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Feedback for Hacking/Archaeology feature from 27/5/13 onward

First post First post
Author
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#61 - 2013-05-28 16:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sugar Kyle
CCP Bayesian wrote:
For the people saying the 'loot pinata sucks' and the like could you vocalise the problems you have with it?

So far I've collated:
- It's not the way EVE has previously worked.
- Collision is a pain, both with the size of the Data Sites and the positioning of some containers.
- Picking can be difficult if you're not using a mouse.
- Picking can be difficult if you're blinded by the site contents.
- Loot haul seems low in comparison with how it was before.
- Losing cans feels bad, particular after the effort of having to hack the container. This makes it feel like a penalty.
- Not knowing what is any particular can so it feels bad not being able to make good choices.
- The 'bad loot' is far too bulky so it is excessively penalising as you have to stop and sort it out.


The size of the cans is to small.

Double clicking tractors? Doesn't tractor?

The tractor beam is slow. Being far away means a slow tractor which means less loot collected.

The speed of the cans sucks. I do this in a legion. it isn't the most agile thing ever.

The hacking screen needs to be more transparent.

The mechanics/engineering pieces are not 'bad loot' they are massively bulky loot

Frankly, we should have some way to cherry pick these cans since we have to make a series of decisions on what to collect after we have just finished fighting through through the mini game, tried to watch dscan and not die and we only have two chances to hack the game or we lose the can.

There needs to be some announcement to the fleet mate helping that cans are about to spew into space.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#62 - 2013-05-28 16:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabella Rella
CCP Bayesian wrote:
For the people saying the 'loot pinata sucks' and the like could you vocalise the problems you have with it?

The cans move too quickly.
The brackets on the cans are far too small.
The size of the cans are small making it even more difficult to click.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
Together We Solo
#63 - 2013-05-28 16:35:53 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Cordelia Mulholland IV wrote:
The other points you have are IMHO either insignificant, incorrect or people being adverse to change. Don't take all of the moaning to heart.


Indeedy, I just want to make sure we have the main complaints noted so that we've not dropped the ball on user feedback.




Well it looks like I just stopped giving up anymore of my time to test your systems for you on Sisi. What's the point if you are only using my feedback to check off the feedback box?

You know, in my job if I make something for my clients and they all but one hate it, I can make up any number of self serving generic conceptual reasoning why they hate it, like "they are being adverse to change" all I want. And even if that one person who likes it agrees with me that my grand vision was right and everyone else just doesn't get it. The simple fact still remains that if I don't make my clients happy, I have failed at what I do.
Naomi Hale
#64 - 2013-05-28 16:37:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Hale
In response to my earlier post, this is more what I would have liked Archaeology to be like...

You discover something and scan it

Which leads to...

Using science and industry skills to study it and narrow down other linked sites

so you...

Fly there and discover more clues

which then goes to...

More exploration of New Eden's history, landmarks and scenic vistas

and so on and so on, until...

The resulting data and notes from your search are turned into interested factions, thus leading to rewards, standing, knowledge and a feeling of accomplishment

Added future features...

Incarna lab to study discoveries

and...

Cartography room to view results and plan your next move.

(Thanks to CCP, Bioware, Square-Enix and Relic for some of the art)

Not suggesting you change the existing idea or implement this, just saying, in an ideal world, this is what I would have liked EVE Achaeology to be like.

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.

Kahns
Ixion Defence Systems
#65 - 2013-05-28 16:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahns
CCP Bayesian wrote:
For the people saying the 'loot pinata sucks' and the like could you vocalise the problems you have with it?

Sure...


