EVE General Discussion

Heh, that's not really a video game thing that you're describing; I've had a few clients at the company I'm at assume I was some ditzy secretary at initial meetings instead of the person managing their file before because it's unusual to see women in the field I'm in. You just can't let it get to you because there's tons of tiny little things here and there that are pretty different, and quite a large number of them are pretty damn great too, I don't think I've spent more than $100 total in bars/clubs for drinks since I turned 18 (Canadian here!) and I'm mid 20s now.

EVE is one of the more mature communities that I've seen in games, I also play DotA 2 and while being thick skinned I've heard people completely flip out to the point of incoherent screaming if they get called on their BS, and I've experienced similar stuff that you've written about. It's just uninspired trolling that children/terrible people run on with. And this may paint me as odd, I actually prefer to deal with trolls than white knights, as the former as readily apparent and easy to ignore/fix, while the latter quite often are creeps. If a woman can't deal with her own **** and you're "white knighting" her, chances are you're being strung along.

EVE needs more involved customization, as well as social/group activities that reward for short periods of play. It doesn't need to be ISK rewards; there's plenty of different avenues that could be implemented (unlocking new avatar stuff, story discovery, more mini-games like hacking, etc.)

In your day? This coming from the "change is good" feminist arguer?

It's not your day. Yes, I feel comfortable swearing in front of a female. That's equality for you.

Can't have your cake and eat it too. There are no "gentlemen" anymore, that's been pretty well beaten out of American society. I certainly am not a gentleman, and I will define how I please.

"We want equal treatment, and to be seen as no different!" "Oh, but can the deferential attitude stay?" Hell no.

Nailed it. That applies to pretty much everything. "Hey, shut up and web the guy already!" "Ok, ok, enough carebear jokes, do you want in on this Incursion fleet or not?"

HTFU. Everybody.

And there's the sad, frustrating side of sexism. If a male player causes trouble, it's just him that's bad news. If a female player causes trouble, it's *all* women are bad news.

Just look at the comments re "grrl gamers". We know that the majority of female characters in Eve are actually played by male players. And Mr Epeen pointed out that male players have been known to use the "I'm a girl, help me out" tactic to scam and game other characters. But everyone is still talking about these characters as if they're all played by women, and how it reflects badly on other female players. We've even got some debating if there are more female players who use that style of play compared to female players who play straight.

Sheesh.

We don't need to attract women to the game we need to stop driving them (us) away from it.

I tried to join a different incursion group and the FC wasn't comfortable with me bringing my battlecruiser even though I've run very successfully with a couple of different groups now. Some idiot on their ts3 goes "but she's a girl" and I just left the channel. Why? After that, even though it wasn't even me bringing up my gender, the FC would have lost face if he'd included me. So now I'll never run with TVP even once I get battleship and large guns trained up. The communities I run with, I got hassled and told I should just get guys to give me isk instead of playing the game, but the FCs dealt with that. Because they let me in while I'm training and handled the sexist talk appropriately, I'll run with them when I'm even more experienced and can contribute more. Simple. (Well, once CCP fixes the graphics problem that has me unable to play at all right now.)



RIFT failed from inexperience and lack of vision, mostly due to only having two factions in pvp and catering to the elitists by changing the game mechanics every month, then failing in a last-ditch effort to retain the casuals which drove away the semi-casuals. SWTOR failed from a combination of arrogance, paranoia which vilified the very people who loved the game enough to TELL THEM the Emperor had no clothes, and trying to shoehorn KOTOR3 into a half-assed online format that was in no way an MMO. They were so confident they'd be hired to do KOTOR3 they were thrown for a loop when they were told to do an MMO instead, and the stupidly re-used assets to "save" on the development cycle instead of evaluating from scratch what would be needed. Big companies make big, costly mistakes. I still think Lucasarts needed a loss for a tax sink or something though since they were given plenty of feedback - but oh wait, everyone who said something negative in criticism WANTED THE GAME TO FAIL! *facepalm*

Again, only two factions in pvp really sucks for the players, especially when the devs are handing out actual power imbalances to one side... in RIFT the dwarves had a huge advantage in pvp due to their tiny size and in SWTOR the devs handed out actual extra power to the Dark Side even in the design of the warzones.

*********

Women don't need eve dumbed down, or with pets added. There are plenty of female science fiction fans and even writers. There are plenty of women who love seeing ships explode. There are plenty of women who love to pvp. It's about the attitude.

Customizable paint colours for ships would be a nice plus though.

That's like saying "we need to eradicate racism". Pretty noble goal, but meaningless platitudes aren't going to do it. The real perpetrators, the ones you're really hoping to address, will never see this thread. Nor will they ever be interested in having an intellectual discussion. You just can't use logic to defeat someone who's so willfully ignorant of it.

It works two ways. As a guy, we know that we have a chance in a debate against other guys. But in any kind of altercation with a woman, we are naturally penalized. We (guys) are even raised to treat it this way. Don't hit a girl.

If it comes down to you and the authorities (the law, the legal system, the school system, the company HR department, the game managers), the female is 'expected' to receive the advantage. No authority system is willing to side against a woman without overwhelming, overshadowing evidence of guilt. The repercussions, politically, are simply too strong.

Disagree? Try to get custody of your child from a grossly negligent mother in the US legal systems. Unless you've got enough evidence to put her in jail (and even then, some still side with the mother for 'maternal matters'), your fighting against the 'natural order'. Even the lawyer will tell you that, AFTER you pay him and he loses the case for you.

As a guy, it's simply easier to avoid any situation that would put us in such an unfair advantage, whether that advantage is perceived or actual. Does this mean we blame women? Not usually, I suspect. It just means we're smart enough to recognize the potential danger and avoid it at all cost. The risk is far too great.



Sad that this even happens in video games. I'm all for having more women playing. But just like the new females working in combat zones in my beloved Corps, it's not that they aren't capable of handling the job that gets my hackles up. It's the potential abuse of their derived power from being the 'fairer sex' that makes me glad I got out when I could.

What drove me away was this: why play WoW 2, when I already play WoW?

Add that I bought 4 RIFT games for sis and I, and could only activate 2, yeah I wasn't going to stay around $100 less richer.

Then they allowed macros...

I play EvE for it's space theme. For it's crafting and trade options. It's not in WoW and to this extent. It's different and beautiful. And no macros.

Now somehow to get the bot problem out...



Or in WoW and allow this official sanctioned stuff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf-lbVTt__I

Which caused a riot in WoW, as it was at Blizzcon and Blizzard even tried to excuse it. Missing completely how Alliance feels about the point-blank Horde favoritism.

So yeah, either 2 + 1 neutral factions (like EQII has) or 3 warring factions, and devs keep your favoritism to yourself.

So we're blaming the (possibly long gone) designers of the tutorial quests now...

Did you read what you put down at all? You know, to make sure you weren't saying anything insane? You should have.

You just stereotyped all men who play this game, btw. Moreso than anyone in this thread has done to women. You didn't even imply, you outright stated that men aren't capable of knowing the difference between NPC banter and real people, and that men are apparently stupid enough for the 5 total lines of dialogue in which this is mentioned to effect our entire outlook on gender relations.

The only bigot here is you.

Oh, and this lunacy.



So, idealism over reality, is that right? Sorry, but reality will come back to slap you in the face, every time. That's what reality does.

You don't change people's minds by telling them how bad they are for something. Then, basic human psychology pops up and they say "Oh well", and then you are marked as an enemy.



I don't do that. I drive away anyone who wants to come into EVE and play the "tee hee" game instead. Because I don't play that game.

Obviously women are only here to play the "tee hee" game right?