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New dev blog: Starbase happy fun time

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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#601 - 2011-11-08 02:33:01 UTC
Evanda Char wrote:
I must be missing something. There seems to be a slight adjustment in the amount of materials, but an extra step in producing the fuel which tends to mean more hauling. And without the faction tower fuel reduction, and the ability to drop fuel consumption by leaving grid/cpu unused, that means even more hauling... The maths is simpler once you've got the blocks but I have a tool for that.

What am I not seeing that has everyone happy?


Being able to just have one central stockpile of the raw materials hooked up to a factory line with the BPO. Combined with being able to fill an industrial ship with just fuel pellets to the brim and visit a few towers, filling them up to the brim without any tedious track of of which tower uses what amounts per hour. Just drag-n-drop until you run out of pellets and have to go back for more.

For anyone who fuels more then a handful of towers, the second part of that paragraph is where the joy will come from.
Pfaeron
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#602 - 2011-11-08 02:39:43 UTC
To build fuel pellets for 28 days for 25 large towers takes around 116 days.
Obviously that wont' work...

To get that down to a more reasonable number... building 28 days of fuel for 25 large towers in say.. 2 days?.. yeah. that more like the time investment I'd be interested in ... sounds better.. would require 58 production lines running in parallel.. you've got to be joking!

I am not thrilled. Why build time shouldn't be ...
right-click.. convert to pos-pellets.. done
like.. 0 time and does not require a damned factory @ all..

I don't understand why more inconvenience = fun?
Icarus Helia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#603 - 2011-11-08 02:42:43 UTC
Evanda Char wrote:
Entity wrote:
Evanda Char wrote:
I must be missing something. There seems to be a slight adjustment in the amount of materials, but an extra step in producing the fuel which tends to mean more hauling. And without the faction tower fuel reduction, and the ability to drop fuel consumption by leaving grid/cpu unused, that means even more hauling... The maths is simpler once you've got the blocks but I have a tool for that.

What am I not seeing that has everyone happy?


The fact you can be lazy now and have people that actually want to bother producing the fuel bother with that while you just buy the cubes off the market, I guess?


And if I don't want to be lazy I get to play "fun with the build queues I built my tower to get past in the first place"...?


the new onlining times aren't bad and it takes only a day to make fuel for 1 tower. if it costs you more - charge more.

for anyone with more than one or two towers this new system will be a godsend. As I've said before - don't pee in the cheerios just because you don't like them.

I have to fuel a tower in W-space which will be arguably more difficult than any highsec pos to fuel with this new system, and cant fathom how people are panicking this badly. the only fix is maybe separate LO/HW and proper fuel bonus for faction towers

Why you no care?
sukee tsayah
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#604 - 2011-11-08 02:45:36 UTC
I've never posted before in these forums, and may never again, but I still want to make my voice heard on behalf of many, many new players.

Let me preface this post with the fact that I'm someone whose EVE career consists of:

1) PVPing
2) training new players to PVP
3) producing POS fuel to make isk to PVP with

I have to ask a question of CCP: Why are you trying to push new players into high sec territory?

FACT: Most players who quit the game in their first two months have NOT spent much time outside of high sec.
FACT: Most players who find PVP learn that they really love to do it.

Let me explain to all of you how a new player's experience is like (in order); since most of you can't remember:

1) they join the game and find that many aspects of it are cool, and many aspects of it they don't care so much for
2) they realize that in order to participate in those aspects that they enjoy, they're going to need isk...and lots of it
3) they realize that they can either:

a) spend every minute of the day mission running/ratting in high sec to get the isk they need
b) get their isk through means that allow them to actually enjoy their time playing the game

You see what I'm trying to get at. 90% of the pilots that I recruit/train quickly realize that one of the best ways to make isk in lowsec/nullsec is to produce POS fuel through planetary interaction. WHY? Because it doesn't require multiple hours of work a day and it doesn't require months of training before they can get into it. It's also something they can do on their own.

Producing POS fuel for a newb does not amount to much isk. It actually amounts to not much but a stable and modest income that is usually just enough for them to get into some t1 cruisers and BCs, and continue to learn to enjoy the game. That usually leads to that player not quitting and sometimes becoming a long term EVE player (customer).

The steps that CCP has recently taken: the announcement of DUST (which actually sounds cool if it can be properly managed); the announcement of custom offices that HAVE to be anchored and can be attacked; and this latest announcement, which is nothing but a complete nerf on robotics and other POS fuel, is being interpreted (with good cause) by these new players as nothing but a direct, frontal attack on them. CCP is effectively telling new players that they should go back to high sec and learn to play there, and that there's very little room for them in lowsec/null sec.

