Player Features and Ideas Discussion

i will play devils advocate for a min

a utlity high does mean it can fit a neut which goes with its close range hamm idea.
also the drones can also be usefull as you can fit ecm drones or warriors to kill frigs.

now i do agree a 6th low would be great. but i feel that a utility is also usefull.

The more you remove non-standard bonuses that give some ships a unique flavor compared to their counterparts the harder it will be to convince "you guys" to add them in the future, and I don't necessarily see that as a good thing. Yes, combat ships should be about combat, but changing them so that they have no bonuses other than tank and spank would make EVE a bit duller.



The bonus functions as a capacitor amount bonus when HAC level x 5% > MWD capacitor amount penalty. This means that MWDs provide up to a 22% bonus to the deimos' capacitor amount which in addition to making it easier to fit and run said MWDs also allows the ship to run more active modules while making it less vulnerable to capacitor warfare tactics at the same time. If you're considering changing it based solely on thinking of it as a "cap use bonus" I would strongly suggest you reconsider doing so in light of both how it's not a "cap use bonus" per se and that it has wider applications.

I think that it would be nice to see the ship lose its "Diemost" appellation, but I'd rather it didn't lose the MWD bonus in doing so. However if that's the price that's required why not give it a 10% armor HP bonus instead of an overused repair bonus? It just dulls down the game and makes it less shiny when ship bonuses seem to devolve down to having a dozen different bonuses that are picked out by throwing darts at a board.

Tracking..Optimal.......Capacitor Use
Falloff......Damage.....Rate of Fire
Rep.........Resistance.Drone





Compare rapid launchers with rage ammo to heavy launchers with T1 ammo. You do more damage with better damage application for the cost of missiles going about 12.8% slower. Given that light rage missiles still push 8.4km/s that's not as bad as the percentage might sound.

I believe that that's the concern right there, the part where RLML fits can use standard or precision ammo to take out the primary tackling frigates before swapping to rage to take out everything else and have solid to great damage application on smaller targets even if it doesn't have the maximum damage potential of HML or HAM fits.

Of course I haven't used RLMLs since the third or fourth month I've been playing, and I'm not much for PvP so I could be mistaken there. That's just the most logical reasoning for his statements that I can think of.



To a large degree it doesn't, but it does benefit PvP in some "real" situations, and it does benefit PvE as well. IIRC it was in this topic or another that the developer posting stated that they have to balance the ships around PvE as well as PvP. Frankly though I see that as a reason to keep the MWD bonus and not replace it with something like a tanking bonus or a buffer bonus. The MWD bonus favors PvP and PvE fairly equally while tanking bonuses favor PvE and buffer bonuses favor PvP.

THIS is still considered to be the best Solution for the Sacrilege and i'm going to push this further up if needs be. This ship deserves a well defined Role.

Give all HACs an AB speed bonus and the majority of people will be happy and the ships will be specialized/unique.

The main issue with the vaga is that you can't even fit 425's which costs it 9km range and some dps

ok so how much pg is it short on?

I actually think that all of the advantages you cite for the vagabond are relatively weak, and you're strongly understating the strength of the RLM cerberus as a kiter when you make that comparison, Rise. Point-by-point:

1: The difference in speed and maneuverability between the vaga and the cerberus once you've actually fit them is smaller than it appears based on hull stats alone, since the cerberus can easily fit one or two nanos after fitting BCS, while the vaga needs its remaining lows for TEs and a damage control, so it can't readily fit additional speed mods. When you compare realistic kiting fits for the two ships, the cerberus is around 400 m/s slower while MWDing but has much better agility, which largely offsets the loss of raw speed. In addition, the cerb's superior projection further offsets its lower speed because it can start hurting things from much further away than the vaga can.

2: The utility high really isn't an advantage for the vaga at all, and the fact that it is required on the vaga but not the RLM cerb illustrates one of the latter's great strengths. The vaga needs a medium neut because if it gets scrammed by a frigate, it has no other options for getting away. The cerb can just smash the frigate to pieces with its main weapons, since they use frigate-sized ammo; it has a far more effective built-in frigate defence. The neut isn't a strength of the vaga; rather, the fact that it needs a neut reflects one of its biggest weaknesses.

3: Describing the vaga's damage projection as "slightly" lower than the cerb's is a rather strong understatement: with two damage mods on each (and the vaga having two TEs to boot, assuming it's fitting 220s and has barrage loaded), the cerberus starts outdamaging the vaga at 15 km. At 40 km (the edge of heated, skirmish-linked T2 point range after the 1.1 patch goes live), the cerberus is outdamaging the vaga by a factor of two. Phrases like "crushingly superior" seem more appropriate than "slight" under the circumstances.

4: You can fit an RLM cerberus with a full rack of launchers, a dual LSE/LASB tank, an MWD, two BCS, and two nanos with around 160 PG and 110 CPU to spare. On the vagabond, you don't even get enough grid to fit 220s, an LSE/LASB combo with an MWD, and a medium neut without needing a fitting implant.

Realistically, there's a lot of room for the vaga to be improved as a kiter before it comes close to the general capabilities of the RLM cerb. Something very similar happened with the RLM caracal and stabber in the first T1 cruiser buff: sure, the stabber was quicker than the RLM caracal and had more damage at point blank, but the speed difference became small once you started fitting nanos on the caracal, and the caracal's superior projection, greater array of midslot options, better tackle-killing ability, and much easier fitting made it into a far stronger kiting ship overall. As a result, no one flew the stabber. What you're doing with the vaga here is pretty much exactly what was done to the stabber - you're increasing its strength marginally while simultaneously introducing a massively superior alternative. Giving the vaga enough grid to fit a reasonable tank and 425s wouldn't make it overpowered, it'd just move it to a point where it'd be somewhat competitive with the new kid on the block.

:words:

Vega starts with 855MW of power grid with skills it is 1068.75
425mm autocannon II uses 154MW of power grid with skills 138.6
Vega has 5 turret hard points meaning power grid usage for T2 425mm autocannons is 693.
I see plenty of grid left.

yeah, plenty of grid to fit one MWD and nothing else...

not at work.