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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Fewell
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1201 - 2013-08-01 13:56:49 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
[

Double falloff bonus is actually what I suggested initially along with a raw DPS buff of around 50 DPS, I would even be happy to lose 1-2K EHP after LSEs applied to keep things well balanced.

I think the falloff doesn't need more dps, because it will allow for faction ammo instead of just barrage.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1202 - 2013-08-01 13:58:33 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Speed isn't OP, bad players just don't know how to counter it.

A Rapier or Arazu will ruin any fast kite ships day.

A single Keres will make a cynabal essentially worthless.

So would a tracking disrupter, optimal range scripts.

So you mean that unless a fleet can't kill a ship it's not OP ? Wow we have quite some margin for power then.

The thing is that when something have speed supremacy, it can choose its fights : take only those it can win and flee the others, but I hope I teach you nothing with that. But what happen if your almost unkillable ship become able to kill any other ship able to approach it ? Yes it become an OP thing exactly like a blaster would be in a rock/paper/cissor game.

EVE pvp require you to select your targets. If only a fleet can be a threat to your ship, don't expect it to have the firepower and resilience to kill everything on top of it.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1203 - 2013-08-01 14:19:13 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Speed isn't OP, bad players just don't know how to counter it.

A Rapier or Arazu will ruin any fast kite ships day.

A single Keres will make a cynabal essentially worthless.

So would a tracking disrupter, optimal range scripts.

So you mean that unless a fleet can't kill a ship it's not OP ? Wow we have quite some margin for power then.

The thing is that when something have speed supremacy, it can choose its fights : take only those it can win and flee the others, but I hope I teach you nothing with that. But what happen if your almost unkillable ship become able to kill any other ship able to approach it ? Yes it become an OP thing exactly like a blaster would be in a rock/paper/cissor game.

EVE pvp require you to select your targets. If only a fleet can be a threat to your ship, don't expect it to have the firepower and resilience to kill everything on top of it.


Yay, the Vaga can make sure it only fights frigates, because lets be honest, you aren't going to kill much else in a reasonable amount of time with 200 DPS.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1204 - 2013-08-01 14:24:26 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Yay, the Vaga can make sure it only fights frigates, because lets be honest, you aren't going to kill much else in a reasonable amount of time with 200 DPS.

Well here is your problem. So winning the fight is not good enough for you, you want to win it faster.

We can want the sun and the moon, but we can't just have everything "just because"

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Baren
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1205 - 2013-08-01 14:25:56 UTC
CCP is there any update yet
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1206 - 2013-08-01 14:26:14 UTC
Fewell wrote:

larges are pretty good with tengu links, implants and blue pills. This is what we'll be seeing a lot of.
I'd be so much happier with a less easily abused bonus like another falloff bonus.



Too bad we can't all afford to have a booster alt and a full crystal set.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1207 - 2013-08-01 14:29:09 UTC
unrelated note: could you boost the zealot's cargo hold a bit?

t1 omen's cargo: 400m3
t2 zealot's cargo: 240m3

t1 maller's cargo: 480m3
t2 sacrilege's cargo: 615m3

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1208 - 2013-08-01 14:34:08 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Yay, the Vaga can make sure it only fights frigates, because lets be honest, you aren't going to kill much else in a reasonable amount of time with 200 DPS.

Well here is your problem. So winning the fight is not good enough for you, you want to win it faster.

We can want the sun and the moon, but we can't just have everything "just because"


Thats a ridiculous argument. By that logic we should give every ship 1 DPS because they will all win the fight eventually.

The Vaga can't rely on its EHP to save it, or its active rep, it has to have DPS to end the fight relatively quickly a result.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1209 - 2013-08-01 14:37:07 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Thats a ridiculous argument. By that logic we should give every ship 1 DPS because they will all win the fight eventually.

The Vaga can't rely on its EHP to save it, or its active rep, it has to have DPS to end the fight relatively quickly a result.

There's fit on this thread showing Vaga able to sustain fair amount of punishment. In fact, I don't expect any T1 cruiser to be able to kill a Vaga reliably.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1210 - 2013-08-01 14:43:08 UTC
Baren wrote:
CCP is there any update yet


Looks like we're stuck with these, they started 3 new threads, one of which is for command ships. Seems that HACs are finished.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1211 - 2013-08-01 14:45:34 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Thats a ridiculous argument. By that logic we should give every ship 1 DPS because they will all win the fight eventually.