  • It's really unresponsive. There's no feedback for when you've got one locked up and it will tractor, when it ends, when you've failed because the item is out of range. And it's all very slow, from the tractoring, to getting to groups of cans in even a fast ship, etc. I feel like when I wind up not tractoring a can I have no idea why it's not working or what I need to do to fix the situation. Again, feedback.
  • We do not have direct control of our ships, so don't expect it from us! Moving towards floating cans that you can't select in the overview highlights some of the worst parts of how Eve's ship control mechanics work. It was already frustrating to nimbly move our ships around in Eve, we just typically didn't have to do it. As you know, we don't have direct control of our ships, but in this case you're basically asking us to pretend we do.
  • This ties into the first two points, but 9/10 times I don't feel like I lost loot because of something I did... I lost loot because I got stuck on something, the interface broke in some weird way, or my cargo was full because I picked up something massive and now I don't get to pick up anything more until it all disappears.
  • It's completely inconsistent with the metaphors you've used elsewhere in the game. Clicking on something doesn't bring something towards you anywhere but in this one single little mini-game. Worse yet, you've got the metaphor of tractoring using a module elsewhere in the game and it works completely differently. It's just bad design!
  • I'm still encountering situations where the loot shoots into a structure and I can't get it, or spews the opposite of where I am and if I double click on the loot I just... navigate into the wall. It sucks.


Again, if you simply removed having to move your ship around and made the items disappear after a certain amount of time, so it was really just grabbing as much loot as you could whack a mole style, it would still be whole-ly inconsistent and out of some Facebook game, but at least it wouldn't seem broken and frusterating and it would far more be in line with what you advertised at Fanfest.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-05-28 17:32:06 UTC
The nullsec sites in the current version of SiSi now seem to be in a pretty good state. I ran three relic sites (Ruined Serpentis Monument Site/Science Outpost/Temple Site) in a heron with a virus coherence/strength of 135/40. I was able to open every can in each site, usually on the first attempt. It took just under 50 minutes to hack and loot all the sites, and I got 110m worth of stuff plus a few things that the game doesn't value properly (T2 rig BPCs and the Spatial Attunement Unit things required to build T2 probing mods). Given that this was in Serpentis space and so there was no possibility of getting any of the more valuable T2 salvage types (i.e. Intact Armor Plates or Capacitor Consoles), that's a pretty decent return.

The loot spew mechanic has probably become a bit too easy to manage as a lone player now, if the intent is to induce people to group up. I was consistently able to gather all bar 2-3 of the spewed cans in my heron, so there's no real incentive to bring a friend along, especially if you use a cargo scanner to determine which spew cans to prioritize. I didn't have any problems with bumping into things in the three sites I ran.

The problem with invisible defensive nodes still seems to occur - I ran into one in the Temple Site.
CCP Bayesian
#67 - 2013-05-28 17:33:20 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
So you will deign to listen to the feedback, even though you agree it is just insignificant, incorrect, or people adverse to change.... awesome.


No we sit down and discuss the feedback we've got, it leads us to make changes and add further metrics gathering so we can find out how the problems are manifesting across the population playing not just the people who choose to post in the forums. Some things are obviously wrong and broken, some are issues that require smoothing of rough edges or reworking things and others are differences of opinion. Part of our job is to make sure we've listened, understood and considered the constructive feedback we get. I posted my list above here to make sure I wasn't missing anything as the feedback we get can be quite difficult to decipher.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

CCP Bayesian
#68 - 2013-05-28 17:36:42 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:

The problem with invisible defensive nodes still seems to occur - I ran into one in the Temple Site.


I fixed this today so it shouldn't happen after Sisi is next updated.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

CCP Bayesian
#69 - 2013-05-28 17:43:27 UTC
I just want to apologise as people seem to have misunderstood my previous post. I was not agreeing that we should ignore feedback and that wasn't what the poster I was quoting meant either. I was agreeing that we were not disheartened. If we didn't care about your feedback I wouldn't be listing a whole bunch of things out, asking for your input and I wouldn't have been active in all the feedback threads on our feature.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#70 - 2013-05-28 18:08:55 UTC
Are you going to put a ships on grid element into calculation for the hacking and cans speed and direction.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#71 - 2013-05-28 18:09:23 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
I just want to apologise as people seem to have misunderstood my previous post. I was not agreeing that we should ignore feedback and that wasn't what the poster I was quoting meant either. I was agreeing that we were not disheartened. If we didn't care about your feedback I wouldn't be listing a whole bunch of things out, asking for your input and I wouldn't have been active in all the feedback threads on our feature.

There did seem to be confusion but it would seem it was how the quote was perceived, I believe you may have meant something like this.
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Cordelia Mulholland IV wrote:
Don't take all of the moaning to heart.


