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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1541 - 2013-08-06 12:20:11 UTC
Xequecal wrote:


Actually, it's because WH fights have a tendency to be fought at very close ranges, namely within 5km of a WH so you can GTFO whenever you want, warping to zero on a ratter, etc. That makes blasters exceptional and means the long range of pulse lasers isn't worth much. Also, Proteus cloaky subsystem is actually good, unlike Legion.


Range does matter sometimes in WH, but generally you are right. But don't tell me the slot layout is not making Prot a better ship. Also most dps legions in WH are HAM ones.

And for CCP Rise: Im Amarr! I want my ships slow and tanky! I don't need hi or med slot as I don't want't to fly jack of all trades ship. I want a heavy brawler and Sac needs a 6th slot for that role. Not for tank but for dps (BCS).
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1542 - 2013-08-06 12:23:41 UTC
Cap booster for running the active tank and medium neut that it'll be packing ;)
Yeh 5 slots sounds little low but it's still enough to pull a pretty solid tank and dps out.

Fitted with a 1600mm plate, 2 hardeners and 2 trimarks it's 56k EHP, which for a ship with a fairly small sig and high resists is going to be a tough nut to crack. Whilst like this the 2x BCUs, 6x HAM and 5x Medium drones can put out approaching 700dps without overheat. Whilst it hasn't got a Proteus-like tank, It's not exactly lacking.
With 1x BCU you still have 600dps of any damage type you choice, without relying on Cap with just under 70k ehp. I think you are just expecting a little too much here :/

PS - Legion's are awesome in Wormholes if you aren't expecting them to match the dps of a Proteus at 1km...
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1543 - 2013-08-06 12:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Xequecal wrote:


Actually, it's because WH fights have a tendency to be fought at very close ranges, namely within 5km of a WH so you can GTFO whenever you want, warping to zero on a ratter, etc. That makes blasters exceptional and means the long range of pulse lasers isn't worth much. Also, Proteus cloaky subsystem is actually good, unlike Legion.


Range does matter sometimes in WH, but generally you are right. But don't tell me the slot layout is not making Prot a better ship. Also most dps legions in WH are HAM ones.

And for CCP Rise: Im Amarr! I want my ships slow and tanky! I don't need hi or med slot as I don't want't to fly jack of all trades ship. I want a heavy brawler and Sac needs a 6th slot for that role. Not for tank but for dps (BCS).


[Sacrilege, Solo]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I
Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II


Valkyrie II x5

48K EHP, 393DPS heated AAR tank, 555/630 DPS with faction and medium drones, cap stable without injector and MWD, all before links or implants.

Your problem is?
Damar Auscent
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1544 - 2013-08-06 12:36:25 UTC
Can only really reply for Ishtar as it's the only 1 I've used. Am a little underwhelmed with the lack of bonus for light/medium drones considering this is meant to be a drone boat. It would be like, for example, taking the vagas bonus for damage and saying that's only for autocannons, doesn't make much sense. It would make more sense to have all drone bonus to tracking and optimal range and for those that need/want to use heavies can fit a nav computer to boost the speed.

Sorry if this has already been covered but gave up reading after page 20
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1545 - 2013-08-06 12:40:57 UTC
Damar Auscent wrote:
Can only really reply for Ishtar as it's the only 1 I've used. Am a little underwhelmed with the lack of bonus for light/medium drones considering this is meant to be a drone boat. It would be like, for example, taking the vagas bonus for damage and saying that's only for autocannons, doesn't make much sense. It would make more sense to have all drone bonus to tracking and optimal range and for those that need/want to use heavies can fit a nav computer to boost the speed.

Sorry if this has already been covered but gave up reading after page 20


The Vagas bonus is catered to Autocannons, as the Muninns is catered to Arties.

So its entirely equivalent.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1546 - 2013-08-06 12:46:32 UTC
Sure, it would be cool to get speed and tracking to light and mediums, but then again they don't really need that. Heavies do benefit from both greatly, and limiting sentry bonuses to 7.5% was really necessary for maintaining balance.

Ishtar is one of the best ships in game for a multitude of tasks, and yes, even tho I mourn for the loss of some versatility due to slot count nerf and 4 turret HPs, it's going to be just a tad stronger even for my niche solo/micro gang use. And PVE, it evolves from a brilliant serp/guristas PLEXer into easily the best possible serp/guristas plexer.

.
Damar Auscent
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1547 - 2013-08-06 12:46:44 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Damar Auscent wrote:
Can only really reply for Ishtar as it's the only 1 I've used. Am a little underwhelmed with the lack of bonus for light/medium drones considering this is meant to be a drone boat. It would be like, for example, taking the vagas bonus for damage and saying that's only for autocannons, doesn't make much sense. It would make more sense to have all drone bonus to tracking and optimal range and for those that need/want to use heavies can fit a nav computer to boost the speed.

Sorry if this has already been covered but gave up reading after page 20


The Vagas bonus is catered to Autocannons, as the Muninns is catered to Arties.

