note, I've spent a good amount of time in a Sac as of late and I must say that it is the king of Maar+plate setups. My hams skills are kind **** so i'm only at around 420 dps with faction ammo. Either way 70k+ ehp (no slaves, no links) 80-90% resistance and an "oh ****" heated maar has turned out to be a fantastic counter to some of the hard counters killing the deimos.

I think it's a much-underrated ship, and I look forward to surprising people with it on TQ.

Yeah all of the whining about the Deimost......the sac is something. REALLY digging the changes there.


What changes, has Rise been around since I went to work? Sac is as it was .. no change other than a whopping 0.2 extra base recharge at max skills.

80-90% resists are only possible without BCU's dropping your damage down to destroyer levels and with a 1600 plate + twin trimarks needed for that 70k EHP number you are moving like a slug and will never, ever kill anything as you'll never land a web much less a scram or neut cycle.

I have gone through just about all possible permutations (never the ASB/Gank though as I stay well clear of broken stuff due to having morals Big smile) of the Sacrilege on TQ over the years and can say with some certainty that it will not be some glorious beast with that extra 0.2 base recharge and useless +50% range.
It is a weed-killer, mows scrubs very effectively but then so does any ship from noob to Titan .. actual fights will take a loooong time due to low applied damage and the days when you had 5-10 minutes of "peace" to whittle down an enemy are long gone.

By far the most effective fit I came up with had (pure active because buffer, even partial is just painful with just 5 slots) :
Centii SAR/ MARII/ DCUII/ EANMII/ BCUII
MWD/ M.Inject/ Web/ Scram
5x HAMs / Med. Neutralizer (whatever you do go medium, will save you more times than not if you get the 5-10 minutes peace)
Tank/Application rigs
NB: Was was based on a ratting fit that held up against a 10 man mixed frigate/cruiser gang for quite a while.

I would not dream of taking that up against either of the revised Gallente HACs as it is outbuffered, out manoeuvred, outtanked and outdamaged .. you need at least twin BCU's to compete but that kills your tank and even with a med neut you'll be there until next downtime waiting for the break.

In short: Amarr hulls were not changed other than the meaningless class bonus, the blanket sensor buff, a pointless range bonus on the Sacrilege and a staggeringly +0.7 base recharge on the Zealot. If you want to know how they will handle you don't need to go to SiSi at all .. which is good because all the experience you may have with them remains valid, but ever so sad for their future.
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2406 - 2013-08-22 23:39:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Tutuola
Battlingbean wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:


Did I read this right? Are you trolling?

The requirement to think when you fly makes a ship bad?

Many people would tell you to stop flying, but please continue to do so! I look forward to looting many wrecks upon which your name is emblazoned!


Forum ate my post. But basically...

If the ship requires you to out think your opponent to be viable, then It is bad. Why not just fly a ship that is viable then out think/play them with it to gain a better advantage?

Anyways I'm done. It was the worst HAC and has received almost no attention so it is likely to remain the worst and everyone is OK with it.



I think it needs more speed and slightly better signature, but that the fittings are excellent. For the eagle's intended purpose, it needs nothing else added. I think EVE should involve out-thinking your opponents. The eagle with proposed changes, when flown in a dual propped fleet, can theoretically beat a lot of different fleets. Now, the breakdown is going to be in the deployment speed, because it is still the slowest HAC in base speed. To fight HACs, it's going to need to pull range. Base speed modifies how long they stay in the other fleet's range. To fight battleships, they need to get under the guns. That's why dual prop for a fleet, so you can sig tank the large weapons.

However, if you want to just win by choosing the "right" ship without any other considerations, I suggest you consider another game!
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2407 - 2013-08-23 03:19:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
Phaade wrote:


The Eagle is okay at brawling, it will take down most t1's BC down.....but optimal bonuses don't do a damn thing for blasters. Falloff is FAR superior.

