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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Randy Wray
Heinous Peinus
#1241 - 2013-08-01 20:58:26 UTC
Vagabond is the last ship that needs help in these announcements. With the new announcement that they'll buff shield boosters you'll be able to get 5-600 dps tank on a dread guristas large shield booster vagabond with blue pill. You can easily fit 220mm's, medium neut, large shield booster, medium cap booster and all the other stuff with a medium ACR. So basically it's like the current cap injected cynabal with a friggin 500 dps active tank that lasts for ages which is ridiculous on a kiting HAC.

One thing that has been mentioned earlier in the thread that rise really needs to look at though is the fact that AFs have 12 slots since the AF rebalance in 2011 while t1 frigates have 10. You'd expect with this rebalance for HACs to get a 2 slot advantage over the t1 cruisers which IMO would fix alot of the problems with them. Alot of them are in need of utility highs, people keep crying for a 5th mid on the vaga which IMHO would make it overpowered with the new changes. The muninn could use a 4th mid, the zealot could use a utility high for a neut to help it with its awfull anti-frig capabilities, same with the eagle and deimos after these changes. Ishtar should get a 6th low cause post 1.1 there's still not much incentive to fly it over the current awesome vexor navy issue. Sac should get a 6th low and Cerb should get a 6th med.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

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Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1242 - 2013-08-01 21:11:19 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:
Vagabond is the last ship that needs help in these announcements. With the new announcement that they'll buff shield boosters you'll be able to get 5-600 dps tank on a dread guristas large shield booster vagabond with blue pill. You can easily fit 220mm's, medium neut, large shield booster, medium cap booster and all the other stuff with a medium ACR. So basically it's like the current cap injected cynabal with a friggin 500 dps active tank that lasts for ages which is ridiculous on a kiting HAC.

One thing that has been mentioned earlier in the thread that rise really needs to look at though is the fact that AFs have 12 slots since the AF rebalance in 2011 while t1 frigates have 10. You'd expect with this rebalance for HACs to get a 2 slot advantage over the t1 cruisers which IMO would fix alot of the problems with them. Alot of them are in need of utility highs, people keep crying for a 5th mid on the vaga which IMHO would make it overpowered with the new changes. The muninn could use a 4th mid, the zealot could use a utility high for a neut to help it with its awfull anti-frig capabilities, same with the eagle and deimos after these changes. Ishtar should get a 6th low cause post 1.1 there's still not much incentive to fly it over the current awesome vexor navy issue. Sac should get a 6th low and Cerb should get a 6th med.


Thats great, the Vaga will be able to tank.

Oh wait, that completely wasn't the issue with the hull and its DPS will still be appalling.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1243 - 2013-08-01 21:26:36 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Round 3 when ? :D



One can hope but not sure this will ever happen.Diemost will keep the die faster crown and rails on it will be wasted isk compared to Thorax far cheaper and able to actually apply serious dmg while Deimost will keep a nice paper dmg impossible to achieve in game or in very little situations.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1244 - 2013-08-01 21:29:09 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Round 3 when ? :D



One can hope but not sure this will ever happen.Diemost will keep the die faster crown and rails on it will be wasted isk compared to Thorax far cheaper and able to actually apply serious dmg while Deimost will keep a nice paper dmg impossible to achieve in game or in very little situations.

I was looking forward to flying the Deimos after the balance pass, I will just spend my isk on a Exequror Navy Issue instead.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
nikar galvren
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1245 - 2013-08-01 21:40:50 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:


One thing that has been mentioned earlier in the thread that rise really needs to look at though is the fact that AFs have 12 slots since the AF rebalance in 2011 while t1 frigates have 10. You'd expect with this rebalance for HACs to get a 2 slot advantage over the t1 cruisers [...]

This has been mentioned so many times in both HAC threads... Can we get an official comment on why this fitting precedent is not being followed?
Romar Thel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1246 - 2013-08-01 21:47:24 UTC
Vagabond can use the new fitting with ASB well and without any skill boosting.

It still needs some more love to compete with Cynabal in buffer and also compete with low DPS and low range at least now after all these TE's nerfing.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1247 - 2013-08-01 21:59:54 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:
Vagabond is the last ship that needs help in these announcements. With the new announcement that they'll buff shield boosters you'll be able to get 5-600 dps tank on a dread guristas large shield booster vagabond with blue pill. You can easily fit 220mm's, medium neut, large shield booster, medium cap booster and all the other stuff with a medium ACR. So basically it's like the current cap injected cynabal with a friggin 500 dps active tank that lasts for ages which is ridiculous on a kiting HAC.

One thing that has been mentioned earlier in the thread that rise really needs to look at though is the fact that AFs have 12 slots since the AF rebalance in 2011 while t1 frigates have 10. You'd expect with this rebalance for HACs to get a 2 slot advantage over the t1 cruisers which IMO would fix alot of the problems with them. Alot of them are in need of utility highs, people keep crying for a 5th mid on the vaga which IMHO would make it overpowered with the new changes. The muninn could use a 4th mid, the zealot could use a utility high for a neut to help it with its awfull anti-frig capabilities, same with the eagle and deimos after these changes. Ishtar should get a 6th low cause post 1.1 there's still not much incentive to fly it over the current awesome vexor navy issue. Sac should get a 6th low and Cerb should get a 6th med.