So its entirely equivalent.


sorry bad example on my part. That being said if you wanted to use arties you could and still benefit from the bonus whereas that is lost when using smaller drones for the Ishtar.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1548 - 2013-08-06 13:31:25 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:


[Sacrilege, Solo]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I
Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II


Valkyrie II x5

48K EHP, 393DPS heated AAR tank, 555/630 DPS with faction and medium drones, cap stable without injector and MWD, all before links or implants.

Your problem is?


Mixed tank? Lol. That is my comment to this fitting. As for the rest: Why do I need a cap booster (except for ridiculous mixed tank repairer)? Why can I only fit one BCS while other ships can fit 2/3 (Zealot) AND have an additional turret. 555 dps with one BCS? More of a EFT bug...
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1549 - 2013-08-06 13:39:57 UTC
Cause you dont balance around solo pvp, firstly it would be op with a extra low, secondly a extra mid allows remote sebos or remote eccm to counter damps/ecm, they can be used ofr dual webs or other usages that increase dps.

Also, that a valid setup, mixed tank isnt always the way to go but negating it because you think is bad isnt the way to go.

Lastly, cloaky legions dont count, if you take a look at serious pvp legions you will see that they mostly outperform the proteus by quite a bit, and again the biggest weakness of the cloaky proteus (bar of course its damage type) is that it only has 3 mids, making it eather extremly weak to neuts or reducing its tackle.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1550 - 2013-08-06 13:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:


[Sacrilege, Solo]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I
Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II


Valkyrie II x5

48K EHP, 393DPS heated AAR tank, 555/630 DPS with faction and medium drones, cap stable without injector and MWD, all before links or implants.

Your problem is?


Mixed tank? Lol. That is my comment to this fitting. As for the rest: Why do I need a cap booster (except for ridiculous mixed tank repairer)? Why can I only fit one BCS while other ships can fit 2/3 (Zealot) AND have an additional turret. 555 dps with one BCS? More of a EFT bug...


You realise Plate/Rep fits with AARs are super common.

And it has 2 damage mods, a rig and a BCS, all the people bitching about the Sac seem unaware that TII damage rigs are cheap and very effective.

Also the Injector is to give neuting resistance but you could equally go for ECCM/dual web/TD or a myriad of other options, you could also with some jiggling wedge a med nos on in that handy utility high so you even have neuting resistance in some form without an injector.

Arent these things useful.
ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1551 - 2013-08-06 14:16:19 UTC
Quote:
We did look closely at the MWD cap use bonus and in the end decided that there wasn't any replacement compelling enough to warrant a change.


I wholeheartedly agree, it clearly benefits with more cap when fitting an MWD than having tracking or even some kind of trolling repair bonus or literally anything else in the game other than a cap MWD bonus. Deimos, now and forever, a piece of crap.

Enjoy EvE!

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1552 - 2013-08-06 14:27:35 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:


[Sacrilege, Solo]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I
Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II


Valkyrie II x5

48K EHP, 393DPS heated AAR tank, 555/630 DPS with faction and medium drones, cap stable without injector and MWD, all before links or implants.

Your problem is?


Mixed tank? Lol. That is my comment to this fitting. As for the rest: Why do I need a cap booster (except for ridiculous mixed tank repairer)? Why can I only fit one BCS while other ships can fit 2/3 (Zealot) AND have an additional turret. 555 dps with one BCS? More of a EFT bug...



you notice the bay loading accelerator II? probably you know mechanics not half as much as you think !

imho ist a fit thats not too shaby.
and who says i may not fit a 1600plate i an active tank ? erver tried it? i wouldnt judge that fast.
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1553 - 2013-08-06 14:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarkelias Anophius
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
the sac still sucks, it either dosnt have enough tank or not enough dps.

move the utility high to an extra low.

love this ship, but you are not fixing it enough to make it worth flying


Exactly it badly needs 6th low slot. It doesn’t need 4th med slot.


How derp can you be.

You absolutely need 4 mids on the Sac.

Prop Mod
Scram
Web
Injector

The Sac is fine as is, utility high is handy and the tank and gank balance is really fantastic.


I have been posting in here for awhile and you are absolutely correct that the utility high and mids make the ship awesome. I would like to see it lose a launcher/high, get bonused to compensate, and gain a low, but it's going to work as is. Active fits just can't do much damage.

Edit: or maybe they don't do much damage because I don't have hac v. *shrug*
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#1554 - 2013-08-06 14:40:26 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Xequecal wrote:


Actually, it's because WH fights have a tendency to be fought at very close ranges, namely within 5km of a WH so you can GTFO whenever you want, warping to zero on a ratter, etc. That makes blasters exceptional and means the long range of pulse lasers isn't worth much. Also, Proteus cloaky subsystem is actually good, unlike Legion.


Range does matter sometimes in WH, but generally you are right. But don't tell me the slot layout is not making Prot a better ship. Also most dps legions in WH are HAM ones.