As a player who really enjoys training new pilots and who enjoys watching new players become accomplished PVPers, I just had to pipe in and explain to you how much this screws over new players trying to learn and enjoy the game in lowsec/null sec.

For more experienced players, this is obviously not a big deal. We all either have so much isk or have so many different ways of making isk, that this change will barely impact our wallets. For those new players, it effectively ends their life outside of high sec for the foreseeable future...which usually leads them to quitting the game.

Well done CCP? Roll

signed,

disappointed sukee
Raid'En
#605 - 2011-11-08 02:52:45 UTC
Momoro wrote:

2. Do not include liquid ozone / heavy water in the blocks. Keep that separate for now due to economic issues)

i'm extremaly against this idea.
if you don't include everything, the block idea lose most if it's sense. the goal is to make things easier. if part of it is inside and part is not, it would be a hassle, maybe even more than before...

as i said before, i'm mostly for adding these at less than 100% value, and at a volume way smaller.
Icarus Helia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#606 - 2011-11-08 02:54:55 UTC
sukee tsayah wrote:
I've never posted before in these forums, and may never again, but I still want to make my voice heard on behalf of many, many new players.

Let me preface this post with the fact that I'm someone whose EVE career consists of:

1) PVPing
2) training new players to PVP
3) producing POS fuel to make isk to PVP with

I have to ask a question of CCP: Why are you trying to push new players into high sec territory?

FACT: Most players who quit the game in their first two months have NOT spent much time outside of high sec.
FACT: Most players who find PVP learn that they really love to do it.

Let me explain to all of you how a new player's experience is like (in order); since most of you can't remember:

1) they join the game and find that many aspects of it are cool, and many aspects of it they don't care so much for
2) they realize that in order to participate in those aspects that they enjoy, they're going to need isk...and lots of it
3) they realize that they can either:

a) spend every minute of the day mission running/ratting in high sec to get the isk they need
b) get their isk through means that allow them to actually enjoy their time playing the game

You see what I'm trying to get at. 90% of the pilots that I recruit/train quickly realize that one of the best ways to make isk in lowsec/nullsec is to produce POS fuel through planetary interaction. WHY? Because it doesn't require multiple hours of work a day and it doesn't require months of training before they can get into it. It's also something they can do on their own.

Producing POS fuel for a newb does not amount to much isk. It actually amounts to not much but a stable and modest income that is usually just enough for them to get into some t1 cruisers and BCs, and continue to learn to enjoy the game. That usually leads to that player not quitting and sometimes becoming a long term EVE player (customer).

The steps that CCP has recently taken: the announcement of DUST (which actually sounds cool if it can be properly managed); the announcement of custom offices that HAVE to be anchored and can be attacked; and this latest announcement, which is nothing but a complete nerf on robotics and other POS fuel, is being interpreted (with good cause) by these new players as nothing but a direct, frontal attack on them. CCP is effectively telling new players that they should go back to high sec and learn to play there, and that there's very little room for them in lowsec/null sec.

As a player who really enjoys training new pilots and who enjoys watching new players become accomplished PVPers, I just had to pipe in and explain to you how much this screws over new players trying to learn and enjoy the game in lowsec/null sec.

For more experienced players, this is obviously not a big deal. We all either have so much isk or have so many different ways of making isk, that this change will barely impact our wallets. For those new players, it effectively ends their life outside of high sec for the foreseeable future...which usually leads them to quitting the game.

Well done CCP? Roll

signed,

disappointed sukee


there are many better ways to make isk than pos fuel. station trading on an alt comes to mind, and so do low class wormholes. try to remember that until relatively recently, PI didn't exist, so nerfing it isn't really a big deal imo. Also, if your corp cant afford to give some noobs t1 cruisers as long as they use them responsibly, then i suggest you look for a better source of income as well....

Why you no care?
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#607 - 2011-11-08 02:55:33 UTC
Call me crazy, but couldn't you just change the tower Consumption timer on faction towers and Sov holding towers to reduce fuel cost?

So 1 hr base.

1 hr, 7m 30s for a tier 1 tower

1 hr 15m for a tier 2 tower

Sov bonus + 10 minutes.

I mean, towers all have random timers anyways, so it's not like the server syncs up timers to check the entire server at the same time. So this sort of change shouldn't have any impact on game performance if all your code has to recognize is what type of tower is it, and how much time is the consumption timer increased by.

