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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Author
Tendon O'Mathy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#161 - 2013-05-09 02:43:57 UTC
As someone has spent the time training all of the skills to be the ultimate scanner, I feel screwed out of experience. Mathematically maybe not..by these changes...it makes it easy to play this game..I don't play cause it is easy.

Don't make this an easy game please.

You are taking away my accomplishments. The day I could drop 8 probes, that were DSP's and scan down a WH in 3 minutes vs. 10 minutes was a wonderful day..now you are watering that down.
Cage Man
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#162 - 2013-05-09 03:01:31 UTC
I don't understand why those of us who did the long train to use deep space probes can't be reimbursed in some form. Pilots who have done BC5 and destroyer 5, capital pilots, etc will reap the benefits and still be able to fly what they used to, but those of us who trained to be able to use one special probe have essentially wasted our time as they will be removed, these skills have no use elsewhere.. Sad
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2013-05-09 03:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Cage Man wrote:
I don't understand why those of us who did the long train to use deep space probes can't be reimbursed in some form. Pilots who have done BC5 and destroyer 5, capital pilots, etc will reap the benefits and still be able to fly what they used to, but those of us who trained to be able to use one special probe have essentially wasted our time as they will be removed, these skills have no use elsewhere.. Sad

The skill now gives a bonus to scan strength, deviation and speed. The only way Astrometrics 5 doesn't give you a bonus after the change is if you stop scanning.
Fredrick Kalirande
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2013-05-09 03:11:33 UTC
Good day!

I've been running a few sites in low sec minmatar space, this is the feedback I have so far:


  • Although there was not a few explanation, I quickly understood the fact that I no longer need to use hotkeys to move all my probes around, it took 2 systems for me to figure that out but I quickly got use to it and I rather like that change. The changes in the scanner were also a bit confusing at first, but easy to adjust to.

  • On that note, the new interface doesn't allow the modification of the size of category cells in the scanner. Since my screen is a bit small, everything is labelled "Cosmic" to me, unless I expand this window to nearly half my screen size. I would like to have the possibility to adjust the cell's size back.

  • Auto formations worked great for me, releasing all 7 probes at once is great, but reduce the vulnerability time of covert scanning ships.

  • The scanner doesn't save signatures previously locked at 100% strength like the old one. Again, not a big deal, I just "ignore" the signature after pinning it down and bookmarking it. However, it would be nice if those would still remain saved to 100% strength for as long as I'm in the system, like in the current TQ client.

  • All the minmatar (angel cartel) hacking and archaeology sites that i've been to are currently not functioning properly in low sec. All the nodes are already unlocked when I get to them, analyzer modules didn't work (Error message, you cannot use data analyzer on Angel Hacking 1), and the loot is acquired by simply opening the inventory. Also, all the lootable cans are stacked on each others in every sites I've been so far, I'm not certain this is intended.

  • Because of the above mentioned issue, no rats were spawned in the sites and the hacking minigame never prompted, so I don't have any feedback on this.

  • The loot all button is missing from those anomaly site's cans (could be intended)

  • New scanning modules were not seeded where I was, but I didn't have any problem scanning anything down without them in low sec. (I have what I consider to be average scanning skills points)

  • Looted sites did not despawn after leaving them.

  • Probably unrelated to exploring per say, but in combat sites, a few wrecks were randomly abandoned (turned blue) without any input from me. This happened seemingly randomly on frigate and destroyer rats. I wasn't using drones and I was the only player in the system. Happened in both Anoms and Signatures on one or 2 rats in every pockets. I didn't found anyway to recreate the bug myself.



This is all I have for now!

Cheers!
Saerni
Confederation Navy Research
Epsilon Fleet
#165 - 2013-05-09 03:14:18 UTC
A note on the blue wrecks, it tended to be the first ship I killed in a site when I randomly ran a few. This was also true for belt rats in low.
Squatch
Omni Galactic
Central Omni Galactic Group
#166 - 2013-05-09 03:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Squatch
Naomi Hale wrote:
Oxigun wrote:
PS: Where is the probe timer? Do probes no longer expire?


This. I forgot to ask.


They definitely expire. Left a set out in space and closed the client, ran some errands IRL and couldn't reconnect to them when I returned ~2hrs later. Losing probes due to connection outages coupled with the inability to use anything *other* than 7 probes at a time will make getting stranded in w-space with 4-6 probes in your cargo/launcher a very real possibility.
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad
#167 - 2013-05-09 03:37:08 UTC
Please do not take ship distances out of the probing window, it is absolutely necessary for fleet PVP to determine which ship you are warping your fleet to when you get a 100% probe scan off. If you take out the distance column you're basically telling us to play russian roulette with our fleets.