Indeedy, I just want to make sure we have the main complaints noted so that we've not dropped the ball on user feedback.


But because this was included and was first people believed it is what you were agreeing to.
Quote:
The other points you have are IMHO either insignificant, incorrect or people being adverse to change.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

CCP Bayesian
#72 - 2013-05-28 18:13:54 UTC
Omnathious Deninard, yup!

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#73 - 2013-05-28 18:14:15 UTC
Kahns wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
For the people saying the 'loot pinata sucks' and the like could you vocalise the problems you have with it?

Sure...


  • It's really unresponsive. There's no feedback for when you've got one locked up and it will tractor, when it ends, when you've failed because the item is out of range. And it's all very slow, from the tractoring, to getting to groups of cans in even a fast ship, etc. I feel like when I wind up not tractoring a can I have no idea why it's not working or what I need to do to fix the situation. Again, feedback.
  • We do not have direct control of our ships, so don't expect it from us! Moving towards floating cans that you can't select in the overview highlights some of the worst parts of how Eve's ship control mechanics work. It was already frustrating to nimbly move our ships around in Eve, we just typically didn't have to do it. As you know, we don't have direct control of our ships, but in this case you're basically asking us to pretend we do.
  • This ties into the first two points, but 9/10 times I don't feel like I lost loot because of something I did... I lost loot because I got stuck on something, the interface broke in some weird way, or my cargo was full because I picked up something massive and now I don't get to pick up anything more until it all disappears.
  • It's completely inconsistent with the metaphors you've used elsewhere in the game. Clicking on something doesn't bring something towards you anywhere but in this one single little mini-game. Worse yet, you've got the metaphor of tractoring using a module elsewhere in the game and it works completely differently. It's just bad design!
  • I'm still encountering situations where the loot shoots into a structure and I can't get it, or spews the opposite of where I am and if I double click on the loot I just... navigate into the wall. It sucks.


Again, if you simply removed having to move your ship around and made the items disappear after a certain amount of time, so it was really just grabbing as much loot as you could whack a mole style, it would still be whole-ly inconsistent and out of some Facebook game, but at least it wouldn't seem broken and frusterating and it would far more be in line with what you advertised at Fanfest.


Pretty much this. I'm getting more and more disappointed as CCP seems to ignore more and more blatantly any constructive criticism that comes form these forums.
CCP Bayesian
#74 - 2013-05-28 18:15:58 UTC
Salpun wrote:
Are you going to put a ships on grid element into calculation for the hacking and cans speed and direction.


Nope but we are making a host of changes to make the system more usable. I'll get CCP Prime to post what they are tomorrow as he is the guy making them and I'm posting from home.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#75 - 2013-05-28 18:19:59 UTC
Nicola Arman wrote:
The whole thing is luck based it seems. I've only done about 5 Relic Sites though. Not very exciting loot yet. The spew cans seem to change color based on distance from what I've been able to see. I don't like that you can't add them to the Overview. I think that is a very bad idea. And where does that tractor beam come from exactly? It doesn't exist normally.


I know right? Initially I thought I had to bring a Noctis or have a tractor installed, but nope, it just pops outta nowhere. I want to whack the devs over the head so far for pushing this quite honestly HORRENDOUS loot pinata mechanis up our rectums.

It's as if they really want to make solo ANYTHING short of unboosted mining impossible or just far less profitable than it ought to be.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#76 - 2013-05-28 18:31:16 UTC
My main issue with the can picking is that its not fun

Would be more fun with visual clues as to what cans might have a higher chance of having good drops or something.. adding some skill to the thing with trying to pick out the really valuable ones instead of just clicking a ton of stuff..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#77 - 2013-05-28 18:36:13 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
For the people saying the 'loot pinata sucks' and the like could you vocalise the problems you have with it?

So far I've collated:
- It's not the way EVE has previously worked.
- Collision is a pain, both with the size of the Data Sites and the positioning of some containers.
- Picking can be difficult if you're not using a mouse.
- Picking can be difficult if you're blinded by the site contents.

- Loot haul seems low in comparison with how it was before.


