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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2021 - 2013-08-14 07:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
Mumble, mumble, Vaga, mumble mumble, kiting, mumble, "useless" bonuses, mumble, damage application.

Eagle and Mun are the only ones that aren't really nice at something now and all the Min pilots are talking about the 'Better at Everything, but Somehow Worse: Vaga.'


The Vaga is doing very well on the test server right now. There have been some guys using it to great effect. It's fast, the damage isn't massive, but it shouldn't be. It's damage is consistent, though. It is capable of harassing a small gang by itself. I'd say that in its role as a hit and run skirmisher, it's doing fine.

Strangely, I haven't even come across anyone flying an Eagle or Munin. So, I'm inclined to believe there is something about their performance that's making them undesirable. I've got a few pilots in my corp that can fly them with decent skills. I'll get them on there to see what they can make of it.

On a different note, the new Sacrilege is a BEAST!
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#2022 - 2013-08-14 08:12:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
The reason your not seeing a lot of Eagles and Muninns is they aren't solo viable, they are obviously intended with medium > large scale gangs in mind.

The issue a lot of people have had with the Vaga is giving it an active bonus has done 2 things;

Not fixed the primary issue with the hull, its poor damage projection (even worse since the TE nerf, I would think they would at least improve the falloff bonus to make up for that).

By giving it a bonus obviously tailored to ASBs it allows you to fit low level guns etc you creating a Vaga that, while not terrible useful solo, is an incredibly quick and fairly resilient heavy tackler, the presence on grid of such a ship would effectively nullify any other nano ship excepting maybe the Cyna.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2023 - 2013-08-14 10:35:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Danny John-Peter wrote:
The reason your not seeing a lot of Eagles and Muninns is they aren't solo viable, they are obviously intended with medium > large scale gangs in mind.

The issue a lot of people have had with the Vaga is giving it an active bonus has done 2 things;

Not fixed the primary issue with the hull, its poor damage projection (even worse since the TE nerf, I would think they would at least improve the falloff bonus to make up for that).

By giving it a bonus obviously tailored to ASBs it allows you to fit low level guns etc you creating a Vaga that, while not terrible useful solo, is an incredibly quick and fairly resilient heavy tackler, the presence on grid of such a ship would effectively nullify any other nano ship excepting maybe the Cyna.


Thanks to the PG buff, you can actually now fit up a real kiting-vaga, meaning:

650mm artillery, small antri-frig neut
mwd, point, cap booster, large SB
2 gyros, 2 TEs, DCU OR nano (preference)
- using two tech-1 ACRs or 1 t2 ACR and a 'gatotte' CB

while still having both the AC-antisupport-vaga and the kovorix-brawl-vaga as open and viable choices.

Same for deimos, you can passive shield tank it with railguns, active shieldtank with blasters and some 15km damage envelope using null, you can put a ridiculous active armor tank on it - while running your MAR cap-stable :o, or straight buffer it with 200mm rails or ions. All pretty decent. (Got in a brawl with a kronos and a sacriledge on SiSi, killed the sac, ran from the kronos http://i.imgur.com/YE6Xihe.jpg?1 , was fun) - testing the ship a while on SiSi also shows why any smaller sig radius on the deimos would prolly push it over the edge of OP.

Especially those two are real blessings, with zealot/sac/ishtar/muninn/eagle being rather narrowed down into a certain role. Didn't test the cerb yet.

On a sidenote, you can fit a 100mn active-armor-muninn with artillery, the high base cap recharge let's you run your **** using a small CB and the yo: UPCOMING ROF buff helps a lot.
S1dy
Uplifting Infernal Paradise
#2024 - 2013-08-14 10:53:54 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
The mwd bonus reduced all rincoming missile damage when mwding, it makes it very hard for abcs to kill the hac and it reduced drone dps.

Its not usefull if you brawl, and unlike on the frig hulls it feels like a incredible lazy bonus but its not broken.

What else do you want? Mwd speed? Still useless in a brawl. AB speed? Makes 100mn cerbs and co way to op. And so on, a good role bonus can be very hard to implement.

Not directly relevant, ABCs need a mobility buff and a flat tracking maulus of 25% (and the talos needs a new bonus)


As many before stated the HAC's already used en mass never fitted MWD and won't so in the future just because survivability is much higher with AB and because MWD is harder to fit - you mostly need to do kompromises to get one online. With the MWD Role Bonus of 50% the only advantage you get comes with speed. But you will still get 40 - 60% (for the Vaga this value will go up to 300%) more damage than with AB, because 50% isn't enough.