The Vaga can't rely on its EHP to save it, or its active rep, it has to have DPS to end the fight relatively quickly a result.

There's fit on this thread showing Vaga able to sustain fair amount of punishment. In fact, I don't expect any T1 cruiser to be able to kill a Vaga reliably.


Well, I should think not being it a HAC.

Every other HAC will kill it though as well as most BCs and up.

Were not asking for much, just for the Vaga to be brought up to spec for the Role it was designed, were not asking for it to do OVER 9000 DPS AT 250 KM WITH A 90% WEB AND GOES 80000000000KM/S, all we are asking is it to be able to apply around ~400 DPS at 25k. Its not like the Cerb, Zealot, Sac, Ishtar, Eagle etc are lacking in the DPS and projection areas any more after all.
Guru Gaspar
The Patriots
#1212 - 2013-08-01 14:58:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
SACRILEGE

We wanted to get rid of the cap recharge bonus, as it is both kind of dated and strange, and also doesn't do much for a ship that doesn't even use cap for its main weapon system. We played with a lot of options but ultimately settled on a Missile Velocity bonus which should be very helpful in projecting some of that HAM damage.


How about a HAM explosion radius bonus instead :)

Velocity bonus is strong but we already have the Cerberus if we want to be lame kiters.
Oh My Boobs
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1213 - 2013-08-01 14:58:47 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Oh My Boobs wrote:
-1 low +1 med for the vagabond
-1 low +1 med for the muninn

DONE


That will again, make the Vaga worse, as it relies on those lows for DPS and projection.


Well, yeah but atm for fitting freedom it is way more in needs of meds than lows.

I have the solutions guys, save your isk and fly a stabber. Cynabal is gonna be nerfed to the ground anyway.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1214 - 2013-08-01 15:04:59 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Well, I should think not being it a HAC.

Every other HAC will kill it though as well as most BCs and up.

Were not asking for much, just for the Vaga to be brought up to spec for the Role it was designed, were not asking for it to do OVER 9000 DPS AT 250 KM WITH A 90% WEB AND GOES 80000000000KM/S, all we are asking is it to be able to apply around ~400 DPS at 25k. Its not like the Cerb, Zealot, Sac, Ishtar, Eagle etc are lacking in the DPS and projection areas any more after all.

No HAC can catch it, and the Vaga can still kite. And considering signature and speed, no LR turret will hit a Vaga below 25km. Remember the Vaga is faster than an AF, and with the sig of a destroyer. This ship, like the Stabber, is more of a destroyer with oversized guns than anything else ; yet its damage and tank are better than any T1 cruisers.

So yes, you're not gonna brawl BC and HAC with this ship, because that would make it OP.

BTW, you forget two things with your 400dps at 25km : with AC, that mean 700dps at 2km ; and the others all have HUGE damage application problems.

Yes you are asking too much.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1215 - 2013-08-01 15:08:34 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

BTW, you forget two things with your 400dps at 25km : with AC, that mean 700dps at 2km ; and the others all have HUGE damage application problems.

Yes you are asking too much.


That would be true if you buffed the raw DPS, I'm talking about buffing the range specifically so we don't get the issue of the Vaga out brawling some of the other HACs.

But you seem to have some issue with there actually the Vagabond actually being viable so I'm not sure why I keep bothering to respond to you.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1216 - 2013-08-01 15:14:22 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

BTW, you forget two things with your 400dps at 25km : with AC, that mean 700dps at 2km ; and the others all have HUGE damage application problems.

Yes you are asking too much.


That would be true if you buffed the raw DPS, I'm talking about buffing the range specifically so we don't get the issue of the Vaga out brawling some of the other HACs.

But you seem to have some issue with there actually the Vagabond actually being viable so I'm not sure why I keep bothering to respond to you.

