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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#601 - 2013-07-30 11:36:16 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

I dont get your point, yes a seonsor buff is nice, but it makes them in no way falcon resiliant.

I already mentioned that the cap now is fine which is nice, but as long as at 40km a rlml caracal easily outdamages a vgagabond and as long as most t1 cruisers are nearly as fast (or faster depending on the fit) the vaga (and cyna) will stay crap (for kiting).


Double wrong again. All HACs get Sensor Strength buff, making them more resistant to ECM

Nano stabber goes 3797 overloaded.
Nano vaga goes 3823 overloaded.

Does it hurt when you pull all those numbers out of your ass?


Vaga will stay crap for kiting.

You are not playing the same Eve Online as the rest of us, that much is clear.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#602 - 2013-07-30 11:36:48 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I don't have an ETA for Singularity unfortunately. We are having some trouble getting stuff moved there atm and we aren't sure when it will be resolved completely. Will be before 1.1 release of course, so hopefully theres enough time for us to react a bit to sisi testing before it goes live.


The soonest, the better Cool
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#603 - 2013-07-30 11:39:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I don't have an ETA for Singularity unfortunately. We are having some trouble getting stuff moved there atm and we aren't sure when it will be resolved completely. Will be before 1.1 release of course, so hopefully theres enough time for us to react a bit to sisi testing before it goes live.

My position on the Vagabond remains relatively unchanged. Its the second most popular HAC after Zealot currently, doing about as much damage per day in PVP as Maelstrom or Apocalypse or Maller or Omen or Cyclone. From there we are giving it significant buffs in this pass in the form of mitigation through the role bonus, added cap recharge, added electronics stats, and a new free bonus to shield boosting. I'm happy to concede that the Cynabal makes it seem like the Vaga should be better, but as I've said, this is a problem with the Cynabal not the Vaga. I think the Vaga is probably at the very bottom of the list of HACs that I would worry about.


And the fact that it recieved a huge nerf when you nerfed TEs, the fact that it now does an amazing 170 DPS at 25k with Faction or a fantastic 250DPS at 25 if you use barrage and restrict yourself to explosive damage is fine?
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#604 - 2013-07-30 11:40:25 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

The believe that the vaga is ok as it is right now and the though that the cynabal right now is a good ships clearly shows that you do not know very much of this game.

So you could not point it out, ok, like I thought.

And you can't just say that I'm wrong because I don't agree with you.
I never talked about the Cynabal, and it's pointless to do so, because it will be rebalanced as well, so it's a useless measure.

Like I said, the Vagabond is BY FAR the faster HAC of the lot. If you can fly a ship half decently, you will never get caught by any other HAC. You can fit a LASB to tank drones, and a TD to mitigate dps from any turret ship.

What you want is a ship that can kite 4-5km/s, have 5-600 dps out to point range and 50k EHP. Says quite a lot about who has a better understanding of balance. And i'll point it out to you; you have no clue bro.


You mentioned it pretty much in your first or second post in this thread, it doesnt matter if its the best hac for 1v1s, you will almost never fight 1v1, what matter is that on tq the vaga is rubbish.

And again, you seem to be unable to read, i want nearly 500dps at 20km, and 300dps at the edge of point range (40km), and i never mentioned 4-5km/s, nor 50k ehp, are you simple?
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#605 - 2013-07-30 11:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Hannott Thanos wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

I dont get your point, yes a seonsor buff is nice, but it makes them in no way falcon resiliant.

I already mentioned that the cap now is fine which is nice, but as long as at 40km a rlml caracal easily outdamages a vgagabond and as long as most t1 cruisers are nearly as fast (or faster depending on the fit) the vaga (and cyna) will stay crap (for kiting).


Double wrong again. All HACs get Sensor Strength buff, making them more resistant to ECM

Nano stabber goes 3797 overloaded.
Nano vaga goes 3823 overloaded.

Does it hurt when you pull all those numbers out of your ass?


Vaga will stay crap for kiting.

You are not playing the same Eve Online as the rest of us, that much is clear.


You are a ******, a bc sensor streghts isnt enough to counter a falcon, it does **** all (t3s have about 40 sensor strenght).

Also the vagabond goes 3.4km/s with heat unless you failfit it.
Urkhan Law
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#606 - 2013-07-30 11:48:39 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I think the Vaga is probably at the very bottom of the list of HACs that I would worry about.


How is the Munnin in that list?
I don't think I ever saw one in space.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#607 - 2013-07-30 11:49:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
CCP Rise wrote:
I don't have an ETA for Singularity unfortunately. We are having some trouble getting stuff moved there atm and we aren't sure when it will be resolved completely. Will be before 1.1 release of course, so hopefully theres enough time for us to react a bit to sisi testing before it goes live.