The Bonus must be changed into 75% if CCP really wants this bonus for HAC's (what I will never support) or they have to change the Role Bonus into something much more interesting - something that would get the HAC's any specialization they are missing right now. Hell, even a Speedbonus for AB's is far better than this MWD Bonus...
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2025 - 2013-08-14 11:01:50 UTC
S1dy wrote:
[quote=W0lf Crendraven]With the MWD Role Bonus of 50% the only advantage you get comes with speed. But you will still get 40 - 60% (for the Vaga this value will go up to 300%) more damage than with AB, because 50% isn't enough.

The Bonus must be changed into 75% if CCP really wants this bonus for HAC's (what I will never support) or they have to change the Role Bonus into something much more interesting - something that would get the HAC's any specialization they are missing right now. Hell, even a Speedbonus for AB's is far better than this MWD Bonus...


Must agree that a 75% reduction (like on talwars?) would be well noticable. Currently, the mwd sig is good, but way less of a game changer compared to AFs or even Interceptors - mostly cause of the considerable base signature of HACs. Though will all those changes that occured to those HACs, they appear to be in pretty good shape on the test server atleast - and that might be to much candy for actual large scale fleetfights.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#2026 - 2013-08-14 11:18:42 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
The reason your not seeing a lot of Eagles and Muninns is they aren't solo viable, they are obviously intended with medium > large scale gangs in mind.

The issue a lot of people have had with the Vaga is giving it an active bonus has done 2 things;

Not fixed the primary issue with the hull, its poor damage projection (even worse since the TE nerf, I would think they would at least improve the falloff bonus to make up for that).

By giving it a bonus obviously tailored to ASBs it allows you to fit low level guns etc you creating a Vaga that, while not terrible useful solo, is an incredibly quick and fairly resilient heavy tackler, the presence on grid of such a ship would effectively nullify any other nano ship excepting maybe the Cyna.


Thanks to the PG buff, you can actually now fit up a real kiting-vaga, meaning:

650mm artillery, small antri-frig neut
mwd, point, cap booster, large SB
2 gyros, 2 TEs, DCU OR nano (preference)
- using two tech-1 ACRs or 1 t2 ACR and a 'gatotte' CB

while still having both the AC-antisupport-vaga and the kovorix-brawl-vaga as open and viable choices.

Same for deimos, you can passive shield tank it with railguns, active shieldtank with blasters and some 15km damage envelope using null, you can put a ridiculous active armor tank on it - while running your MAR cap-stable :o, or straight buffer it with 200mm rails or ions. All pretty decent. (Got in a brawl with a kronos and a sacriledge on SiSi, killed the sac, ran from the kronos http://i.imgur.com/YE6Xihe.jpg?1 , was fun) - testing the ship a while on SiSi also shows why any smaller sig radius on the deimos would prolly push it over the edge of OP.

Especially those two are real blessings, with zealot/sac/ishtar/muninn/eagle being rather narrowed down into a certain role. Didn't test the cerb yet.

On a sidenote, you can fit a 100mn active-armor-muninn with artillery, the high base cap recharge let's you run your **** using a small CB and the yo: UPCOMING ROF buff helps a lot.


Still doesn't have enough grid for a half decent arty fit or enough range for ACs, so basically, that leaves the relatively terrible Brawl/XLASB Vaga, it looses out to the Cerb the Deimos or any other HAC really.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2027 - 2013-08-14 11:25:49 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Still doesn't have enough grid for a half decent arty fit or enough range for ACs, so basically, that leaves the relatively terrible Brawl/XLASB Vaga, it looses out to the Cerb the Deimos or any other HAC really.


It's way to small and fast to receive all the shiny things. And it's role doesn't overlap in the slightest with the deimos/cerb - that's like comparing a stiletto to an enyo once and to a hawk afterwards.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#2028 - 2013-08-14 11:27:41 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Still doesn't have enough grid for a half decent arty fit or enough range for ACs, so basically, that leaves the relatively terrible Brawl/XLASB Vaga, it looses out to the Cerb the Deimos or any other HAC really.