I have nothing against a second falloff bonus for example, eventhough I think that would pigeonhole the Vaga in a kiting role only. But some requests for it clearly were completely unreasonable, and asking for it to be able to fit top gun + top tank is one of them. EVE is a game of trade offs.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1217 - 2013-08-01 15:24:00 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

BTW, you forget two things with your 400dps at 25km : with AC, that mean 700dps at 2km ; and the others all have HUGE damage application problems.

Yes you are asking too much.


That would be true if you buffed the raw DPS, I'm talking about buffing the range specifically so we don't get the issue of the Vaga out brawling some of the other HACs.

But you seem to have some issue with there actually the Vagabond actually being viable so I'm not sure why I keep bothering to respond to you.

I have nothing against a second falloff bonus for example, eventhough I think that would pigeonhole the Vaga in a kiting role only. But some requests for it clearly were completely unreasonable, and asking for it to be able to fit top gun + top tank is one of them. EVE is a game of trade offs.


Im really unfussed by having to fit 220s, all I would literally want is 350-400 DPS at 20-25, which if you had a double falloff bonus would translate to around 480-500 DPS raw with faction, I would even happily lose a bit of EHP to get that.

I don't think thats particularly unreasonable.
mine mi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1218 - 2013-08-01 15:32:44 UTC
Why not put in the Deimos, Enyo's bonus?
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#1219 - 2013-08-01 16:46:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rynnik
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

BTW, you forget two things with your 400dps at 25km : with AC, that mean 700dps at 2km ; and the others all have HUGE damage application problems.

Yes you are asking too much.


That would be true if you buffed the raw DPS, I'm talking about buffing the range specifically so we don't get the issue of the Vaga out brawling some of the other HACs.

But you seem to have some issue with there actually the Vagabond actually being viable so I'm not sure why I keep bothering to respond to you.

I have nothing against a second falloff bonus for example, eventhough I think that would pigeonhole the Vaga in a kiting role only. But some requests for it clearly were completely unreasonable, and asking for it to be able to fit top gun + top tank is one of them. EVE is a game of trade offs.


Im really unfussed by having to fit 220s, all I would literally want is 350-400 DPS at 20-25, which if you had a double falloff bonus would translate to around 480-500 DPS raw with faction, I would even happily lose a bit of EHP to get that.

I don't think thats particularly unreasonable.


It is unreasonable because of the extreme speed. 350-400 DPS at 20-25 would not be a good combination with the rest of the hull. The trade off for being untouchable if flown correctly against unprepared opponents is low DPS at the 'safe' ranges. You want more DPS you have to go closer - that is the entire design philosophy of falloff weapon systems in EVE. You want to stay safe and at range you get lower DPS and a locked in damage type with Barrage.

:balance: yo
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#1220 - 2013-08-01 16:53:20 UTC
Rynnik wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

BTW, you forget two things with your 400dps at 25km : with AC, that mean 700dps at 2km ; and the others all have HUGE damage application problems.

Yes you are asking too much.


That would be true if you buffed the raw DPS, I'm talking about buffing the range specifically so we don't get the issue of the Vaga out brawling some of the other HACs.

But you seem to have some issue with there actually the Vagabond actually being viable so I'm not sure why I keep bothering to respond to you.

I have nothing against a second falloff bonus for example, eventhough I think that would pigeonhole the Vaga in a kiting role only. But some requests for it clearly were completely unreasonable, and asking for it to be able to fit top gun + top tank is one of them. EVE is a game of trade offs.


Im really unfussed by having to fit 220s, all I would literally want is 350-400 DPS at 20-25, which if you had a double falloff bonus would translate to around 480-500 DPS raw with faction, I would even happily lose a bit of EHP to get that.

I don't think thats particularly unreasonable.


It is unreasonable because of the extreme speed. 350-400 DPS at 20-25 would not be a good combination with the rest of the hull. The trade off for being untouchable if flown correctly against unprepared opponents is low DPS at the 'safe' ranges. You want more DPS you have to go closer - that is the entire design philosophy of falloff weapon systems in EVE. You want to stay safe and at range you get lower DPS and a locked in damage type with Barrage.

:balance: yo


How many times does it have to be said, BEING FAST ISNT BALANCE, a Badger Mk II could go 2.7K/s and it still wouldnt be a good PVP ship.

The Vaga needs DPS to capitalise on that speed, otherwise its fast, and thats all it has.