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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1841 - 2013-08-08 17:58:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
mm.. the claymore is nearly as fast as the eagle!!!! .. what does this tell you???


It tells us that the claymore needs more speed.


Why?


Well clearly if a caldari ship missiles and slow moving brick is being has fast as a minmatar fast/nimble guerilla ship it must be changed no?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1842 - 2013-08-08 18:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Your missing the point by a mile, saying the eagle is good under links is fine, but so are most ships, the problem is that the eagle is terible without links and the rest of the HaCs are not. So his fit with links has no bearing on making the eagles base usefulness on par with the rest. Its like saying intercepters dont need buffs they just need links and halo sets


Thing is, fly a rail-eagle-fleet without links because you're so... what? I mostly compare fits in their respective situation, so I expect a 20-T3-wh-fleet to have a damnation, a 100mn tengu to have a 4-link loki and a shieldfleet... to have a matching CS. When you're going as far as saying that the ship is totally broken, without even considering how that ship could be used in a normal situation (flying with a CS is not THAT unusual), upon seeing a possible application calling 'drek, cheater' is not really insightful.

If it helps, replace the stats with the nonlinked stats... so EHP drops from 95ish to 80k EHP. Signature is up to 208 and velocity goes down by ~10%. If that breaks the ship for you, pls go ahead and cry us a river.

Edit: removed the pyramid :|
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1843 - 2013-08-08 18:52:27 UTC
Pesadel0 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
mm.. the claymore is nearly as fast as the eagle!!!! .. what does this tell you???


It tells us that the claymore needs more speed.


Why?


Well clearly if a caldari ship missiles and slow moving brick is being has fast as a minmatar fast/nimble guerilla ship it must be changed no?



If i have to explain to you why a cruiser should be quicker than a Battlecruiser than you shouldn't be posting on the forums

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1844 - 2013-08-08 19:09:12 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:

Well clearly if a caldari ship missiles and slow moving brick is being has fast as a minmatar fast/nimble guerilla ship it must be changed no?



If i have to explain to you why a cruiser should be quicker than a Battlecruiser than you shouldn't be posting on the forums


Harvey James wrote:
mm.. the claymore is nearly as fast as the eagle!!!! .. what does this tell you???


to me this sounds like the cruiser is faster than the bc....
Romar Thel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1845 - 2013-08-08 19:30:01 UTC
Yes, "sadly" eagle is the slowest hac (one has to take that position). But it relies on its range rather than speed to play.
That is its role. Long range sniping.
Other ships dont have even half of its range.

It's really strange to see people complain why sacri, eagle or whatever doesnt go fast and blabla.
If you want a really fast ship fly the vaga... if you want an armor buff you should go for sacri and likewise for many other doctrine requirements (range, alpha, missiles...).
But it doesnt mean that all ships should be fast AND have good armor buffer AND...

Each has a role. If you cannot choose the one that suits best for each case then you shouldnt blame ship balancing issues...
...nor expect to replace it evenly with another ship.
No, it shouldnt have the same performance.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#1846 - 2013-08-08 21:55:41 UTC
Quote:
There is a difference between races beeing similar and beeing balanced, you can balance stuff by making it different. That in no way means that stuff should be op, beeing the best brawler/kiter in its class does not mean op, op means beeing a whole lot better at it and beeing to strong in general.Which the deimos with these changes is.


It's not at all. As was already pointed out, a few good tech 1 ships with decent enough alpha will still rip through it. Also, your claim that neuts are dead is pretty out of touch. Every ship I've fought in the past 2 few months that has a utility high and isn't a drone boat has had a neut or nos equipped. Heck, I just fought a Brutix pilot the other day that had one. I really don't know what makes you think neuts are dead. They aren't by a long shot, and they are the balance to any active armor repper.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1847 - 2013-08-08 22:34:51 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:


Please go fit 2 LSEs an MWD and 720s on a Vaga and tell me how that goes.


God forbid you have to chose between firepower or tank.