Seems like a pretty easy solution to a problem you blew out of proportion.
sukee tsayah
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#608 - 2011-11-08 02:59:17 UTC
Icarus Helia wrote:

there are many better ways to make isk than pos fuel. station trading on an alt comes to mind, and so do low class wormholes. try to remember that until relatively recently, PI didn't exist, so nerfing it isn't really a big deal imo. Also, if your corp cant afford to give some noobs t1 cruisers as long as they use them responsibly, then i suggest you look for a better source of income as well....


Really? Cause you see new players in wormholes all the time! And yeah, newbs are so good at knowing EVE market trends too Roll

And yes, we give our newbs t1 cruisers. That's how we train them. But they quickly move to BCs if they continue flying with us.
Sara Nomiya
The Failed and Forgotten
Exxitium
#609 - 2011-11-08 03:02:43 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Approximate POS fuel costs per 30 days right now:

Amarr: 136 / 213 / 366
Caldari: 140 / 220 / 381
Gallente: 176 / 291 / 523
Minmatar: 139 / 217 / 375

Estimated costs after the fuel pellets get introduced:

Amarr: 87 / 171 / 341
Caldari: 90 / 178 / 354
Gallente: 122 / 241 / 480
Minmatar: 89 / 175 / 348



Cause this would be based on current market prices?

At the same time this changes we will have the PI swap around too so expect prices on those components to rise.

Also this will have a great effect on the LO and HW market too as their use will drop (and possibly price too)

I was quiet happy with the extra use of LO & HW if you had lots of stuff online ... it was like most other things in Eve ... if you wanted their extra benefits then there was a cost involved.

And Faction Towers still need to have some noticeable cost advantage for having forked out that extra hard earned isk !
No one's gonna be happy with their extra 1.5 bill investment now only meaning they don't have to feed them as much. Sure they may have a tad extra HPs tho with all the new higher DPS ships (and the proliferation of Caps) these days that still doesn't count for much when someone wants to remove ur Shield hehe

The main reason to buy a Faction POS Tower was the fuel cost savings... I'm sure they still get fed as often just maybe not as much each time.
TorTorden
Tors shibari party
#610 - 2011-11-08 03:04:41 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Call me crazy, but couldn't you just change the tower Consumption timer on faction towers and Sov holding towers to reduce fuel cost?

So 1 hr base.

1 hr, 7m 30s for a tier 1 tower

1 hr 15m for a tier 2 tower

Sov bonus + 10 minutes.

I mean, towers all have random timers anyways, so it's not like the server syncs up timers to check the entire server at the same time. So this sort of change shouldn't have any impact on game performance if all your code has to recognize is what type of tower is it, and how much time is the consumption timer increased by.

Seems like a pretty easy solution to a problem you blew out of proportion.


1
I mentioned why not earlier, CCP made pos's in a way that if they do this then the entire pos will run on that timer, moon miners will mine with a 1 hr 7 minute cycle, reactors will process at 1 hr 7 minutes etc etc.

2
the timers aren't random at all, they are in the api (state time I believe), it's just not visible anywhere else.
This timestamp is when the tower will run a cycle, consume x fuel, produce x moon mins, react x from silos etc etc.
So changing this timer will make the tower less productive at exactly same rate as the bonus.
Zircon Dasher
#611 - 2011-11-08 03:05:13 UTC
sukee tsayah wrote:
I've never posted before in these forums, and may never again, but I still want to make my voice heard on behalf of many, many new players.

Let me preface this post with the fact that I'm someone whose EVE career consists of:

1) PVPing
2) training new players to PVP
3) producing POS fuel to make isk to PVP with

I have to ask a question of CCP: Why are you trying to push new players into high sec territory?

FACT: Most players who quit the game in their first two months have NOT spent much time outside of high sec.
FACT: Most players who find PVP learn that they really love to do it.

Let me explain to all of you how a new player's experience is like (in order); since most of you can't remember:

1) they join the game and find that many aspects of it are cool, and many aspects of it they don't care so much for
2) they realize that in order to participate in those aspects that they enjoy, they're going to need isk...and lots of it
3) they realize that they can either:

a) spend every minute of the day mission running/ratting in high sec to get the isk they need
b) get their isk through means that allow them to actually enjoy their time playing the game

You see what I'm trying to get at. 90% of the pilots that I recruit/train quickly realize that one of the best ways to make isk in lowsec/nullsec is to produce POS fuel through planetary interaction. WHY? Because it doesn't require multiple hours of work a day and it doesn't require months of training before they can get into it. It's also something they can do on their own.