- Losing cans feels bad, particular after the effort of having to hack the container. This makes it feel like a penalty.

- Not knowing what is any particular can so it feels bad not being able to make good choices.
- The 'bad loot' is far too bulky so it is excessively penalising as you have to stop and sort it out.


As much as I normally hate stacking forum posts. I feel forced to do so because exploration is my primary ISK source. The can loss pretty much kills the profession as it stands because solo pilots get too little and it pushes amall gang structure. However, a small gang would make more isk per hour doing L4s or even just nullsec ratting.

Second, while I feel the site difficulty is all over the place, I noticed I can now solve 1 out of 8 nullsec sites with my Echelon, which, while bad, yeilded enough cans not to make me want to jettison your entire dev team into the nearest Blood Raider encampment.

Third, the fact I can't pinpoint the valuable BPs from the dropped cans is enough to make me want to ram my fist through the screen when I *do* get a can out in null. At the very least make the cans unscannable because I'm going to foam at the mouth after two weeks of seeing the amount of valuable loot I'm wasting going at it solo.

Finally, why hasn't the loot pinata, which everyone pushed forward as feeling like a punishment, implemented as a punishment instead of an integral part of the profession? You're seemingly more active than you used to be in getting feedback, but honestly you seem to love making specific styles of gameplay (read: Anything not requiring alts) a blatant nightmare.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#78 - 2013-05-28 18:42:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Scuzzy Logic
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
No need to provide evidence I believed you. I did not realize something like that was possible to do and it is almost disturbing that it is possible to do.


Why *do* you think the larger corps in null have very specific IF YOU TOUCH IT YOU WILL GET PODDED FOREVER policies regarding their exploration sites? To be honest CCP ought to throw out the damned pinata system (Is this getting though to you devs yet?) and work on solving these exploits. Hell, the fact Goonswarm was able to exploit the f*** out of Loyalty Points using Boosters was obvious but required a lot of logistics (WHICH THEY HAVE) and so CCP just shrugged it off until it became a problem so overt the markets were on the bink of collapse.

I'm amazed I still play this game considering they keep nerfing solo play and buffing the large megacorps so they can PLEX their supercap pilots every hour.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#79 - 2013-05-28 18:53:16 UTC
Manssell wrote:
Toddfish wrote:

+ Increase the number of failure attempts possible (maybe even remove the exploding cans) to encourage people to progress towards more difficult sites. If someone decides they want to spend an hour hacking a can (due to skills/fitting/difficulty, the possible loot, etc.) they should be able to.





Great idea! Right now a lower skilled player can still get the same loot as a higher skilled one, it just takes them longer to do it. The new mingame with the 2 strikes boom mechanic seem like CCP just stepped in front of a bunch of part time and newer explorers and shouted "not perfect skills… NO LOOT FOR YOU!"


CCP's entire policy has always been "not perfect skills… NO *Insert relevant activity here* FOR YOU!". If you haven't noticed yet, they keep hammering hate on anything that can be done solo yet keep ignoring the fact that most of the people mining and/or hauling at any given moment are very likely bots.

Also, I approve of this. HARD. As anything that would get low-skileld characters a chance at null content would be so welcome I'd practically pay its rent.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#80 - 2013-05-28 19:16:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Scuzzy Logic
Naomi Hale wrote:
What I would have liked Archaeology to be like...

You discover something and scan it

Which leads to...

Using science and industry skills to study it a narrow down other linked sites

so you...

Fly there and discover more clues

which then goes to...

More exploration of New Eden's history

and so on and so on, until...

The resulting data and notes from your search are turned into interested factions, thus leading to rewards, standing, knowledge and a feeling of accomplishment

Added future features...

Incarna lab to study discoveries

and...

Cartography room to view results and plan your next move.

(Thanks to CCP, Bioware, Square-Enix and Relic for some of the art)


You know, THIS is what I was expecting. Sure, the hacking minigame isn't all bad. (The pinata, however, IS.) I'd expect this to be how Archaeology should function. It would make RPers much more heppy, too. it's to bad you didn't make this your CSM platform, I'd have liquidated anyone who'd have run against you for free because of how much I like the idea.