They want both, 70K EHP 800dps at 40km with autocanons 7500m/s with 100mn AB and and a extra slot/fittings for Xl'asb but theirs will get an extra bonus, will use no cap nor charges and reps 150% per cycle when heat -heat dmg 0%

Roll


If you can do that all on the same Vagabond fit, well, its not possible so what I'd so isn't relevant.
Find another straw man, the Vaga should be a decent kiter, currently it is severely outclassed, and now it has a useless bonus.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1848 - 2013-08-08 22:36:16 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Alex Tutuola wrote:
(eagle is terribly broken, needs fixes, doesn#t qualify for fleetuse, outranged by ABCs)



[Eagle, Rail]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Shield Extender II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


85K EHP before heat with a lowest resist of 77.3% Explosive, just over 2K/S with a Zors and 414DPS out to 79+25 with Uranium or 497DPS at 53+25 with CNAM.

Looks pretty good to be honest.


Meanwhile the average Naga fit... Roll

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1849 - 2013-08-08 22:39:02 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
There is a difference between races beeing similar and beeing balanced, you can balance stuff by making it different. That in no way means that stuff should be op, beeing the best brawler/kiter in its class does not mean op, op means beeing a whole lot better at it and beeing to strong in general.Which the deimos with these changes is.


It's not at all. As was already pointed out, a few good tech 1 ships with decent enough alpha will still rip through it. Also, your claim that neuts are dead is pretty out of touch. Every ship I've fought in the past 2 few months that has a utility high and isn't a drone boat has had a neut or nos equipped. Heck, I just fought a Brutix pilot the other day that had one. I really don't know what makes you think neuts are dead. They aren't by a long shot, and they are the balance to any active armor repper.


A brutic with a medium neut is failfit, and you know that (or should at least), not that one medium neut would put any real preasssure on it.

And again, "a blob is a counter to it" is no argument.


Hurr durr titans werent op, if you dropped 2k alpha nados on them they get alphaed.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1850 - 2013-08-08 23:02:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Heribeck Weathers
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
There is a difference between races beeing similar and beeing balanced, you can balance stuff by making it different. That in no way means that stuff should be op, beeing the best brawler/kiter in its class does not mean op, op means beeing a whole lot better at it and beeing to strong in general.Which the deimos with these changes is.


It's not at all. As was already pointed out, a few good tech 1 ships with decent enough alpha will still rip through it. Also, your claim that neuts are dead is pretty out of touch. Every ship I've fought in the past 2 few months that has a utility high and isn't a drone boat has had a neut or nos equipped. Heck, I just fought a Brutix pilot the other day that had one. I really don't know what makes you think neuts are dead. They aren't by a long shot, and they are the balance to any active armor repper.


A brutic with a medium neut is failfit, and you know that (or should at least), not that one medium neut would put any real preasssure on it.

And again, "a blob is a counter to it" is no argument.


Hurr durr titans werent op, if you dropped 2k alpha nados on them they get alphaed.


Fail fit eh? its not entirely hard to fit a med newt on a brutix shield or armor, not to mention dule newt cyclones, dule or triple newt prophecys, dule newt vexors, dule med newt navy vexor, duel med newt navy aurgors, and plently of other stuff.

And just because a second person or 50 isen't a legit counter its going to happen.

I admit the ships going to be quite powerful but there will be counters and as the ship gets more popular more counters will be made, thats how eve works.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#1851 - 2013-08-08 23:07:18 UTC
Quote:
Fail fit eh? its not entirely hard to fit a med newt on a brutix shield or armor, not to mention dule newt cyclones, dule or triple newt prophecys, dule newt vexors, dule med newt navy vexor, duel med newt navy aurgors, and plently of other stuff. And just so we are clear 2-4 people vs one is not a blob, people have friends and they are likely to bring at least some so your more than likely going to run into more newts, ewar, or dps than you can handel eventualy if not right off the bat.I admit the ships going to be quite powerful but there will be counters and as the ship gets more popular more counters will be made, thats how eve works.


Well, said, but I don't think you're going to get through to him. He seems to be convinced that the balance of Eve is dependent on all ships being leveled one a 1v1 playing field. There's not much else to say. Bottom line, he'll be unhappy until he can solo kill a Deimos with his favorite ship.

I'm reminded of an old quote...

"CCP, this is Scissors. Nerf rock. Paper is fine."
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#1852 - 2013-08-08 23:10:40 UTC
Romar Thel wrote:
Yes, "sadly" eagle is the slowest hac (one has to take that position). But it relies on its range rather than speed to play.
That is its role. Long range sniping.
Other ships dont have even half of its range.