PIZZA CEO

Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#168 - 2013-05-09 03:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Olari Vanderfall
My first impression is one of disappointment.


I've been exploring since you had to drop bookmarks and lay out your probe patterns for system coverage. I welcomed the scanning changes with Apocrypha and trained my skills so I could use 8 probes including Deeps. So imagine my surprise to find they're gone. I scan with 4 deeps and 4 combats. Works amazing for scanning out WH systems with lots of sigs.


I like the ability to drop all probes with one click in formation, but any decent scanner can drop their probes and have them setup in seconds so this isn't that big of a deal unless your aim is to remove pilot skill in scanning.


As noted by other posters, the 100% sig not staying at 100% is an annoyance.


Not sure what the hell the spread formation is. Is that your attempt to make up for the loss of deeps? If so, it fails.


I'll fiddle some more with the new setup but as it is now I don't see where actual skill will be needed. Drop 7 probes, hit scan, drag probes to center of sig, reduce au, scan, get bacon.

I also don't like that probes are recalled automatically. If I want to drop probes around and reconnect to them when I return to system what's wrong with that?
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#169 - 2013-05-09 03:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sugar Kyle
I don't like the magical probes at all. Remembering to recall your probes and going back to get them was part of paying attention. I just left probes on one side of a system, with my cargo open to watch, warped to a gate on the other side of the system at zero. Then jumped. They were back in my cargo hold as soon as I hit jump.

People lost probes a lot. They had to buy more. Probes are expensive enough that you learn to manage them. Now they will just reappear. Yuck. Remembering your probes was not hard. Now you don't have to do anything but remember to not let them time out.

As I said that, relaunched a set. I also don't see a timer on them anymore, so they no longer expire? Probes are now immortal unless downtime?

When they said they auto recalled I thought they'd warp to you and get to you or not get to you as other things do. I did not expect them to just reappear.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Powers Sa
#170 - 2013-05-09 04:12:34 UTC
Junko Sideswipe wrote:
Please do not take ship distances out of the probing window, it is absolutely necessary for fleet PVP to determine which ship you are warping your fleet to when you get a 100% probe scan off. If you take out the distance column you're basically telling us to play russian roulette with our fleets.

Yes this breaks 50% of pizza's gameplay (bombing).

All the other whining by wormhole residents is glorious. RIP carebears.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.

Rhavas
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#171 - 2013-05-09 04:34:42 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
blink alt wrote:
CCP Paradox wrote:


Deep Space Probe removal
They have been removed from the game. All Deep Space probes will change into core scanner probes.


Can you confirm this is a planned changed for odyssey expansion not just some test server limitation?


Planned changed, they will be removed with Odyssey.


Why?

They were extremely useful for high-skilled pilots, especially in wormholes.

In addition, since you are halving the usefulness of the advanced astrometrics skills per level, will you also be halving their training time?

It seems like you're taking some very time-intensive skills and tools that separated people who invested from those who didn't and basically making everyone equal.

I love a lot of the changes you're making but these two I couldn't disagree more with.

Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary

LtauSTinpoWErs
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#172 - 2013-05-09 04:39:13 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


As I read the original post I interpreted it as meaning only the bonuses given by the skills are changing, not the training modifiers. IE: Rangefinding gives 5%/lvl rather than 10%/lvl but remains as an 8x multiplier skill and as such take no less SP or time to train.



This. They are not changing the rank - they are changing the EFFECT of the skills. No compensation is needed.



All of that work because I misinterpreted the OP's post :(

On that note, all I want are my DSP.
Boltorano
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#173 - 2013-05-09 05:14:33 UTC
Just finished spending an hour or so trying out the new scanning system.

Most of it will just take getting used to but these two things are really bothering me:

Removal of the DSP as a tool for determining the total number of ships/signatures in a system does nothing but make scanning more annoying. Even if they no longer provided the ability to filter out signatures by their base signal strength I would still want to use them, as having to use the onboard scanner to figure out how many signatures are in a system by moving the camera around is a real chore.

I don't understand why you're removing the ability to use the minimum of four probes to scan down a signature. It's nice that the new formations allow you to launch all 7 in a nice formation (saves me a lot of effort I never bothered with before) but if somebody ends up in a situation where they are stuck in w-space with only four probes now they will be SOL, where they wouldn't before.

Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#174 - 2013-05-09 05:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Hi log in to Singularity today and tried out your new scanning system.

The potential is there but at this moment, it is too cumbersome to use.

Problems

- Big annoyance for me is probe selection. Every time I press shift and select all probes, the moment I do something else all probes are deselected.
- Took awhile to figure out how to move all probes together.
- Ability to set my own formation.
- The UI sometimes does not update. For example, let say I select probe 1, and set the size to 4Au. The UI wont updated until I press scan.
- The UI seems a bit clunky, and lag is noticeable.
- No UI indication showing that by selecting the middle probe that the whole formation is selected.
- Sites no longer shows up 100% (*Not a major issue)
- Found a data site but was not able to access data cans even though I carried the right module. (Got an error stating that I cannot use data analyzer 1 with the hacking container, also tried using analyzer 1)

Suggestions

- All probes selected should remember their state, and remain selected until deselected.
- Quick and simple tutorial highlighting changes first time scanner is opened.
- Ability to launch one probe at a time and ability to set up your own formation.
- Highlight arrows when sites are 100%!
- Allow us to save location directly from scanner (* would be a great addition)
- Have UI immediately update!

Ideas

- Make probes destructible items in space
- If you are cloak, you ship systems scanner may not run (*just a thought)


Thank you for your time!
Nethras
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2013-05-09 05:28:40 UTC
While the idea behind a lot of these changes seems good, not removing major tools or information sources in doing so is pretty critical as well. Stuff like distance being available for fleet warp target selection being the most important of course, but there are some more minor issues that really need to not get dismissed as part of the "oh no, the sky is falling, don't change anything!" whining.

First off, DSP removal and not being able to scan with single probes makes it much tougher to figure out the base strength of sites in a system. While not gamebreaking, that's a pretty major piece of information to lose access to - please make sure that is still accessible in some form, whether just putting it in as another data cell column, or a scanning mode that gives single probe results. Either way, extra probe ranges being added so that combat probes could reach max DSP range would be ideal and help fully render DSPs as redundant rather than leaving some edge cases we'd still want them for.

Secondly, give us a way to bookmark formation location and scaling, preferably multiple such bookmarks (and not clearing them when we leave system, though a cap on just how many we can have period would make sense). One of the major benefits of not using all your probes as a single group is that you can effectively keep track of where you were in scanning a system, and be able to swap to your other 4 probes and in one scan get previous results back again. This really helps if your initial scan around a planet/planet cluster got decent results on a whole bunch of sites you need to narrow down separately. Being able to bookmark probe formation locations and swap back to them would go a long way towards alleviating this loss of functionality without making the new system as complicated as the old one. It would also partially replace being able to jump back into a system and reconnecting for hunting purposes.
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#176 - 2013-05-09 05:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Faulx
Here's some things you should look at (in order of flow through):

Scanning:

  • Left clicking the "scanner button" in the HUD, produces a radial menu. Selecting the "System Scanner" from this menu does not automatically maximize the window if it has previously been opened and minimized.
  • If I go through a stargate while in solar system map, my UI momentarily disappears and the map just suddenly switches from one system to the next. Shouldn't it "zoom out and back in" or something?
  • As a side note, while in the "star gate jump tunnel" Mouse-over tool-tips such as from a "show info" window still pop-up as you move the mouse.
  • It would be nice if your chat window stayed open while you're in the "star gate jump tunnel". Pretty though it may be, disappearing windows interferes with game play during a moment when you can't do much else. This is bad.
  • The warning message for when you jump into a new system with your probes out is still displayed even though they will be returned to you.
  • Now that we have a visual for the "system scanning sweep": Some sort of visual feedback should be added for D-Scan as well. An overlay should show us what angle our d-scanner is working at.
  • Despite my "sweeping scanner" having detected all the cosmic anomalies/signatures upon jumping in to a system, they do not show up on the scanning window's list until the analyze button is used.
  • It would be nice to be able to disable the "system sweep scanner" visual effect but still be able to see the signatures in space. Maybe if you only had it go around 1 or 2 times when you first warp in to a system? After that its a bit too gaudy.
  • Unidentified sites are not listed in the scanner window, so you have to pan around trying to see them all. This is not ideal. Especially since they are automatically given to you when you enter the system.
  • "Signal strength" values in the tool-tips are too truncated, you need to show precision out to at least 2 decimal places (the lowest being 1.25%). Also it should be called "Signature Strength". "Signal Strength" is what % your at while scanning.
  • The sorting bar with the "type", "group", "id", ect... is missing from the scanner window. This is annoying especially in big systems with lots of sigs, where you want to be able to sort the list.
  • The "type" field says "Cosmic" instead of "Cosmic Signature"; although, "Cosmic Anomaly" is still correct.
  • Each line in the scanning window eats up WAY too much space, especially in crowded systems. There needs to be an option for the lines to be smaller.
  • When first launching, the probes' "starting position" is where ever you place them in the system map rather than right next to your ship... This can make for rather long probe warp times in some instances.
  • It would be nice if you could set up your probes for the next scan while your previous scan was underway. I've been tired of waiting for the scan to finish for years.
  • It would be nice if double clicking on a red dot centered the camera... or better yet the probe constellation on the dot. (I know we're venturing in to "bottable" territory here, but it's annoying to have to pan your camera twice or more to center the dot)
  • If you want a truly useful "history" then you should save all "spheres, circles, and dots" that have ever been made for a signature. Then, when selecting that signature, the user can visually eyeball where previous scan results overlap or cluster together in order to better guess where to scan (even if their last scan didn't include that signature). Especially since general direction and signal strength of all the sites are automatically given to you. you should just be able to pick one out from the list and see where all the previous scans of that sig intersect. This history should persist until the site has been 100%'d. Previous scans should be color coded, to indicate which scans have lower deviation, and thus, more fidelity in the signatures actual position.
  • When you put it back in, the "scanning in progress" bar, should NOT overwrite the data field which shows all the signatures. For those of us that keep records, it's annoying as hell not to be able to jot this stuff down while we're waiting on the next scan.
  • When you put in the "custom probe formations", please allow not only "position" but also "scan radius" to be preset. When using such custom probe formations, please maintain the difference in "scan radius" when probes have different radii. So, for example, if I have 4 probes at 8 AU and 3 (or 4?) probes at 2 AU, when I re-size, I should have 4 probes at 4 AU and 3 (or 4? please!) probes at 1 AU. This should persist all the way down to minimum size, whereupon it collapses, but is remembered by the system: such that, if I have 8 probes at .25 AU, and I re-size upward, I should have 4 probes at 1 AU and 4 probes at .25 AU. I hope that's clear, because it would be a god sent of a time saver.
  • From a mathematical perspective, our ships "knowing" the position in the sky of a signature would allow us to pinpoint the position of a signature simply by warping from one side of the solar system to the other (using parallax). Even just dropping one probe and getting a "distance to target" would pinpoint the signature. The whole idea behind probes is that they use Trilateration which uses distance only. Once you have a pair of angles to go with a distance, pinpointing is very easy. Basically, you're breaking "Verisimilitude" by allowing us to see the sigs before we've pinpointed them, because no one in their right mind would use 7 probes do what 1 probe and a ship scanner can.
Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#177 - 2013-05-09 05:45:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Faulx
Hacking Feedback:

  • Obviously, you can't interact with the hackable containers and relics using the specified equipment. Instead you have to use the right click menu > "open" to begin playing the game. This means you do not start the game with the benefits of skill or equipment. (boil this down to "its the test server", and "aren't you glad you can play more than once without having to find a new sig?"... answer... "yes, on the test server")
  • Archaeology "relics" produce the same game, it should really be different.
  • If you fail the hacking game, it says "loot jettison imminent". Doesn't the word "loot" breaks immersion? Shouldn't it be something like "Info shard?"
  • Quite often, when you click a node, the graphics wont change although the state will... for example the node stays green but neighboring nodes now behave like it has turned red. Or the node attacks you but it still looks like a green dot, so you have no clue why.
  • It would be nice if, in the hacking game, taking out subsystems would weaken the core. This way exploring the network architecture could pay off in ways other than the (currently) nearly useless helper-tools. Also it would be interesting if the network reshaped itself when you reached certain trigger points.
  • I should think skills like Minmatar Encryption Methods should help in hacking racial pirate systems in some way. Perhaps the network should start out obscured, and these skill books let you see "see" deeper into the network without having to actually click a new node. Or, perhaps, higher levels in these skills could allow you to use network paths which others simply don't see (or which are greyed out for them).
  • Shouldn't honey pots be the "surprise" defense system at a data cache, rather than a firewall to nowhere?
  • Honey pots shouldn't block access to the neighboring network nodes, their effect is simply to be annoying, not "annoying + firewall". As it stands they're rather OP.
  • It would be nice if there were racial variants (or at least visual themes) on the hacking game. Spinning cylinders locks for the Caldari, sprawling Network nodes for the Gallenete, poorly connected wires and rusty circuit boards (and duct-tape) for the Minmatar, Elegant geometric designs for Amarr.
APEnglish
The Irukandji
#178 - 2013-05-09 05:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: APEnglish
Question on the new modules: Do stacking penalties apply? My reason for asking is this: If there are no stacking penalties, shouldn't I stack multiple modules on my (free) ibis to make it equal or better at probing than a (not free) buzzard? In addition, shouldn't I choose to not spend a 4-week duration training skill prerequisites to competently fly covert ops ships and instead spend those 4-weeks training the astrometric skills which would apply to probing done by every ship I own?