My position on the Vagabond remains relatively unchanged. Its the second most popular HAC after Zealot currently, doing about as much damage per day in PVP as Maelstrom or Apocalypse or Maller or Omen or Cyclone. From there we are giving it significant buffs in this pass in the form of mitigation through the role bonus, added cap recharge, added electronics stats, and a new free bonus to shield boosting. I'm happy to concede that the Cynabal makes it seem like the Vaga should be better, but as I've said, this is a problem with the Cynabal not the Vaga. I think the Vaga is probably at the very bottom of the list of HACs that I would worry about.



How is the popularity of a ship indicative of its balance?

Alot of people still fly rifters and we all know those are probably one of the worst frigs right now.

And the post above is valid too, I've never seen a munnin in space either... Does that mean it needs a huge massive buff?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#608 - 2013-07-30 11:52:19 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

I already mentioned that the cap now is fine which is nice, but as long as at 40km a rlml caracal easily outdamages a vgagabond and as long as most t1 cruisers are nearly as fast (or faster depending on the fit) the vaga (and cyna) will stay crap (for kiting).



You are totally disregarding the difference in tank, and no - RLM caracal is not a threat to a vaga. At least I don't hold point at 40km, I rarely hold point beyond 28km to be honest and most of the time I'm even within 23. The Caracal is without doubt wonderful, but its 200ish dps (270 with fury) is not a threat to a vaga's dps. Not at all. Add to it that your caracal runs dry before it chews through bigger tanks, whereas the vaga does not - assuming you need to pulse your mwd to maintain range and sparing some cap for the point.

Add to that that a normal Talos/800 Tornado/Oracle will blast you a new one within 4-5 volleys, whereas the vaga just isn't impressed at all. So even though they apply damage similiarly at 40km, they don't compare well on the defensive part.

Other ships might be better for kiting (scythe FI, osprey navy etc.) but they are real paperships aswell. And take a fleet scythe and put it on grid with a pulse-oracle. :|
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#609 - 2013-07-30 11:55:05 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

You are a ******, a bc sensor streghts isnt enough to counter a falcon, it does **** all (t3s have about 40 sensor strenght).

Also the vagabond goes 3.4km/s with heat unless you failfit it.

  • Countering a Falcon.

    • Just adding it to the insane list of things you want this ship to do.

    1 x Nano
    1 x 10MN Microwarpdrive, overloaded
    = 3823 m/s


    I would not be opposed to the Vaga doing that damage at that range, but never in a million years with that speed. And we already have a ship that fits the role, the Eagle.

    Sure, if you want the Vaga to go 1500 m/s, the we can talk that damage and projection

    while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

         _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

    }
    Frank Bean
    KarmaFleet
    Goonswarm Federation
    #610 - 2013-07-30 11:56:14 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:

    ISHTAR

    Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

    Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
    7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone speed and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
    10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

    Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
    5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
    7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity)


    Considering that 2 bonuses kinda overlap, I'd propose something modest as a change:

    Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
    10% bonus to Drone speed and hitpoints (was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
    10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

    Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
    5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
    7.5% bonus to Drone optimal range and tracking speed (was bonus to drone bay capacity)

    This would ensure that the bonuses that were previously there are applied anyway but also gives the ishtar's drones something the other drone ships (save the algos) lack: faster and more resilient drones.

    It's a small change, but would make the ishtar's primary damage apply better and last longer without going into gong territory.
    Danny John-Peter
    The Congregation
    RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
    #611 - 2013-07-30 11:56:30 UTC
    Hannott Thanos wrote:
    W0lf Crendraven wrote:

    You are a ******, a bc sensor streghts isnt enough to counter a falcon, it does **** all (t3s have about 40 sensor strenght).

    Also the vagabond goes 3.4km/s with heat unless you failfit it.

  • Countering a Falcon.

    • Just adding it to the insane list of things you want this ship to do.

    1 x Nano
    1 x 10MN Microwarpdrive, overloaded
    = 3823 m/s


    I would not be opposed to the Vaga doing that damage at that range, but never in a million years with that speed. And we already have a ship that fits the role, the Eagle.

    Sure, if you want the Vaga to go 1500 m/s, the we can talk that damage and projection


    You've never noticed how quickly T1 cruisers first then?
    Hannott Thanos
    Squadron 15
    #612 - 2013-07-30 11:58:22 UTC
    Danny John-Peter wrote:

    And the fact that it recieved a huge nerf when you nerfed TEs, the fact that it now does an amazing 170 DPS at 25k with Faction or a fantastic 250DPS at 25 if you use barrage and restrict yourself to explosive damage is fine?

    Awww, poor poor Minmatar, wants to do high dps, all damage types at all ranges with shortest range guns using shortest range ammo but cant do itSad

    Lasers, blasters and kinetic only bonuses would have a word with you.

    while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

         _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

    }
    W0lf Crendraven
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #613 - 2013-07-30 11:58:33 UTC
    And ani competent scythe pilot would rip the oracle a new one, what remains is that in any fleet situation or in any 1v many sitautions a caracal easily outdamages a vagabond, at 40km a vaga sits at well under 200dps with drones, the caracal does over 300 (both non heat), a cerb would do over 400.

