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Feedback for Hacking/Archaeology feature from 27/5/13 onward

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Author
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#21 - 2013-05-27 22:59:41 UTC
In the site I did in Serpentis sov null, a Central Serpentis Sparking Node, there were NPCs waiting for me on the containers.

It would be nice if there was an easier way to tell which spew containers have been completed already.

UI scaling makes everything look out of place, I use 90% and everything is not in the right place.

I hope there are going to be bonuses like the t1 covops frigates +10 virus strength applied to other variants of ships, like covert ops ships, recon ships, and covert T3's. Maybe even blackops Twisted.

There's not much variation in items you can fit to your ship to change around your coherence/strength, perhaps you can add coherence/strength bonuses to the new scanning midslots? Or have different meta modules.
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
Together We Solo
#22 - 2013-05-27 23:27:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Manssell
Well since it looks like we're splitting feedback threads, I'll just say that on the other thread I noted this morning I was about 50% finishing the mini-game in lowsec. Now I just go to run another site and completed all three hacks. However, the only reason I was successful was because I tried out a T1 ship with a bonus and put the bonus rigs for hacking on. LVL 4 hacking skill. Had I been in my Covet Ops ship rigged for scan probe strength (which is how I will always end up doing exploration on TQ) I defiantly would have failed one (possibly two) without the bonuses.

The loot piñata was well, the loot piñata. There's really nothing more to say about it that hasn't been said other than it worked technically correct. It was hard to get the right zoom out to both read the containers and get a good look at how all of them drift away to maneuver. didn't get stuck this time on a structure. I was able to get about half the cans on the first tower and 1/2-2/3 the cans on the next two. My total income was about 6mil isk, which is about right for the absolute low end of TQ lowsec sites right now (I usually range from 5-25 mil sometimes even more). Hopefully I can try this out tomorrow in a system I know a few pirates live in and see how this mess works when you actually have to watch Dscan and are under pressure.

Edit: Removed snark.
Gaia Ma'chello
V.I.C.E.
#23 - 2013-05-27 23:43:40 UTC
During the mass test I had for the first time an opportunity to try the loot game with other people. Imm not sure, but I think at one time the spew cans turned from green to yellow without me clicking on one. It seemed to happen when someone else clicked on one.

Its sort of hard for multiple people to cooperate on looting these things if as soon as one person loots one, the other person is locked out.
Nicola Arman
Black-Star Enterprises
#24 - 2013-05-28 00:01:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicola Arman
The whole thing is luck based it seems. I've only done about 5 Relic Sites though. Not very exciting loot yet. The spew cans seem to change color based on distance from what I've been able to see. I don't like that you can't add them to the Overview. I think that is a very bad idea. And where does that tractor beam come from exactly? It doesn't exist normally.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#25 - 2013-05-28 00:13:52 UTC
Copied my last post from the other thread incase it gets overlooked:

Just did 3 low sec serpentis sites. The hacking difficulty was much easier then in the sites that i did yesterday. Only lost one container. The loot was underwhelming still. 2 decryptors from a data site, worth 11m. 7.5m and 10.5m from two relic sites.

As i used a cargo scanner beforehand i can tell you that there was quite a bit of a discrepancy between what is in the sites and what i managed to get eventualy. 2 decryptors of i think 6 or 7. There was a bpc and two skillbooks in the last relic site (Decayed Serpentis Quarry) of which i got none. With 8 containers and the loot spew the chance to get the bpc is what like 30%? That just doesn't cut it. In the old site when there spawned a bpc in one of the cans you got it. End of story.

But as i wrote in one of my earlier posts i don't even know how this can be balanced. If you put 3 bpc's in to give me as solo a reasonable chance to get one then a group of explorers can easily exploit the system and farm goodies en masse since for them it's not based on luck to get one but a certainty to get all. (or almost all, they can still lose a container to the hacking)

edit: thinking about it i actualy know how it can be balanced to be fair: by scaling the loot and the number of cans according to the number of players on grid. Which then defeats the whole purpose of why the loot spew was invented in the first place.