Producing POS fuel for a newb does not amount to much isk. It actually amounts to not much but a stable and modest income that is usually just enough for them to get into some t1 cruisers and BCs, and continue to learn to enjoy the game. That usually leads to that player not quitting and sometimes becoming a long term EVE player (customer).

The steps that CCP has recently taken: the announcement of DUST (which actually sounds cool if it can be properly managed); the announcement of custom offices that HAVE to be anchored and can be attacked; and this latest announcement, which is nothing but a complete nerf on robotics and other POS fuel, is being interpreted (with good cause) by these new players as nothing but a direct, frontal attack on them. CCP is effectively telling new players that they should go back to high sec and learn to play there, and that there's very little room for them in lowsec/null sec.

As a player who really enjoys training new pilots and who enjoys watching new players become accomplished PVPers, I just had to pipe in and explain to you how much this screws over new players trying to learn and enjoy the game in lowsec/null sec.

For more experienced players, this is obviously not a big deal. We all either have so much isk or have so many different ways of making isk, that this change will barely impact our wallets. For those new players, it effectively ends their life outside of high sec for the foreseeable future...which usually leads them to quitting the game.

Well done CCP? Roll

signed,

disappointed sukee


TLDR:

This expansion hurts children

CCP- Think of the children!

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Mary Mercer
Doomheim
#612 - 2011-11-08 03:06:21 UTC
Pfaeron wrote:
To build fuel pellets for 28 days for 25 large towers takes around 116 days.
Obviously that wont' work...

To get that down to a more reasonable number... building 28 days of fuel for 25 large towers in say.. 2 days?.. yeah. that more like the time investment I'd be interested in ... sounds better.. would require 58 production lines running in parallel.. you've got to be joking!

I am not thrilled. Why build time shouldn't be ...
right-click.. convert to pos-pellets.. done
like.. 0 time and does not require a damned factory @ all..

I don't understand why more inconvenience = fun?



Oh my goodness are you kidding me? The large POS is not intended to be a one man operation. While I realize it could be up to this point I highly disagree with the mind set that it was made to be run by one character.

You can build 24 blocks per hour (4 every 10 minutes = 6 cycles per hour = 24/h). That means that one builder running 1 line can fuel 6 large towers non-stop. 1 builder running 10 lines can handle 60 towers.

This of course assumes that you do not use an ammo assembly array. In which case you have a .75 time bonus and thus you can build 24 blocks in 45 minutes. In this case you build 32 blocks per hour or are capable of fueling 8 pos's per single line of building, or a full 10 lines can produce enough for 80 towers. This of course does not take into consideration your skills which should further reduce build time.

I think this stuff is building too fast as it is. This is a great opportunity to start another industry in Eve Online.

If you're going to complain about something, how about complaining about the size of the ammunition assembly array? The damn capacity on that thing is far too small to be reasonable for the mats it is expects to handle. Bump that thing up a ways. It's even too small for building a decent amount of ammunition at this point. Yeah coming out the stuff is compressed to hell but going in it just does not hold enough to be usable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLrpBLDWyCI&feature=related
Icarus Helia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#613 - 2011-11-08 03:07:10 UTC
sukee tsayah wrote:
Icarus Helia wrote:

there are many better ways to make isk than pos fuel. station trading on an alt comes to mind, and so do low class wormholes. try to remember that until relatively recently, PI didn't exist, so nerfing it isn't really a big deal imo. Also, if your corp cant afford to give some noobs t1 cruisers as long as they use them responsibly, then i suggest you look for a better source of income as well....


Really? Cause you see new players in wormholes all the time! And yeah, newbs are so good at knowing EVE market trends too Roll

And yes, we give our newbs t1 cruisers. That's how we train them. But they quickly move to BCs if they continue flying with us.


half decent drake can run class 1 wormholes with ease. harby too. probably cane,and i would hope myrm.

trading doesn't require market trend insight, setup cheap buy orders, sell it higher.

ratting is good isk in null - doable in drake.

just because your favorite isk source is getting very slightly nerfed doesn't mean it is the end of the world. people will still need robotics in probably the same amounts because the vast majority permanent of towers are large

Why you no care?
Zircon Dasher
#614 - 2011-11-08 03:09:13 UTC
Sara Nomiya wrote:
And Faction Towers still need to have some noticeable cost advantage for having forked out that extra hard earned isk !
No one's gonna be happy with their extra 1.5 bill investment now only meaning they don't have to feed them as much. Sure they may have a tad extra HPs tho with all the new higher DPS ships (and the proliferation of Caps) these days that still doesn't count for much when someone wants to remove ur Shield hehe

The main reason to buy a Faction POS Tower was the fuel cost savings... I'm sure they still get fed as often just maybe not as much each time.