I'll let you know when hitting at like 150km with medium rails (even after the "buff") is useful. Don't hold your breath- the prolonged lack of oxygen would end up killing you.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1853 - 2013-08-08 23:14:39 UTC
Devon Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Fail fit eh? its not entirely hard to fit a med newt on a brutix shield or armor, not to mention dule newt cyclones, dule or triple newt prophecys, dule newt vexors, dule med newt navy vexor, duel med newt navy aurgors, and plently of other stuff. And just so we are clear 2-4 people vs one is not a blob, people have friends and they are likely to bring at least some so your more than likely going to run into more newts, ewar, or dps than you can handel eventualy if not right off the bat.I admit the ships going to be quite powerful but there will be counters and as the ship gets more popular more counters will be made, thats how eve works.


Well, said, but I don't think you're going to get through to him. He seems to be convinced that the balance of Eve is dependent on all ships being leveled one a 1v1 playing field. There's not much else to say. Bottom line, he'll be unhappy until he can solo kill a Deimos with his favorite ship.

I'm reminded of an old quote...

"CCP, this is Scissors. Nerf rock. Paper is fine."


My favorit part was when he said you cant count BS newts because BSs always beat hacs so your dead either way, when its commen knowledge that Hacs are one of the best counters to BSs because they can so easily get under their guns with low sig high tank. Of course hacs being anti BS kinda grew out of style because T1 cruiser gangs and AF gangs do it for way cheeper.
Roseline Penshar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1854 - 2013-08-08 23:20:53 UTC
how about making ishtar bonus to heavy drone change to all drone except sentry
Romar Thel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1855 - 2013-08-08 23:22:39 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Romar Thel wrote:
Yes, "sadly" eagle is the slowest hac (one has to take that position). But it relies on its range rather than speed to play.
That is its role. Long range sniping.
Other ships dont have even half of its range.


I'll let you know when hitting at like 150km with medium rails (even after the "buff") is useful. Don't hold your breath- the prolonged lack of oxygen would end up killing you.



The fact that you dont like it doesnt mean that it's not a role and that someone wont use it successfully as a doctrine.
In the end.... latest gameplay makes you totally safe at 150kms.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1856 - 2013-08-09 04:13:24 UTC
Pesadel0 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
mm.. the claymore is nearly as fast as the eagle!!!! .. what does this tell you???


It tells us that the claymore needs more speed.


Why?


Well clearly if a caldari ship missiles and slow moving brick is being has fast as a minmatar fast/nimble guerilla ship it must be changed no?


Its a battlecruiser and a command ship to boot. It also has the airodynamics of a fridge.
Devon Weeks
Asteroid Mining Industries
Salt Mining Industrialists
#1857 - 2013-08-09 07:05:38 UTC
Quote:
I'll let you know when hitting at like 150km with medium rails (even after the "buff") is useful. Don't hold your breath- the prolonged lack of oxygen would end up killing you.


Wait...

Are you saying that no one wants a ship that can field a battleship tank and track small targets at 70+ km?

Did I miss a staff meeting?
raawe
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1858 - 2013-08-09 07:40:30 UTC
Is there any chance you can change Sacriledge missile velocity bonus to explosion velocity bonus? Would be better for brawling and put it more in line with gallente close range brawler that has double 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage?
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1859 - 2013-08-09 07:48:52 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Romar Thel wrote:
Yes, "sadly" eagle is the slowest hac (one has to take that position). But it relies on its range rather than speed to play.
That is its role. Long range sniping.
Other ships dont have even half of its range.


I'll let you know when hitting at like 150km with medium rails (even after the "buff") is useful. Don't hold your breath- the prolonged lack of oxygen would end up killing you.


ITT people not understanding that 150km sniping is essentially dead and that the Eagle looks to be an amazing 50-90 skirmisher with way more survivability than Tier 3s with the added bonus of not being immediately ****** if somebody gets a good warp in on you or like 5 bombers turn up.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#1860 - 2013-08-09 08:34:51 UTC
Ok, so did I miss the part where CCP Rise clarifies the actual ROLE of the HACs that justifies their T2 bonus (and skill requirement)?

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