It's way to small and fast to receive all the shiny things. And it's role doesn't overlap in the slightest with the deimos/cerb - that's like comparing a stiletto to an enyo once and to a hawk afterwards.


Yes thats exactly what its like, the Stilleto goes nice and fast.

It can't kill much, but it goes nice and fast.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2029 - 2013-08-14 11:36:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
I wonder if RISE is even reading this thread anymore.. there's is no indication he is??

Vagabond, Eagle and Deimos still need help...

Vagabond
- nerf speed .. its faster than the stabber now yet all the other HACs are not allowed to be faster than there attack cruisers
-buff tank .. its EHP is barely better than the stabbers .. although its resists are still too high as minnie's T2 resists are.
- bigger cargobay for capboosters
- needs stronger dps

Eagle
- its incredibly slow even ABC's are probably quicker
- anemic dps .. needs a 10% damage bonus
- could use an extra low .. doesn't need 6 mids
- needs a dronebay
- needs its utility high back
-high sig

Deimos
- high sig should be 130 at most
- needs its utility high back .. just increase damage bonuses
- stronger falloff bonus for blasterboats

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#2030 - 2013-08-14 11:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Weeks
Quote:
I wonder if RISE is even reading this thread anymore.. there's is no indication he is??Vagabond, Eagle and Deimos still need help...


No. Deimos doesn't need one... damned... bit of help. Trust me. Get on the test server and fly it.

Ions in your highs. MWD/web/scram/med cap booster 2 in the mids. DC2/EANM/Exp hardener/800mm plate/MAAR/Mag stab in the lows. Hammerhead 2s. Nanobot accelerator and nano pump for rigs. Just do it. This boat isn't hurting at all now and is in a really good place. It's not OP, but it certainly holds its own.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2031 - 2013-08-14 12:10:51 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

Deimos
- high sig should be 130 at most
- needs its utility high back .. just increase damage bonuses
- stronger falloff bonus for blasterboats

With the capability of pulling off a 1k+ active tank, going 2k/s unheated, dealing 550+ dps (sans drones) and having a better capacitor than the droneless three midslot laser boat ... and you want more? Shocked

Seeing as it is a Gallente hull I reckon you might get it, but it will just be all the more broken .. eerily close to the OPness line as is.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2032 - 2013-08-14 12:17:36 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
I wonder if RISE is even reading this thread anymore.. there's is no indication he is??Vagabond, Eagle and Deimos still need help...


No. Deimos doesn't need one... damned... bit of help. Trust me. Get on the test server and fly it.

Ions in your highs. MWD/web/scram/med cap booster 2 in the mids. DC2/EANM/Exp hardener/800mm plate/MAAR/Mag stab in the lows. Hammerhead 2s. Nanobot accelerator and nano pump for rigs. Just do it. This boat isn't hurting at all now and is in a really good place. It's not OP, but it certainly holds its own.


Bleh, go full platinum balls,
5 neutrons, CB, AB, web+scram, MAR, ancil MAR, explo hardener, DCU, 2 magstabs, em-rig and a nanopump I believe. 740dps with valks and void.
Takanuro
Eve Faction Trade Exchange
#2033 - 2013-08-14 14:46:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:



ZEALOT

No big changes here other than the electronics and cap changes.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H, 3M, 7L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1180 PWG, 320 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 980(-4) / 2250 / 1670(-18)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1500 / 285s (-50s) / 5.26/s (+.78)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+1) / .553 / 12580000 / 9.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km(+20km) / 306 / 6
Sensor strength: 21 Radar(+8)
Signature radius: 125



I don't understand why so little is being changed on the Zealot. I've been looking at it compared to the Navy Omen and can't get to grips with this rebalance.

The Nomen is a lot faster (265 v 210), it has more shield (1800 v 980), more armor (2550 v 2250), it has smaller Sig (100mm v 125mm) and less mass (10850000kg v 12580000kg).

On the electronics side, Nomen can lock more targets (7 v 6) and has better scan res (320 v 306).

Nomen also gets the Drone Bay (50m3) whereas Zealot left with any utility here and gets the extra rig slot where it's still classed as T1.

New Zealot seems to have too many 'negative' stats compared to the Nomen that it seems like its going backwards where everything around it is/has been buffed.

Can someone 'sell' flying the new Zealot to me as I'd would really like if it can be justified.