Added comment:

My suspicion that the new mechanic is exploitable is just a suspicion at this point. I know that it could somewhat balance out because when you're alone you don't have to share the loot. But someone should crunch the numbers because i think the discrepancy on luck dependancy is there between solo and group exploration. Especialy with rare and expensive items like the new pos bpc's the numbers could swing in favor of group exploration since a streak of bad luck is way less likely (not grabbing the right can when expensive bpc has spawned on the site).

On another note:

- readability of the hacking game is suboptimal. It's hard to distinguish the grey nodes from the background no matter the settings for the window

- loot spew sometimes feels laggy (hover mouse over icon but it doesn't show the name immediately)

- when two cans are close at each other it gets tricky to click the correct one. sometimes its not possible to click the right one even when the mouse is on top of it

- icons still too small and the mechanic too twitchy. maybe add an option to make the cans "magnetic" to the mouse pointer? That should help if ther's lag or if ppl use a trackpad or simply have bad motoric skills
Toddfish
Multiplex Gaming
The Bastion
#26 - 2013-05-28 01:32:07 UTC
Spent some time scanning and running data/relic sites in Null sec (typically -0.2 true sec). Scanning is quicker (the new mid-slot scanning mods are a nice addition). I did cargo scans on the cans prior to hacking attempts and the total loot seemed to be on-par with nice rolls on TQ now. Successful hacking (and collection of the right spew containers) lead to similar payouts as I currently get on TQ. The faction POS mod BPC was a nice touch too.

While I’m not a big fan of the loot spew, I’ve started to adapt and get better at the process. The reduced number of cans is nice, but clicking on the hard to see icons is still a problem. That said, I’m still having issues with a few collideable objects (the black monolith in the Ruined Guristas Crystal Quarry stood-out to me). Trying to collect cans is hard enough, but not understanding why your ship is bouncing off an object (knowing the cans are soon to disappear) is rage educing.

Today the biggest change I’ve notices is in the difficulty of the hacking mini-game. Running with lvl5 hacking/archeology skills in a Heron (+10 virus strength), T2 mods, T1 rigs for hacking/archeology… my virus strength is 135/40. Despite this, I was only ~50% successful at hacking attempts on the harder containers (Ruins, Remains, Mainframes, etc.). The other cans (Rubble, Com Towers, etc.) seemed like a decent difficulty, but maybe I was just getting lucky with the number of roadblocks I ran into.

Most of my failed attempts were at the result of running into one (or more) virus suppressor. Trying to progress with the reduced strength didn’t seem to work, but fighting them drained most of my coherence. Without finding a utility to boost coherence there was little chance to get through the various firewalls/anti-virus blocks… let alone the core at the end. I wouldn’t have had as much of a problem, but many of the firewalls/anti-virus had coherence of 60-90 each and took a while to get through them.

I can understand trying to have a progression with difficulty (especially by the time you reach the hardest cans in Null sec), but I think the failure rate is too high… especially for a fully-trained character using a specialized ship. Things should be a challenge, but with only having two attempts at hacking a container, there is a fairly high chance of complete failure. The failure also happens with the more difficult cans (which happen to contain the valuable loot), so greatly reducing the desirability and profitability of this profession.

Note: Every time I had a failed attempt a rat spawned. It was mentioned previously that this mechanism was going to change… is that still the plan?

Suggestions:
+ Implement the described mechanism for pre-loading various utilities to improve the chances during difficult hacking attempts. Until this is implemented, please consider decreasing the strength of the various supresors/firewalls/anti-virus. I feel a pilot with max skills, in a properly fitted ship, should fail one attempt from time-to-time, but rarely have a can explode.
+ Add additional mods to increase virus coherence/strength (similar to the new scanning mods).
+ Add additional ship bonuses to virus abilities… it seems weird having to trade-out of a T2/T3 scanning/combat ship for a T1 frig to successfully hack a can.
+ Increase the number of failure attempts possible (maybe even remove the exploding cans) to encourage people to progress towards more difficult sites. If someone decides they want to spend an hour hacking a can (due to skills/fitting/difficulty, the possible loot, etc.) they should be able to.




Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#27 - 2013-05-28 01:46:54 UTC
Toddfish sounds like you ran into the same problem i did on sunday with a nullsec guristas site. Lost 3 containers there, managed two others only on the second attempt. Found the minigame obscenely hard on some tries. Also used a skilled out char, rigs, t2 analyzers.