    And while the vaga has better cap the cara has more ehp.
    James1122
    Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
    #614 - 2013-07-30 12:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: James1122
    @Rise

    Sorry if these have been answered already but i have a few questions around the changes

    Arrow Why has the deimos received such a big nerf to its armor amount ? I never really felt that it was something that was especially too strong.
    Arrow Is there any concern that the HAM cerb is a bit too strong. I think there was a fit for it on FH that prom posted which is doing 900dps at 40km (admitably its rage missiles but its still ~ 700 with navys)
    Arrow Is the cerb not now too fast ? I thought caldari were meant to be one of the slowest races that used missile range to compensate for their lack of mobility.

    EDIT:

    Arrow As good as these ships are they still feel slightly neutered by the abcs , mainly the fact that they are just as quick and have better damage projection. Is there any further plans to do another balance wave / review of the abcs ?

    <3 the new ishtar :)

    Other than that looks good. Look forward to test more thoroughly on SISI. Can only go so far with eft really....

    ....
    Hannott Thanos
    Squadron 15
    #615 - 2013-07-30 12:01:25 UTC
    Danny John-Peter wrote:

    You've never noticed how quickly T1 cruisers first then?

    Huh?

    I said the stabber goes 3797 m/s with 1 nano and overloaded mwd, which is slower that the Vaga.

    The Thorax is faster than the Deimos (150m/s) with the same, so the Vaga has an advantage that the other HACs do not.

    while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

         _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

    }
    Danny John-Peter
    The Congregation
    RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
    #616 - 2013-07-30 12:01:51 UTC
    Hannott Thanos wrote:
    Danny John-Peter wrote:

    And the fact that it recieved a huge nerf when you nerfed TEs, the fact that it now does an amazing 170 DPS at 25k with Faction or a fantastic 250DPS at 25 if you use barrage and restrict yourself to explosive damage is fine?

    Awww, poor poor Minmatar, wants to do high dps, all damage types at all ranges with shortest range guns using shortest range ammo but cant do itSad

    Lasers, blasters and kinetic only bonuses would have a word with you.


    God you are dim.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #617 - 2013-07-30 12:03:10 UTC
    W0lf Crendraven wrote:
    And ani competent scythe pilot would rip the oracle a new one, what remains is that in any fleet situation or in any 1v many sitautions a caracal easily outdamages a vagabond, at 40km a vaga sits at well under 200dps with drones, the caracal does over 300 (both non heat), a cerb would do over 400.

    And while the vaga has better cap the cara has more ehp.


    The vaga moves a lot faster...
    M1k3y Koontz
    House of Musashi
    Stay Feral
    #618 - 2013-07-30 12:04:53 UTC
    Voith wrote:
    Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
    Voith wrote:
    NinjaTurtle wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:


    can be reloaded over the course of a long fight.


    sixty second reload time. I don't think you have a very realistic idea of what occurs to an asb vagabond in that time period.

    It has a skilled pilot and realizes it will need to reload so it gets into a favorable position to do so instead of being a noob and acting surprised when the reload happens?

    there's no favorable position in which the Vagabond can reload its tank for 60s and still maintain tackle or damage. That's not skill related, that's basic PVP mechanic limits.

    You mean to tell me a close range skirmisher can't perma tank several hundred DPS and be one of the fastest ships in the game?


    Wow, CCP must suck at balance.


    17k EHP, 60 seconds, you tell ME how you plan to maintain tackle and not die for that 60 seconds.

    How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
    M1k3y Koontz
    House of Musashi
    Stay Feral
    #619 - 2013-07-30 12:06:08 UTC
    X Gallentius wrote:

    3. Comparing an ABC is equally moronic since they have completely different roles. But yes, if you put a HAC into the role of an ABC it's going to lose. Put an ABC into a HACs role and it will compare poorly as well.


    Muninn is an artillery platform.
    Tornado is used exclusively as an artillery platform.

    Eagle is a railgun platform.
    Naga is used as a railgun platform.

    Yes they have two totally different roles Roll

    How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
    W0lf Crendraven
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #620 - 2013-07-30 12:06:12 UTC
    Hannott Thanos wrote:
    W0lf Crendraven wrote:

    You are a ******, a bc sensor streghts isnt enough to counter a falcon, it does **** all (t3s have about 40 sensor strenght).

    Also the vagabond goes 3.4km/s with heat unless you failfit it.

  • Countering a Falcon.

    • Just adding it to the insane list of things you want this ship to do.

    1 x Nano
    1 x 10MN Microwarpdrive, overloaded
    = 3823 m/s


    I would not be opposed to the Vaga doing that damage at that range, but never in a million years with that speed. And we already have a ship that fits the role, the Eagle.

    Sure, if you want the Vaga to go 1500 m/s, the we can talk that damage and projection


    i never said it should do that, i just said it couldnt.

    Thats a nano on a vagabond=failfit.



    Also a scythe fleet already gets these numbers.