Yes, we're going to die, but you're coming with us!
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2034 - 2013-08-14 14:54:23 UTC
Takanuro wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:



ZEALOT

No big changes here other than the electronics and cap changes.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H, 3M, 7L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1180 PWG, 320 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 980(-4) / 2250 / 1670(-18)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1500 / 285s (-50s) / 5.26/s (+.78)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+1) / .553 / 12580000 / 9.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km(+20km) / 306 / 6
Sensor strength: 21 Radar(+8)
Signature radius: 125



I don't understand why so little is being changed on the Zealot. I've been looking at it compared to the Navy Omen and can't get to grips with this rebalance.

The Nomen is a lot faster (265 v 210), it has more shield (1800 v 980), more armor (2550 v 2250), it has smaller Sig (100mm v 125mm) and less mass (10850000kg v 12580000kg).

On the electronics side, Nomen can lock more targets (7 v 6) and has better scan res (320 v 306).

Nomen also gets the Drone Bay (50m3) whereas Zealot left with any utility here and gets the extra rig slot where it's still classed as T1.

New Zealot seems to have too many 'negative' stats compared to the Nomen that it seems like its going backwards where everything around it is/has been buffed.

Can someone 'sell' flying the new Zealot to me as I'd would really like if it can be justified.


About the only reason i can think of for most of this class of ship is that you get T2 resists beyond that i'm struggling myself

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#2035 - 2013-08-14 16:23:54 UTC  |  Edited by: sten mattson
Harvey James wrote:
Takanuro wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:



ZEALOT

No big changes here other than the electronics and cap changes.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

Slot layout: 5H, 3M, 7L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1180 PWG, 320 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 980(-4) / 2250 / 1670(-18)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 1500 / 285s (-50s) / 5.26/s (+.78)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+1) / .553 / 12580000 / 9.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km(+20km) / 306 / 6
Sensor strength: 21 Radar(+8)
Signature radius: 125



I don't understand why so little is being changed on the Zealot. I've been looking at it compared to the Navy Omen and can't get to grips with this rebalance.

The Nomen is a lot faster (265 v 210), it has more shield (1800 v 980), more armor (2550 v 2250), it has smaller Sig (100mm v 125mm) and less mass (10850000kg v 12580000kg).

On the electronics side, Nomen can lock more targets (7 v 6) and has better scan res (320 v 306).

Nomen also gets the Drone Bay (50m3) whereas Zealot left with any utility here and gets the extra rig slot where it's still classed as T1.

New Zealot seems to have too many 'negative' stats compared to the Nomen that it seems like its going backwards where everything around it is/has been buffed.

Can someone 'sell' flying the new Zealot to me as I'd would really like if it can be justified.


About the only reason i can think of for most of this class of ship is that you get T2 resists beyond that i'm struggling myself


You get more dmg , sensor strengh and locking range not to mention a stronger capacitor for the zealot.
Asize from that the nomen is stronger/more versatile.

I'd love to see the zealot get at least 25mb bandwidth. Then it would at least have a chace against frigs that got a tackle and a kigger cargohold.

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Mnemonym
Salvage Security Services MK.VII
#2036 - 2013-08-14 16:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mnemonym
I think while the Zealot among the HAC crowd is seemingly balanced, vs the Omen and Navy Omen its damage output is lacking.

While I'm content with the Zealot lacking a drone bay, I feel that it should be compensated in some way.

All Level 5 skills: Heavy Beams T2 Hammerhead II Multifrequency 3 faction HS:
Zealot: 461 dps
Omen: 495 dps (368 dps + 127 drone dps)
Navy Omen: 490 dps (332 dps + 158 drone dps )

Perhaps add a dmg role bonus?
50% increase Thermal damage from lasers
Work out as a ~20% increase to dmg for the above.
dps 557

interestingly the dmg increase varies based on crystal.(aprox values)
in distance order.

Gleam: 25%
Conflagration 25%
Multi: 20.0%
Gamma: 18.2%
Xray: 20.0%
Ultraviolet: 16.7%
Standard: 18.8%
Infrared: 14.3%
Microwave: 16.7%
Scorch: 9.1%
Radio: 0%
Aurora: 18.8%

I feel that this would evolve the Heavy Assault nature without breaking much.
Luckily Scorch is heavy EM dmg and thus doesnt bolster Pulse Zealot into overpowered territory.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2037 - 2013-08-14 18:02:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Harvey James wrote:


...