Another thing, i noticed today that after failing a container on the first try and then hacking it there was still loot in it afterwards (i guess deducted from the full loot as a punishment for failing). Is this intentional or a bug?
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
Together We Solo
#28 - 2013-05-28 01:58:36 UTC
Toddfish wrote:

+ Increase the number of failure attempts possible (maybe even remove the exploding cans) to encourage people to progress towards more difficult sites. If someone decides they want to spend an hour hacking a can (due to skills/fitting/difficulty, the possible loot, etc.) they should be able to.





Great idea! Right now a lower skilled player can still get the same loot as a higher skilled one, it just takes them longer to do it. The new mingame with the 2 strikes boom mechanic seem like CCP just stepped in front of a bunch of part time and newer explorers and shouted "not perfect skills… NO LOOT FOR YOU!"
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
#29 - 2013-05-28 03:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Derath Ellecon
Ok I've gotta say I'm completely confused.

I just tried for the first time and found a "crumbling Serpentis Excavation" relic site.

I warped in and have no idea what to do.

There is a bunch of stuff here

Abandonded drills
Broken engines
Depleted station battery
Debris

I have targeted everything and tried to activate my relic analyzer, only to get the message that it cannot be used on this object.

So what am I supposed to be analyzing? Is it something hidden on the overview?

[edit]
Nevermind. Even though I had chosen the default "all" it did not have everything checked.
Jin Rot'hani
Jin-Tonic
#30 - 2013-05-28 08:21:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jin Rot'hani
As i mentioned in the last thread, it was a problem for me clicking like 50 nodes for each container because of rsi (Repetitive-Strain-Injury).
so i was very pleased to see that you got rid of them and created a much smaller layout (because you care about the health of your players, right ? Blink).

Well till yesterday when i tried it again after 1-2 weeks and had to realize you went back to the click 50 - mostly empty - nodes layout to get cookie or be doomed. it lead for me to not being able to continue exploration after the 2nd site because it simply did hurt too much Sad
I don't understand why you did that, there is no way to even guess where to click to reach anything till you click it and then it's pure luck if it's a trap, a cookie or one of ~40 empty useless nodes.

[edit]
Why not clicking a desired destination and the virus starts working it's way there - hacking one empty node after another - till it reaches a node which requires user interaction. that way you can leave the interface size how it is now. you could even slow down this hacking visually if a suppressor is active for example.

Maybe that's just another barrier to get the goodies or even the price for easier and faster scanning. the loot in general looked good to me. some sites where crap as usual and then there is the random faction loot to make your day and come back tomorrow.

But i don't see bringing people together to do exploration except for DED sites where you might need help killing stuff. Exploration is what i do if there simply is nobody else around to do something else, so i get in my frig and start looking for profession sites. Forcing me to partner up even with strangers to get all the loot seems strange to me but maybe it will work out, maybe not.

Looting the stuff takes some practice but as far as i understand it works so that you click any green container, all others become yellow. if loot finished the yellow ones become green again.

  • green=loot 1 of them now
  • yellow=loot in progress wait till green
  • white=out of range (oh no my cookies floating away, doubleclick to approach)
  • blinking=container is lost in space soon(tm)


My hopes are still very high on this expansion as it looks really great so far, so keep on your good work.
Tryaha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-05-28 09:34:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tryaha
Last night (27th) i did 3 Relic sites with a tengu with 3 T1 "medium emission scope hardener" rigs, a T2 analyser and perfect skills.

I was able to hack 40-50% of the cans and loot about 5 cans each time (out of 10?) This was on my own without a alt helping to scoop cans.

The loot was about 15m for the 3 sites total, currently this would be around 100m on avarage per site. (mostly because of the intact armor plates dropping) I think i'll bring a cargo scanner tonight to see what the potential drop is, because the loot at the moment is worth alot less then the current situation on TQ.

As others allready mentioned, it would be nice to see a couple of points changed;

- I would like to see more ways to boost virus coherence and strenght, and more ships need build in bonusses,T1 frigs are a no-go for 0.0
- Loot pinata sucks, just the cans opening after the hack would be more reasonable in my opinion.
- I liked the old sites with their NPC's, it required people to think about a nice balance between tank, DPS and hacking gear, why not just keep the old sites and put the hacking minigame on it's cans?
- The loot needs to be massivly boosted, atm it looks like it's down to 10m from 100m per site on avarage.
- Make the cans appear on overview.