Thats great, the Vaga will be able to tank.

Oh wait, that completely wasn't the issue with the hull and its DPS will still be appalling.


if (and thats a big if) the vaga gets a 5th mid , consider putting in a TC , they still give 30% moar falloff you know

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1248 - 2013-08-01 22:00:27 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Round 3 when ? :D



One can hope but not sure this will ever happen.Diemost will keep the die faster crown and rails on it will be wasted isk compared to Thorax far cheaper and able to actually apply serious dmg while Deimost will keep a nice paper dmg impossible to achieve in game or in very little situations.

I was looking forward to flying the Deimos after the balance pass, I will just spend my isk on a Exequror Navy Issue instead.



I'm sure in numbers they might as well succeed putting some big holes, but thing is doesn't matter having 1 bazillion dps on paper but apply only 10% of it because you don't have the tools helping you achieve this.

Now I'm pretty sure for high sec while shooting high sec targets, haulers and what not solo stuff yadaya this isn't much of a problem, you can perfectly align, 1mm meft 1mm right yadaya but in dynamic situations like fleets, forget it.

Just for the sake of numbers without any factual number let's say Dieimost dishes 700dps with rails on paper and Rax 450.
If I put 10 over 12 shots with rax on my target but only 4 or 5 over same 12 with Deimost, I'll be making exponential dmg with rax, efficiency/cost is no where comparable in between both, Rax wins hands down.

Then to add insult to injury, fit rails getting 15 tracking nerf on a ship without tracking bonus but instead a MWD one.
Of course we're all idiots and everyone knows how much better you hit targets while running your MWD, that actually increases your tracking....or not.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1249 - 2013-08-01 22:03:18 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:
Vagabond is the last ship that needs help in these announcements. With the new announcement that they'll buff shield boosters you'll be able to get 5-600 dps tank on a dread guristas large shield booster vagabond with blue pill. You can easily fit 220mm's, medium neut, large shield booster, medium cap booster and all the other stuff with a medium ACR. So basically it's like the current cap injected cynabal with a friggin 500 dps active tank that lasts for ages which is ridiculous on a kiting HAC.

One thing that has been mentioned earlier in the thread that rise really needs to look at though is the fact that AFs have 12 slots since the AF rebalance in 2011 while t1 frigates have 10. You'd expect with this rebalance for HACs to get a 2 slot advantage over the t1 cruisers which IMO would fix alot of the problems with them. Alot of them are in need of utility highs, people keep crying for a 5th mid on the vaga which IMHO would make it overpowered with the new changes. The muninn could use a 4th mid, the zealot could use a utility high for a neut to help it with its awfull anti-frig capabilities, same with the eagle and deimos after these changes. Ishtar should get a 6th low cause post 1.1 there's still not much incentive to fly it over the current awesome vexor navy issue. Sac should get a 6th low and Cerb should get a 6th med.


Thats great, the Vaga will be able to tank.

Oh wait, that completely wasn't the issue with the hull and its DPS will still be appalling.


if (and thats a big if) the vaga gets a 5th mid , consider putting in a TC , they still give 30% moar falloff you know


Stacked against 2 TEs the range gain is something like 5km, still not a very good solution.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1250 - 2013-08-01 22:08:34 UTC
yup a tc on top of tes will not solve poroblem plz no 5th mid
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#1251 - 2013-08-01 22:22:43 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:
Vagabond is the last ship that needs help in these announcements. With the new announcement that they'll buff shield boosters you'll be able to get 5-600 dps tank on a dread guristas large shield booster vagabond with blue pill. You can easily fit 220mm's, medium neut, large shield booster, medium cap booster and all the other stuff with a medium ACR. So basically it's like the current cap injected cynabal with a friggin 500 dps active tank that lasts for ages which is ridiculous on a kiting HAC.


CCP Fozzie:

"You are correct, that's a detail that I had missed and since the rep bonus increase from T2 to DG boosters is twice as much as the rep bonus increase from T2 to DB armor reps it probably means the DG/CN boosters need to get excluded from this change. Gonna do some more thinking and get back to you."

I wouldn't count on the dread gurista booster getting that buff. Regardless, I'm not that worried about the vaga being able to rep enough to stay alive, it's way more likely to just get straight up alphaed with it's mediocre EHP. Maybe it's speed and the MWD bonus will mitigate that enough, maybe it won't. I don't think I'll be taking the chance myself though.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1252 - 2013-08-01 23:26:18 UTC
I like it a lot when people say T1 ships are much more cost effective and then cries about T2 HAC being so flimsy they will be vaporised by alpha and won't be able to rep whereas they have 2 times the ehp of a T1 cruiser.