If you want to brawl with blasters and you choose the Eagle, you ****** up.


Wow, im glad all this HAC rebalance then served the Eagle so well. It was and remains a Railgun boat, period.

Whoopdie Doo, look maa no more Drake/Raven for L4s!

Caracal: Kite with any launcher platform, not enough utility (spare highs, dronebay) to Brawl, but can try

Deimos: Superb with Blasters in scram range, not too shabby with Rails + point
Ishtar: Shield or Armor, Neuts or Blasters or ACs, Brawl or Kite

Zealot: Tougher ONI as a kiter, not too shabby as a brawler [Can be Better as a brawler, needs at least 3, ideally 5 light drones]
Sac: Superb with HAMs in scram range, HMLs kite fits now plausible [Ideally a little faster base speed to make the kite fits viable]

Vaga: Still a good kiter, though needs to use Barrage to apply notable damage. Brawling with a shield boosting, 4 mids ship.. lul
Muninn: Apparently the 100mn Arty fits are DA BOMB (lol), but outside of Arty-Kite fits, no plan B.

Seriously, this is the rebalance for HACs? As someone put it so well - this is just reshuffling the deck of 8, some become superb, some supercrap. Rinse repeat a year later?

Whats fine, or arguably, 'overtuned':
- Deimos
- Ishtar
- Sac
- Cerb

Im frankly not very clear on the SiSi status of:
- Zealot
- Vagabond

Whats clearly not:
- Eagle [One niche, RailGun kiter, thats not even that fast or agile, so essentially a Fleet Railgun platform - talk about one trick pony]
- Muninn
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2408 - 2013-08-23 03:29:34 UTC
Quote:
Just because your Deimos can lose to a faction BS does not mean it is balanced. It certainly can't be killed by anything smaller than that unless it was specifically and completely designed to kill a specific Deimos fit. Nothing CS down can apply enough damage to kill it.


Really? You can't kill one with anything short of a faction battleship? Well, I know who I'm hunting when 1.1 hits...
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2409 - 2013-08-23 03:36:08 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Just because your Deimos can lose to a faction BS does not mean it is balanced. It certainly can't be killed by anything smaller than that unless it was specifically and completely designed to kill a specific Deimos fit. Nothing CS down can apply enough damage to kill it.


Really? You can't kill one with anything short of a faction battleship? Well, I know who I'm hunting when 1.1 hits...


Big smile


I tinkered around with about 6-7 different Diemost fits this morning ......still trying to hit these magic numbers.
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2410 - 2013-08-23 03:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
Veshta Yoshida wrote:


What changes, has Rise been around since I went to work? Sac is as it was .. no change other than a whopping 0.2 extra base recharge at max skills.

*snip*

In short: Amarr hulls were not changed other than the meaningless class bonus, the blanket sensor buff, a pointless range bonus on the Sacrilege and a staggeringly +0.7 base recharge on the Zealot. If you want to know how they will handle you don't need to go to SiSi at all .. which is good because all the experience you may have with them remains valid, but ever so sad for their future.


Uh.. no.

From a previous post, changes to Sac on SiSi, compared to TQ (some specific, some class, some overall):

[1] Missile velocity bonus means you can kite in point range with HAMs

[2] Boost to MAR/MAAR repping amounts by 15% in 1.1

[3] MWD Class bonus [reduced sig], further helps in mitigating damage while kiting in above role

[4] Though CAP was never the SACs problem, its even better Cap mgmt now [All HACs have their cap recharge per second set to around 5.5 rather than the former 3.5 - 4.5 cap/sec]

[5] Larger drone bay AND more bandwidth, either full flight of med drones or a spare flight of dishonor ECM lights to GTFO i.e. better counter vs tacklers OR more power if brawling as dual prop

[6] More PG helps get in the Med Neut in the spare high, without using anci rig, means more tank if youre flying the solo/small gang dual prop variety or in fleets

Further, minor but useful buffs:

[7] All HACs will gain 7-8 sensor strength, putting their average Sensor Strength at 22 which is right around combat battleship range. [Helps vs ECM drones and multi-racial ECM]

[8] All HACs gain 15k to 25k lock range [Helps RR Ball fleets v/s Sensor Damps]

Want More?