I do like the new hacking mechanics in general, they just need some tweaking. Also it would be nice to have a (more detailed) devblog with some details about the new mods, changed rigs (did their calibration change?), change hardwirings and other stuff that is being changed in relation to these sites.

Also, why not make players able to tractor the loot cans? this gives players a good reason to bring a noctis alt for instance or fit some tractor beams on their ships. The small tractor beam that is being used now doesn't make sense (we don't see it anywhere else and it's not on the ships fit)
CCP Bayesian
#32 - 2013-05-28 10:08:39 UTC
Tryaha wrote:
I do like the new hacking mechanics in general, they just need some tweaking. Also it would be nice to have a (more detailed) devblog with some details about the new mods, changed rigs (did their calibration change?), change hardwirings and other stuff that is being changed in relation to these sites.

Also, why not make players able to tractor the loot cans? this gives players a good reason to bring a noctis alt for instance or fit some tractor beams on their ships. The small tractor beam that is being used now doesn't make sense (we don't see it anywhere else and it's not on the ships fit)


You can tractor the loot cans.

On the devblog front the numbers are changing at the moment as we work on balancing things. I'll pass on to the guys involved in that work the request for a devblog outlining the changes.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

CCP Bayesian
#33 - 2013-05-28 10:39:11 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Bayesian
For the people saying the 'loot pinata sucks' and the like could you vocalise the problems you have with it?

So far I've collated:
- It's not the way EVE has previously worked.
- Collision is a pain, both with the size of the Data Sites and the positioning of some containers.
- Picking can be difficult if you're not using a mouse.
- Picking can be difficult if you're blinded by the site contents.
- Loot haul seems low in comparison with how it was before.
- Losing cans feels bad, particular after the effort of having to hack the container. This makes it feel like a penalty.
- Not knowing what is any particular can so it feels bad not being able to make good choices.
- The 'bad loot' is far too bulky so it is excessively penalising as you have to stop and sort it out.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
#34 - 2013-05-28 10:45:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
CCP Bayesian wrote:
For the people saying the 'loot pinata sucks' and the like could you vocalise the problems you have with it?

So far I've collated:
- It's not the way EVE has previously worked.
- Collision is a pain, both with the size of the Data Sites and the positioning of some containers.
- Picking can be difficult if you're not using a mouse.
- Picking can be difficult if you're blinded by the site contents.
- Loot haul seems low in comparison with how it was before.
- Losing cans feels bad, particular after the effort of having to hack the container. This makes it feel like a penalty.
- Not knowing what is any particular can so it feels bad not being able to make good choices.

With the hacking now harder, after succeeding the hack then grabbing the cans only to get a few worthless items ( last time I was able to test) felt terrible, like despite succeeding at the hard part you still fail.
Edit: I forgot that I was able to do some testing with a cargo scanner in which greatly increased the chances of catching the correct piñata cans.
But on that note I don't think I agree with the ability to cargo scan these sites, it would be like Indiana Jones walking up to a ancient ruin and saying to himself "I don't know these ruins only have a couple gold coins, I will pass"

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-05-28 11:02:34 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
For the people saying the 'loot pinata sucks' and the like could you vocalise the problems you have with it?

So far I've collated:
- It's not the way EVE has previously worked.
- Collision is a pain, both with the size of the Data Sites and the positioning of some containers.
- Picking can be difficult if you're not using a mouse.
- Picking can be difficult if you're blinded by the site contents.
- Loot haul seems low in comparison with how it was before.
- Losing cans feels bad, particular after the effort of having to hack the container. This makes it feel like a penalty.
- Not knowing what is any particular can so it feels bad not being able to make good choices.
- The 'bad loot' is far too bulky so it is excessively penalising as you have to stop and sort it out.


As an encouragement for co-op, it falls short, who wants to be the guy who sits there and waits while you do the fun parts, so he can run around like a maniac trying to grab sweets?
Tryaha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-05-28 11:15:33 UTC
About the loot pinata sucking, it's hard to explain why i feel this way, but i will try.