In short, my worry is that this change could directly diminish the specialized probing advantage for covert ops ships, because many ships are now capable of probing just as well (via probing modules), with lower skill requirements, and lower cost. Sure, covert ops still warp cloaked, but there's plenty of other (more versatile) ships that can warp cloaked. I do like the new modules, I just worry that I'll have no reason to keep using buzzard.


Also, I really like the idea of making one module with multiple scripts instead of three modules. I would carry several stacks of scripts everywhere I go & change them immediately to suit my needs; but I highly doubt I would carry around 3 stacks of modules to adapt my ship to my scanning needs.

Also:
So long as you're improving the probing system, there's one "little things" inconsistency many pilots would appreciate resolving:

When improving a ship's probing ability, pilots decide whether to fit tech-1 or tech-2 gravity capacitor upgrade rigs. However, due to calibration requirements, ships can only have either two tech-1 gravity capcitor rigs or one tech-2 gravity capacitor rig. The result is that a probing ship rigged with two tech-1 rigs performs better than (and is cheaper than) a probing ship rigged with one tech-2 rig. So upgrading to tech-2 rigs results in a relative decrease in probing performance with the only benefit of freeing up 1 rig slot (which is not typically worth the expense). This decrease in performance when upgrading to tech-2 rigs is inconsistent; it would be great you could make a change to make tech-2 rigged probing ships perform better. Perhaps increasing the bonus provided by tech-2 rigging or decreasing rigging calibration costs would be enough?
Elinea Ausene
Tail Spin Corp
Proxima Centauri Alliance
#179 - 2013-05-09 05:52:10 UTC
i have just log in sisi and now you have to forget my previous message =) jumps are amazing

about new scaner i want to ask you give us in additional to nice scanner overlay some scanner window with all signatures list. it was the first in using deep space probe and i need it. Really i have move my mouse to every signature in space to understand what it is and to write on paper signal strength. it isnt comfortable.


and i think you know, that signature, i was scanned at 100%, doesn't save in signature list if i try to scan another one. i hope its bug)
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#180 - 2013-05-09 06:05:02 UTC

  1. Copy pasting sig ID's dont work (keep screwing with WH people and You will get another "small part of community" thread)

  2. I guess that with the new scan overlay doing basically what deep space was doing before, all 100% sites should be visible on map, they dont until you run on-board scanner

  3. on-board scanner dont show progress bar

  4. pls seed new scanning modules

  5. Spread fprmation is useless - pls dont put in game buttons to do useless stuff and teach new players wrong things

  6. selected probes deselect after scan

  7. DSP was very important for keeping track of new ships in space and also was much better for DSP pribing (looking for specifis signal streanght) then combat probes - give it back

  8. I cant lunch probes when i have less than 7 - what if i lost some probes? its possible to scan with just 4, so why dont we are able to scan with 4?

  9. Is the probe timer removed?

  10. stuff scanned with overlay scanner whould show on list - its not showing untill you use probes/on-board scanner

  11. scanning radial menu keeps forcing you to press buttns, when you move mouse away and click to close it keeps slicking on of the buttons in the direction you moved mouse away

  12. there should be a sound indicator when scan overlay detects something after jumping into system - right now i have to frantically ship-spin in space to see if there is anything

  13. green line warp indicators are gone

  14. i can no longer center scaning UI around one of my probes using visual ui, i have to double click on list where you dontk know which probe globe" is which probe (edit: ok, i can double click on arrow cube)

  15. things scanned to 100% dont stay scanned down



excluding those problems I see light at the end of the tunnel for this new feature. Keep working and DONT RELEASE AT THIS STATE