Deimos
- high sig should be 130 at most
- needs its utility high back .. just increase damage bonuses
- stronger falloff bonus for blasterboats


I spent 12 hours on sisi yesterday flying around in a dual rep deimos. So here's how it really panned out:

1. I was in a gang with astarte, vaga and my deimos.
2. we had skirmish and armour gang links
3. sig radius (without implants) was 103. It was 265 with MWD doing 2000m/s
4. I could perma-rep most ships with 1 repper and no cap injection
5. I frequently ran out of AMMO rather than CAP BOOSTERS.
6. That small gang cleared CA1, CA2 and CA3 of all ships barring capitals, for the loss of 1 Astarte, 1 Deimos and 1 Vaga (while my mate was learning how to fit it).

This ship is really fine. At last we have an armour brawler that can engage in more than 1 fight before visiting a station for re-supply.

I was able to fly directly into a tornado's howitzer fire for 70km, tank the damage, scram the toenado and then kill it easily.

I tanked 2 vindicators for long enough for the gang to kill them.

The ship really does not need any more. As it is, I will use it a lot on TQ.

As for needing more falloff, it really doesn't. If you want to kite stick railguns on it with JAVELIN ammo. You will do 512dps (2 mag stabs) + drone damage. That's amazing!


Feel free to convo me in TQ or Sisi if you like.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#2038 - 2013-08-14 18:23:22 UTC
Takanuro wrote:
[quote=CCP Rise]
I don't understand why so little is being changed on the Zealot. I've been looking at it compared to the Navy Omen and can't get to grips with this rebalance.

The Nomen is a lot faster (265 v 210), it has more shield (1800 v 980), more armor (2550 v 2250), it has smaller Sig (100mm v 125mm) and less mass (10850000kg v 12580000kg).

On the electronics side, Nomen can lock more targets (7 v 6) and has better scan res (320 v 306).

Nomen also gets the Drone Bay (50m3) whereas Zealot left with any utility here and gets the extra rig slot where it's still classed as T1.

New Zealot seems to have too many 'negative' stats compared to the Nomen that it seems like its going backwards where everything around it is/has been buffed.

Can someone 'sell' flying the new Zealot to me as I'd would really like if it can be justified.
Go make a build for one, you'll understand why FCs love them. Basically, beam fit they can switch to any range between 20 and 80km instantly and still tank, or they can pulse fit and have freakish tracking out to 30 and fit a bigger tank.
Psychedelic Faynin
Doomheim
#2039 - 2013-08-14 19:02:10 UTC
Fix the description.

Apparently the dev's are unaware of the requirement to have cruisers trained to level 5 to fly a HAC.

Minmatar Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage per level.

Obviously minmatar cruiser is always == 5, since it is a requirement to fly the ship.

Why am I explaining this to them?
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2040 - 2013-08-14 19:05:57 UTC
S1dy wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
The mwd bonus reduced all rincoming missile damage when mwding, it makes it very hard for abcs to kill the hac and it reduced drone dps.

Its not usefull if you brawl, and unlike on the frig hulls it feels like a incredible lazy bonus but its not broken.

What else do you want? Mwd speed? Still useless in a brawl. AB speed? Makes 100mn cerbs and co way to op. And so on, a good role bonus can be very hard to implement.

Not directly relevant, ABCs need a mobility buff and a flat tracking maulus of 25% (and the talos needs a new bonus)


As many before stated the HAC's already used en mass never fitted MWD and won't so in the future just because survivability is much higher with AB and because MWD is harder to fit - you mostly need to do kompromises to get one online. With the MWD Role Bonus of 50% the only advantage you get comes with speed. But you will still get 40 - 60% (for the Vaga this value will go up to 300%) more damage than with AB, because 50% isn't enough.

The Bonus must be changed into 75% if CCP really wants this bonus for HAC's (what I will never support) or they have to change the Role Bonus into something much more interesting - something that would get the HAC's any specialization they are missing right now. Hell, even a Speedbonus for AB's is far better than this MWD Bonus...


No, most hac fleets atm use mwds (altho sometimes they are dualprop), hacs itself are way to expensive and they dont offer much in comparison to a bs or even a t1 crusier to warrant its price in blob warfare.