Investments always go up in value amirite

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Sara Nomiya
The Failed and Forgotten
Exxitium
#615 - 2011-11-08 03:10:08 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Call me crazy, but couldn't you just change the tower Consumption timer on faction towers and Sov holding towers to reduce fuel cost?

So 1 hr base.

1 hr, 7m 30s for a tier 1 tower

1 hr 15m for a tier 2 tower

Sov bonus + 10 minutes.

I mean, towers all have random timers anyways, so it's not like the server syncs up timers to check the entire server at the same time. So this sort of change shouldn't have any impact on game performance if all your code has to recognize is what type of tower is it, and how much time is the consumption timer increased by.

Seems like a pretty easy solution to a problem you blew out of proportion.


Structures in Eve works on a 1 hour cycle so it would get messy trying to have a different cycle for calculating POS fuel as opposed to calculating production ... unless you want all ya reactions to run slower too ?!

The staggering of when each POS ticks over is based on when it was initially onlined and works better as the whole server node isn't all calculating everyone's POS updates at the same time.
It's much easier to change quantities per cycle than cycle length ... and as many said Eve players aren't afraid of bigger numbers if needed.
Elzon1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#616 - 2011-11-08 03:10:18 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The CPU and Power load will no longer have any impact on your fuel needs - all towers now need the same amount of fuel, regardless of configuration


SO, jump bridges no longer consume fuel? Logistics just got easier Twisted
TorTorden
Tors shibari party
#617 - 2011-11-08 03:10:32 UTC
Mary Mercer wrote:


Oh my goodness are you kidding me? The large POS is not intended to be a one man operation. While I realize it could be up to this point I highly disagree with the mind set that it was made to be run by one character.


You obviously havent been working a lot with pos's, no matter how large you are 99% of the time the pos networks gets dumped on one poor bastards head.
sukee tsayah
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#618 - 2011-11-08 03:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: sukee tsayah
Icarus Helia wrote:

just because your favorite isk source is getting very slightly nerfed doesn't mean it is the end of the world. people will still need robotics in probably the same amounts because the vast majority permanent of towers are large


No offense dude, but you don't know what you're talking about. This last change is the one that impacts new players the least. The COs change is really the one that does them in. I didn't comment before because it was just one or two instances of this. Now it's becoming a trend.

Oh and cmon, PI makes up maybe 5% of my income. I'm thinking of the new players that I train on a daily basis. You obviously forget what it was like when you were new to the game.
Mary Mercer
Doomheim
#619 - 2011-11-08 03:15:15 UTC
sukee tsayah wrote:
Icarus Helia wrote:

there are many better ways to make isk than pos fuel. station trading on an alt comes to mind, and so do low class wormholes. try to remember that until relatively recently, PI didn't exist, so nerfing it isn't really a big deal imo. Also, if your corp cant afford to give some noobs t1 cruisers as long as they use them responsibly, then i suggest you look for a better source of income as well....


Really? Cause you see new players in wormholes all the time! And yeah, newbs are so good at knowing EVE market trends too Roll

And yes, we give our newbs t1 cruisers. That's how we train them. But they quickly move to BCs if they continue flying with us.


Try getting some indi pilots in your corp and protect them rather than blowing them up. They would probably happily pull ores and build your BC's and BS's for you at a far reduced rate if you have any clue what you're when it comes to keeping them safe.

Not to mention, a mining op makes good bait for pvpers. That is if you can find a big enough fleet of them without ADHD to actually protect the fleet. most of them can't sit in the same system or on the same gate for more than 3 or 4 minutes.
sukee tsayah
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#620 - 2011-11-08 03:18:04 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:


TLDR:

This expansion hurts children

CCP- Think of the children!


I don't troll forums enough to know what TLDR means, but if you mean "this expansion hurts new players" then yes, yes it does. That's the whole point of my post.

Honestly, all you experienced and old players have no reason to hate this expansion. I get it. Your POSs are now cheaper to fuel. duh! I wouldn't expect you to hate it. Again, it's the new guys that are the ones that are hurt. Not you.