Some people really lives in a fantasy world, but darker.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1253 - 2013-08-01 23:41:20 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:
Vagabond is the last ship that needs help in these announcements. With the new announcement that they'll buff shield boosters you'll be able to get 5-600 dps tank on a dread guristas large shield booster vagabond with blue pill. You can easily fit 220mm's, medium neut, large shield booster, medium cap booster and all the other stuff with a medium ACR. So basically it's like the current cap injected cynabal with a friggin 500 dps active tank that lasts for ages which is ridiculous on a kiting HAC.


CCP Fozzie:

"You are correct, that's a detail that I had missed and since the rep bonus increase from T2 to DG boosters is twice as much as the rep bonus increase from T2 to DB armor reps it probably means the DG/CN boosters need to get excluded from this change. Gonna do some more thinking and get back to you."

I wouldn't count on the dread gurista booster getting that buff. Regardless, I'm not that worried about the vaga being able to rep enough to stay alive, it's way more likely to just get straight up alphaed with it's mediocre EHP. Maybe it's speed and the MWD bonus will mitigate that enough, maybe it won't. I don't think I'll be taking the chance myself though.

If the DG shield booster doesn't get that buff it will rep less per cycle than a plain Large Shield Booster II. He needs to look at the large/XL boosters individually because they don't follow the same pattern that small and medium do.
Thorvik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1254 - 2013-08-02 03:22:50 UTC
Meh.

The Vaga, as it's intended to fly, is dead. Now it's an expensive brawler that does crap DPS with a (woohoo) shield boost bonus.

Ah well. Not like we didn't try.

I'll be interested to see how many actually just get alpha'd off the field and/or how many people even will fly the thing any more.
Mirei Jun
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1255 - 2013-08-02 04:00:53 UTC
Another threadnought!

This balance pass certainly cleans up many, many issues -Good Job!

I am going to simply re-state what still remains:

Cerberus: The Kinetic missile bonus is outdated. Just give it a standard damage bonus. The Sac has it, and so should the Cerb.


Deimos: As stated many times, MWD bonus is all but useless. You could consider boosting its cap, much like the Sac, and give it a tracking bonus instead.

Ishtar: What? Why? Splitting up the bonus forces us to pay twice for what other ships get in one package -utter silliness. If you don't know what bonus to give it then just state WE DON'T KNOW YET (and do the same for the Deimos).
NaK'Lin
Seamen Force
#1256 - 2013-08-02 04:06:55 UTC
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

The other big problem with the Vaga is the Cynabal. That is not a problem we want to address by having an arms race between the two during this rebalance. The Cynabal needs a look and I'm sure when we get to pirate cruisers we can solve the problem.

I think you're doing great work overall. IMHO all the proposed changes are good so my only comment is: please don't ruin the Cynabal I trust you will manage to keep it a powerful ship, inline with its cost, that can be flow in a variety of ways -- armor, shield buffer, shield active, ac, arty, etc, and pretty please with a cherry on top don't nerf its speed. Thank you.


You KNOW pirate ships will be bad after they touch them, right?
They'll just ignore the fact you need to crosstrain, the fact you need to gather LP in NPC nullsec while being gankfood for everyone and the fact that pirate faction ships have always been set apart entirely from the rest of the ships.

I *hope* it won't become a flying turd, but I see a big likelihood it will, judging by all the rebalancing they did and how it makes everything taste.... the same. The current direction of development is not adding anything new to the congtent, and doing a general overhaul using the same base condiment for every dish, making everything taste roughly the same, with different shapes and colors.
Naomi Anthar
#1257 - 2013-08-02 04:17:19 UTC
awesome changes , tiercide or not - those ships must be somehow strong to justify price tag. +1
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1258 - 2013-08-02 05:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Akturous
Cargo hold on all the HACS to bring them up to the Sacs level please. You need the space for cap charges and there's no reason at all why the sac should have such an advantage over the others.

Vaga and Deimos particularly need attension.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#1259 - 2013-08-02 05:23:58 UTC
NaK'Lin wrote:
You KNOW pirate ships will be bad after they touch them, right?
They'll just ignore the fact you need to crosstrain, the fact you need to gather LP in NPC nullsec while being gankfood for everyone and the fact that pirate faction ships have always been set apart entirely from the rest of the ships.


Well, I wouldn't want to comment on most of them, as I for one hope that my lovely Vindi doesn't get touched at all, but as far as angel ships go, there were mentions of possibly changing falloff to tracking. They would retain their speed and agility, they just wouldn't have the range anymore. That definitely makes them weaker, but not bad.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1260 - 2013-08-02 06:04:21 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
NaK'Lin wrote:
You KNOW pirate ships will be bad after they touch them, right?
They'll just ignore the fact you need to crosstrain, the fact you need to gather LP in NPC nullsec while being gankfood for everyone and the fact that pirate faction ships have always been set apart entirely from the rest of the ships.


Well, I wouldn't want to comment on most of them, as I for one hope that my lovely Vindi doesn't get touched at all, but as far as angel ships go, there were mentions of possibly changing falloff to tracking. They would retain their speed and agility, they just wouldn't have the range anymore. That definitely makes them weaker, but not bad.


tracking + webbing strengh bonus will make it so that you will never be able to engage one alone evar without heavy support

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!