Try Dual Prop with HAMs, long point, active or buffer to your taste. Faction web if youre feeling generous.

Kite with MWD at 20km, when target eventually closes you down, web, AB-on, Spam keep at range 12-15km (depending on web, links) and enjoy.

vs Deimos, use Faction EMP and full flight of Valks explo and have fun.

Sac is fine, in fact, its great.
Alex Tutuola
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2411 - 2013-08-23 04:54:15 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Just because your Deimos can lose to a faction BS does not mean it is balanced. It certainly can't be killed by anything smaller than that unless it was specifically and completely designed to kill a specific Deimos fit. Nothing CS down can apply enough damage to kill it.


Really? You can't kill one with anything short of a faction battleship? Well, I know who I'm hunting when 1.1 hits...


Big smile


I tinkered around with about 6-7 different Diemost fits this morning ......still trying to hit these magic numbers.



You know what, for the damage and time of engagement that was being quoted, maybe it was a pure tackle deimos. I mean, you don't worry about the damage, and you can go down to electrons for PG, drop the mag field stabs for more armor... It would become an extremely tough heavy tackler!
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2412 - 2013-08-23 06:34:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Seolfor wrote:
Uh.. no....

Why waste that wall on regurgitated matter when you could just have said I forgot the +35m3 drones? Big smile

Yeah, I forgot about the drone increase but does not change the end result by much. Unbonused drones pop right fast against any experienced opponent and EC-XXX will be removed from game at some point, it is one of the few items in database that both players and CCP considers broken after all, kind of odd that they haven't been axed already really.

Too slow, too heavy and damage too sig/speed dependent for it to be able to kite unless you really go ape cherry-picking your targets .. which is actually OK .. but then I'd want all HACs to have to cherry-pick which is not the case.
You mention "at point range", guess how long you get to stay there when you are slower than the majority .. Time-to-Kill is high enough to make even 'only slightly' faster boats problematic.

Will lose the dps/EHP war 99% of the time, with five lows it can never win it .. might go shield/gank but if those kinds of tricks are to be used something is off to begin with. Against buffer tanks you have more than a decent chance but with blanket repairer buffs active will be all the rage so target pool will suffer.

You managed to add one thing of merit, DP.
Hadn't considered that config and it will be as good as it is now. You'll get a handful of kills with it in the opening weeks and none after that as it becomes the de facto standard with potential opponents avoiding Sacs unless prepared for it .. then it is back to pruning the shrubberies.

So one specific fit will work .. does the same apply to all the others? If "no" then it is not 'great' but rather more sub-par bordering on waste-of-ISK.

PS: Have a look at where I want the HACs to be in one of my previous posts .. just want them all to be viable in multiple scenarios and configs which is simply not the case as proposed.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2413 - 2013-08-23 07:19:19 UTC
Alex Tutuola wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Just because your Deimos can lose to a faction BS does not mean it is balanced. It certainly can't be killed by anything smaller than that unless it was specifically and completely designed to kill a specific Deimos fit. Nothing CS down can apply enough damage to kill it.


Really? You can't kill one with anything short of a faction battleship? Well, I know who I'm hunting when 1.1 hits...


Big smile


I tinkered around with about 6-7 different Diemost fits this morning ......still trying to hit these magic numbers.



You know what, for the damage and time of engagement that was being quoted, maybe it was a pure tackle deimos. I mean, you don't worry about the damage, and you can go down to electrons for PG, drop the mag field stabs for more armor... It would become an extremely tough heavy tackler!


