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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Kyril Bonfiglioli
Particle Men Industries
#541 - 2013-05-07 04:39:40 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Am I speaking the wrong language?
This is a serious discussion sidetracked by trolls.

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

Three simple questions.
Zero answers... Will Hefty prevail in finding the answers on the broken internet!?
Find out on the next post. /commence epic outro!


***Depends on if you understand what people here are trying to tell you...

*** Judging by some of your abusive responses to people making reasonable suggestions, I am starting to wonder who the troll is here.

*** Your first question... What people here are trying to tell you is that they don't see it as a problem. Most people are able to enjoy the game without huge skill points. I have seen very very young characters kill characters that have been purchased on the Character Bazaar because the inexperienced purchaser didn't know how to play the game. Your best bet is to hook up with a corp that can teach you how to play the game. There is awesome fun to be had out there, you just need to be open to it without abusing others for giving you the advice you are asking for.

*** Your second question... Given that most players don't see this as a problem, then it isn't necessary to talk to anyone about it. If you do want to talk to someone about it, try talking to a Dev.

*** Your third question... If you read my answer to your first question, then this really answers itself doesn't it. Maybe you need to just throttle back on your ambitions, be open to what people are telling you and enjoy all the aspects of this game.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#542 - 2013-05-07 12:35:05 UTC
Why are so many people still addressing the OP? He hasn't posted in this thread in 2 months, or in the forums at all in the last month and a half.

(Hint: If you can't be bothered to read through a long thread before posting, at least read the last couple of pages to get an idea of who's actually still participating.)
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#543 - 2013-05-07 13:36:58 UTC
For some reason I didn't get subscription notifications for new posts in this threat. Pls bear with me while I'm trying to accumulate a few interesting points and address them.

Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

I totally agree with you that skill points are needed to round out and really take full advantage of any ship. My point is that most new players can have the skill points to fly a battleship long before they can afford to lose it.


Let me translate that for you: 'I am TERRIBLE at making ISK and players like me have no problem with the speed of SP generation, since it is faster than our horrible ISK generation speed. '

Yes, I already conceded that before. The SP system is catering to people who are bad at basic maths (which is, quite frankly, all you need to make ISK in EVE).


Boe Harknes wrote:

So basicly you are upset at your lack of knowledge and skill in the game. [...] I have 70 days left of training before I am even thinking about PVP and that is just to get my certs to standard for firgates and there respective tanks and weapon types.


So, you're not actually questioning his skills in the game, but in the META game instead. I.e. the fact that a new player in factional WARfare can only make money by AVOIDING EVERY SINGLE FIGHT vs. another player, running as soon as anyone appears on D-Scan. Because due to that player's likely SP advantage our new player will not be able to beat him under any circumstances. (Not taking into account that our aggressor might be a complete moron)

The guy was told he can make ISK via PvP when in truth he can only make them via avoiding PvP, doesn't sound a bit odd to you?

Vega Makutu wrote:
Quote:
No, my (and other people like myself's) problems are mostly borne from the attitude of elitist jerks who feel they have a right to an infinite advantage over newer players simply because they started playing the game earlier.


So, say you had a character with max skillpoints in everything. Your big giant awesome ship is still limited by game mechanics. You can still die to a pack of rifters.

Then you and people like you will come here to the forums and whine and complain about how broken the game is


Looks like you're quoting me (quote= would help, you know), which means that's a bold assumption you're making there.

Whatever made you come to that conclusion? And wherever did the 'giant awesome ship' come from?


Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#544 - 2013-05-07 16:01:06 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

Let me translate that for you: 'I am TERRIBLE at making ISK and players like me have no problem with the speed of SP generation, since it is faster than our horrible ISK generation speed. '

Yes, I already conceded that before. The SP system is catering to people who are bad at basic maths (which is, quite frankly, all you need to make ISK in EVE).

Plenty of people plex their accounts for isk... Plenty of new players make massive amounts of money by in game means (market, exploration, scamming, etc). You don't need SP to make isk.

Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

Boe Harknes wrote:

So basicly you are upset at your lack of knowledge and skill in the game. [...] I have 70 days left of training before I am even thinking about PVP and that is just to get my certs to standard for firgates and there respective tanks and weapon types.


So, you're not actually questioning his skills in the game, but in the META game instead. I.e. the fact that a new player in factional WARfare can only make money by AVOIDING EVERY SINGLE FIGHT vs. another player, running as soon as anyone appears on D-Scan. Because due to that player's likely SP advantage our new player will not be able to beat him under any circumstances. (Not taking into account that our aggressor might be a complete moron)

The guy was told he can make ISK via PvP when in truth he can only make them via avoiding PvP, doesn't sound a bit odd to you?


A new player can kill an older player simply by employing appropriate tactics. Once you achieve a certain "minimum" SP cease to make much difference in the outcome of a fight unless you both employ the exact same fits and fight in the exact same manner... which rarely happens.