And for CCP Rise: Im Amarr! I want my ships slow and tanky! I don't need hi or med slot as I don't want't to fly jack of all trades ship. I want a heavy brawler and Sac needs a 6th slot for that role. Not for tank but for dps (BCS).


Ideally, yep, but people will just fit more tank to it.

Yaay!!!!
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1555 - 2013-08-06 14:44:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
RISE

I hope you are going to buff the speed of the eagle the Vaga goes about 60% quicker how can you justify this? along with it being the only one who gets 1 tiny damage bonus and no drones... it seems caldari aren't allowed any blaster-boats beyond frigate class.
Besides the token Moa

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1556 - 2013-08-06 15:10:49 UTC
Damar Auscent wrote:
Can only really reply for Ishtar as it's the only 1 I've used. Am a little underwhelmed with the lack of bonus for light/medium drones considering this is meant to be a drone boat. It would be like, for example, taking the vagas bonus for damage and saying that's only for autocannons, doesn't make much sense. It would make more sense to have all drone bonus to tracking and optimal range and for those that need/want to use heavies can fit a nav computer to boost the speed.

Sorry if this has already been covered but gave up reading after page 20


Agreed.

The turret/missile boats with be able to engage any target they want but with the restrictions being put on to the ishtar, it's like ccp doesn't want it to hit anything smaller than a BC.

I'm not sure how fast the heavy drones will go but i doubt they will be able to keep up with fast moving targets and apply their damage.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1557 - 2013-08-06 15:19:54 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Damar Auscent wrote:
Can only really reply for Ishtar as it's the only 1 I've used. Am a little underwhelmed with the lack of bonus for light/medium drones considering this is meant to be a drone boat. It would be like, for example, taking the vagas bonus for damage and saying that's only for autocannons, doesn't make much sense. It would make more sense to have all drone bonus to tracking and optimal range and for those that need/want to use heavies can fit a nav computer to boost the speed.

Sorry if this has already been covered but gave up reading after page 20


Agreed.

The turret/missile boats with be able to engage any target they want but with the restrictions being put on to the ishtar, it's like ccp doesn't want it to hit anything smaller than a BC.

I'm not sure how fast the heavy drones will go but i doubt they will be able to keep up with fast moving targets and apply their damage.


you musn't have seen how easy sentries have owned small ships at the ATXI .. most matches were sentry based

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1558 - 2013-08-06 15:36:18 UTC
Alright guys, updated the OP with the Deimos changes.

Removed cap use for MWD bonus
Added Armor Repair amount bonus
Gave back a lot of base hp for armor and structure
Removed small amount of base shield hp
Improved base cap recharge to compensate some for MWD cap use bonus loss

The MWD cap use bonus earned the Deimos 4.5 cap per second, the new Deimos has a base cap recharge that is now 2.1 cap per second stronger than the old Deimos. Obviously this means the recharge is worse when MWDing than before, but the new recharge is useful when not MWDing as well. By adding armor and structure hp along with the new rep bonus, there should be plenty of support for Armor brawlers at all scales as well as the new options for shields afforded by the extra mid and rail buff.

Thanks guys - looking forward to 1.1!

@ccp_rise
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1559 - 2013-08-06 15:38:41 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright guys, updated the OP with the Deimos changes.

Removed cap use for MWD bonus
Added Armor Repair amount bonus
Gave back a lot of base hp for armor and structure
Removed small amount of base shield hp
Improved base cap recharge to compensate some for MWD cap use bonus loss

The MWD cap use bonus earned the Deimos 4.5 cap per second, the new Deimos has a base cap recharge that is now 2.1 cap per second stronger than the old Deimos. Obviously this means the recharge is worse when MWDing than before, but the new recharge is useful when not MWDing as well. By adding armor and structure hp along with the new rep bonus, there should be plenty of support for Armor brawlers at all scales as well as the new options for shields afforded by the extra mid and rail buff.

Thanks guys - looking forward to 1.1!


And the Vagabond continues on the track towards uselessness.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1560 - 2013-08-06 15:39:53 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright guys, updated the OP with the Deimos changes.

Removed cap use for MWD bonus
Added Armor Repair amount bonus
Gave back a lot of base hp for armor and structure
Removed small amount of base shield hp
Improved base cap recharge to compensate some for MWD cap use bonus loss

The MWD cap use bonus earned the Deimos 4.5 cap per second, the new Deimos has a base cap recharge that is now 2.1 cap per second stronger than the old Deimos. Obviously this means the recharge is worse when MWDing than before, but the new recharge is useful when not MWDing as well. By adding armor and structure hp along with the new rep bonus, there should be plenty of support for Armor brawlers at all scales as well as the new options for shields afforded by the extra mid and rail buff.

Thanks guys - looking forward to 1.1!



What about the Vaga? What about the Munnin? Why do minmatar not get a missile HAC? What about the Sac?

Can we get answers to these please? Why do you only cater to gallente?