No way in hell you are getting that type of tank with neutrons, not in any form of cap stable.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2414 - 2013-08-23 09:29:19 UTC
Quote:
No way in hell you are getting that type of tank with neutrons, not in any form of cap stable.


Of course not. That's why he said drop to electrons for powergrid. Pretty much all of the most popular blaster Deimos fits on Sisi right now are ions. Dropping to electrons does get you enough powergrid to get a good bit more tank. I'll be curious to see the numbers on an all tank tackle Deimos. My suspicion is that it won't perform as well as some other ships, but I could be wrong. Dual propped, it might be a rather tenacious tackler.
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2415 - 2013-08-23 09:49:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Seolfor wrote:
Uh.. no....

Why waste that wall on regurgitated matter when you could just have said I forgot the +35m3 drones? Big smile
...

You managed to add one thing of merit, DP.
Hadn't considered that config and it will be as good as it is now. You'll get a handful of kills with it in the opening weeks and none after that as it becomes the de facto standard with potential opponents avoiding Sacs unless prepared for it .. then it is back to pruning the shrubberies.

So one specific fit will work .. does the same apply to all the others? If "no" then it is not 'great' but rather more sub-par bordering on waste-of-ISK.



My my, arent you the armchair EFT warrior.

Have you tried the Dual Prop fit ingame SiSi or TQ? Im guessing No.

If the Sac is a waste of isk to you, kindly pass me on any Sac hulls you may have.

- Its arguably the best HAC in large fleet with logi support

- In 5-10 man RR ball gangs, its superb

- In solo/2-3 wolf pack its fine, not just as DualProp, but standard 1600 plate brawl version or dual MAR/MAR+MAAR versions also. Passive fit its cap independent, making it immune to Neut and TDs. If you wish to target bigger stuff a Med NOS works like a charm in the utility high. [Again, vs TQ, the SiSi Sac now has the new NOS mechanics AND the +15% on MAR/MAAR benefiting it]

- The HML addition to the ship AND the range bonus addition, AND the better cap gen (so no, not JUST +35m3 drone) means its now a very viable PvE option for running 5 or 6/10s or C3s or blitzing L4s, if you dont wish to invest in a T3 or would rather not attract attention in low/null sec using a T3/CShip/BShip.

What youre asking for the ship would make it OP. A missile explosion velocity or explo radius buff AND especially a Neut buff would just make it a 180M legion. Please.

You keep saying 'other' HACs. Which other HACs? Im guessing youre hell bent on comparing it to the Deimos/Ishtar, which anyways the SiSi debate is ongoing. I personally think the Deimos is so far better, that everything looks a little/extra bit worse.

We all want reasonably balanced HACs, but you demanding the SAC to be buffed is just plain uninformed. Its a very good ship currently on SiSi.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2416 - 2013-08-23 09:53:58 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
No way in hell you are getting that type of tank with neutrons, not in any form of cap stable.


Of course not. That's why he said drop to electrons for powergrid. Pretty much all of the most popular blaster Deimos fits on Sisi right now are ions. Dropping to electrons does get you enough powergrid to get a good bit more tank. I'll be curious to see the numbers on an all tank tackle Deimos. My suspicion is that it won't perform as well as some other ships, but I could be wrong. Dual propped, it might be a rather tenacious tackler.


I tried a dual prop deimos. It couldn't kill anything but it could get initial tackle on a MWD ship and then extricate itself when it needed to. It's a nice concept. Swapping the 1x mag stab (which is how I fit a deimos) for another eanm would give it more staying power.

I think that fit works well for its role as a tough little tackler of battleships.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2417 - 2013-08-23 09:56:10 UTC
Quote:
- Its arguably the best HAC in large fleet with logi support


See, this is something that isn't mentioned enough. Scalability is a balancing factor, and, as was pointed out a page or two ago, it is a quality the Deimos simply doesn't have. The Sacrilege is an amazing ship, and it certainly scales well.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2418 - 2013-08-23 11:06:43 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
- Its arguably the best HAC in large fleet with logi support


See, this is something that isn't mentioned enough. Scalability is a balancing factor, and, as was pointed out a page or two ago, it is a quality the Deimos simply doesn't have. The Sacrilege is an amazing ship, and it certainly scales well.