I think it is mostly the idea that there is loot you could get, but are not getting because you cannot loot the cans in time, if there is a structure in the way preventing you to get to the cans, that is extra frustrating. Also, if half your hacks fail and you fail to loot more then 50% of then cans, your efforts seem kinda useless.

I also feel that the way it is done is another extra set of stuff in EVE. I like consistency as much as possible, but with the loot pinata there is a new type of can being dropped (spewed) in a way we didn't see before. Also there is some mystery tractor beam picking the cans up. On top of this it ads new mystery brackets around these cans that are completely new too.

Why not keep it simple and just have the old sites with their 5-6 cans and make these hackable without the loot pinata. This way you do have to think about your ship fitting because of the rats and there is still some thinking involved doing the actual hacking.

What is exactly the idea behind the loot pinata? to make these sites doable for multiple people and have the rewards scale with the amount of people actually picking the cans up?
Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-05-28 11:19:09 UTC
I'm gonna add onto that last post of mine.

When I go scanning on TQ right now, and I find Hacking, Archaelogy, and Salvaging sites, I'll run them myself. I don't really need help, and it's a nice little boost to my wallet.

If I find a Combat site, which since I'm talking about 0.0 is usually an 8/10 or 10/10 and such, I have 2 friends I ask along, no alts, no super solo ship (don't even think there's a ship in EVE that can solo 10/10s.) Usually I'll go in in something heavy, my first friend brings a Logistics cruiser, and my second brings an Ishtar or something to cover the Logi and help with DPS.

Everyone has a role, and we work together to (maybe) get something awesome like a Nightmare Blueprint (never happens.) It's fun.

So I have no qualms with calling friends up to come do hacking sites with me if they're available, but I don't want to ask them to come twiddle their thumbs 90% of the time and click frantically for the other 10%, it wouldn't be fun for them.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#38 - 2013-05-28 11:26:26 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
For the people saying the 'loot pinata sucks' and the like could you vocalise the problems you have with it?

So far I've collated:
- It's not the way EVE has previously worked.
- Collision is a pain, both with the size of the Data Sites and the positioning of some containers.
- Picking can be difficult if you're not using a mouse.
- Picking can be difficult if you're blinded by the site contents.
- Loot haul seems low in comparison with how it was before.
- Losing cans feels bad, particular after the effort of having to hack the container. This makes it feel like a penalty.
- Not knowing what is any particular can so it feels bad not being able to make good choices.
- The 'bad loot' is far too bulky so it is excessively penalising as you have to stop and sort it out.


- Wild random clicking is not the way any I would WANT EVE to work? (Regardless if it was previously so or not)
- What about lag?
- Things that REQUIRE a mouse are not optimal, ideally everything should be keybindable or at least a combination of mouse + key. (My wrist is suffering enough as is :( )
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#39 - 2013-05-28 11:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Toralen
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
But on that note I don't think I agree with the ability to cargo scan these sites, it would be like Indiana Jones walking up to a ancient ruin and saying to himself "I don't know these ruins only have a couple gold coins, I will pass"


That shouldn't be changed tho. You can scan everything in the rest of Eve including overseers in escalations which makes them farmable for the perfect loot. And that never was changed. We already have the inconsistency with the rest of the game via the magical tractor beam.

Cargo scan doesn't really help to get the goodies per se as you always try to get the best cans anyway based on their name. But it helps to prioritise. For instance i was in a site with 8 containers yesterday. That would make me quite nervous on TQ due to time involvement. Cargo scan showed two containers only had t1 salvage. So that's the ones i would do last or ignore completely.

You trade this ability for a mid slot that could be used for other useful stuff. Probe mod, ecm, mwd or whatever. So it's not unfair in any way imo.
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
#40 - 2013-05-28 11:59:13 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
But on that note I don't think I agree with the ability to cargo scan these sites, it would be like Indiana Jones walking up to a ancient ruin and saying to himself "I don't know these ruins only have a couple gold coins, I will pass"


That shouldn't be changed tho. You can scan everything in the rest of Eve including overseers in escalations which makes them farmable for the perfect loot.

Sorry I can't take this part seriously, are you implying that someone would scan down a complex run the complex all the way up to the point the faction ships comes out, scan the ship and then warp off because they didn't like what loot was in there?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.