I imagine after the first couple weeks all I'll ever see are ishtars, Sacs, zealots and cerbs...

In that order.

Just because the active tanking thing doesn't do so hot out here. It can work, but you'll just get blapped as soon as you make yourself annoying.

I don't care how many reppers you pack ontp a Diemost, it'll still get mangled by more than two ships.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#2419 - 2013-08-23 11:14:55 UTC
Seolfor wrote:


Try Dual Prop with HAMs, long point, active or buffer to your taste. Faction web if youre feeling generous.

Kite with MWD at 20km, when target eventually closes you down, web, AB-on, Spam keep at range 12-15km (depending on web, links) and enjoy.

vs Deimos, use Faction EMP and full flight of Valks explo and have fun.

Sac is fine, in fact, its great.



I think you think it has more mid slots than it does. If you use HAMS, your mids need a scram and web, end of discussion, that means if you dual prop it suddenly you're out of mid slots and can only buffer fit it.

If you go active tanked you can't dual prop it because you NEED a cap injector, no questions about it.

If you drop any portion of your tackle you can't apply DPS properly, if you drop the cap injector you're limited to one crappy tank type, if you want cruiser DPS you can't tank properly, if you want HAC tank you can't do any DPS, and nobody in their right mind is fitting a flight of mediums, it will be 1 ec300 flight and 1 light flight.

Stop being a fanboy, the Sac sucks now compared to other Hacs, it'll suck after too, it hasn't been worth a damn since the nano age.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2420 - 2013-08-23 11:43:39 UTC
Seolfor wrote:
Phaade wrote:


The Eagle is okay at brawling, it will take down most t1's BC down.....but optimal bonuses don't do a damn thing for blasters. Falloff is FAR superior.

If you want to brawl with blasters and you choose the Eagle, you ****** up.


Wow, im glad all this HAC rebalance then served the Eagle so well. It was and remains a Railgun boat, period.

Whoopdie Doo, look maa no more Drake/Raven for L4s!

Caracal: Kite with any launcher platform, not enough utility (spare highs, dronebay) to Brawl, but can try

Deimos: Superb with Blasters in scram range, not too shabby with Rails + point
Ishtar: Shield or Armor, Neuts or Blasters or ACs, Brawl or Kite

Zealot: Tougher ONI as a kiter, not too shabby as a brawler [Can be Better as a brawler, needs at least 3, ideally 5 light drones]
Sac: Superb with HAMs in scram range, HMLs kite fits now plausible [Ideally a little faster base speed to make the kite fits viable]

Vaga: Still a good kiter, though needs to use Barrage to apply notable damage. Brawling with a shield boosting, 4 mids ship.. lul
Muninn: Apparently the 100mn Arty fits are DA BOMB (lol), but outside of Arty-Kite fits, no plan B.

Seriously, this is the rebalance for HACs? As someone put it so well - this is just reshuffling the deck of 8, some become superb, some supercrap. Rinse repeat a year later?

Whats fine, or arguably, 'overtuned':
- Deimos
- Ishtar
- Sac
- Cerb

Im frankly not very clear on the SiSi status of:
- Zealot
- Vagabond

Whats clearly not:
- Eagle [One niche, RailGun kiter, thats not even that fast or agile, so essentially a Fleet Railgun platform - talk about one trick pony]
- Muninn


This is what annoys me about the eagle is its so niche .... but the deimos can do many things ... the eagle could have been as good as the deimos as a 20km blaster kiter or it could have brawled to a lesser extent .. but with its poor damage output , lack of drones and chronic lack of mobility it just makes it a waste of time i would rather use a Rail Talos or Naga.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using