Isk in FW is earned by accruing LP. LP is primarily earned by capturing plexes and/or running missions. Sure, some LP for kills exists, but, in general, it's small compared to LP from the other sources. Fighting is for fun, and a solo new player can beat asolo older player by being smart. Unfortunately, FW is also plagued with OGBs, which tip the scale towards the player with an OGB Alt giving their fleetmates many obnoxious boosts (35% more EHP, 35% more speed, 70% more Rep, 35% more effective EWAR, etc)...


In the end, EvE SP system is what's keeping this game alive, not ruining it. The inability to fly everything under the sun, at max skills, within a week of joining the game ensures a diversity of opponents. It doesn't cater to the instant gratification crowd, but they generally grow bored with games very quickly and don't stay anyway. Please explain to me how the SP system is truly holding you back???
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#545 - 2013-05-07 21:11:12 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

A new player can kill an older player simply by employing appropriate tactics.


The only reliable tactics is to bring higher numbers, everything else would require prior knowledge of your opponent's setup to be able to create a counter fitting - which seems somewhat unlikely. (Also the veteran is more likely to have an OGB alt, since you brought them up.)

Quote:

In the end, EvE SP system is what's keeping this game alive, not ruining it. The inability to fly everything under the sun, at max skills, within a week of joining the game ensures a diversity of opponents. It doesn't cater to the instant gratification crowd, but they generally grow bored with games very quickly and don't stay anyway. Please explain to me how the SP system is truly holding you back???


The SP system is a nice idea in general, especially when it comes to diversification and making choices between weapon systems and racial ships or profession paths.

I already adressed the main flaws though:

Where there is no diversivication - i.e. for the BASIC skills, that 95% of the players will have at some point within their first 2 years - it's just a HUGE and unnecessary time sink. It's not forcing choice at all, because there is no realistic choice.

There is no reward AT ALL for playing actively versus passively skilling an alt that is never logged in. To the contrary, the active player is even penalized, either by not being able to use a perfect attribute mapping or skill choices being dictated by the active mapping or being forced to invest into skills that have a shortterm use but will be worthless longterm.



I'm also frankly quite sick of every critical word being attributed to the 'instant gratification crowd', whatever that is even supposed to be, definitions seem to fluctuate wildly. Even with the IMO necessary changes, creating a decent specialist character would still take many months - you may wish too look up 'instant'.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#546 - 2013-05-07 22:15:25 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

A new player can kill an older player simply by employing appropriate tactics.


The only reliable tactics is to bring higher numbers, everything else would require prior knowledge of your opponent's setup to be able to create a counter fitting - which seems somewhat unlikely. (Also the veteran is more likely to have an OGB alt, since you brought them up.)


Stolen from another thread:
I was out killing more experienced pilots, in "better ships" before I ever had an SP advantage over my opponents:

Merlin vs Rifter
Merlin vs Claw
Merlin vs Crow
Merlin vs Raptor
Merlin vs Crusader (loss mail to show my fit)
Merlin vs Taranis (loss mail to show my fit)
Merlin vs Taranis
Tristan vs Crow
Tristan vs Malediction

I could go on and on with examples, where my low-SP, cheap fit t1 frigates took on higher SP characters in T2 fit t2 ships. Most of the time, SP doesnt' matter nearly as much as combat tactics.

I had an idea how my opponents were fit before the engagements do to common fits and tactics. I fit up my ship to target specific ship types (speed tanking interceptors). These wins wer from purposely fitting a ship with a tactic in mind, then going out and keeping in mind what to engage, how to engage, and when to engage, which is far, far more relevant than the SP totals of me or my opponents.

Fitting up a ship to counter an opponent is not some impossible thing requiring a crystal ball! The truth is, most ships are fitup in one or two very common and predictable manners, with mild variations.

As for OGBs.... they have a much, much larger imbalancing effect on the game than SP. SP give you a 2-10% bonus, while an OGB will give you 30%+ more speed, 30%+ more EHP, 60%+ more tanking, 30%+ longer EWAR range & strengths, etc... OGB's are a bane on game balance, and while they are more accessible to older players (thanks to skilled alts, corp mates, etc), their effect on game is a completely different issue than High SP vs Low SP balance.


Pitrolo Orti
Doomheim
#547 - 2013-05-08 02:37:35 UTC
I know I posted somewhere in this thread.

Anyways to address the point of the OP. Just sub in the game play the skill queue for 2 years. Then come back and see how much u can do.

Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.

Lady Immortal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#548 - 2013-05-08 04:08:58 UTC
Admiral Adamsgate wrote:
Total Bull, skillpoints mean nothing. Knowledge and the friends you make is how to succeed in EVE.



TBH: This.

It's how the game works, Skill points do give you options; but none that new players really need.

The first few million skill points are the most hilarious to play with. Your still pretty new if you feel like skill points mean much of anything i'm sorry to say and I don't mean it rudely at all.

Running around in a T1 frig in a small gang of friends that are like minded is honestly one of my favourite things to do in this game, ideally with characters sub 500k sp else the kills feel a bit hollow to me now.
GreenSeed
#549 - 2013-05-08 04:33:48 UTC
Should CCP ever care to read this whine fest, id like to leave this here:

please CCP don't chance the SP system, there's nothing wrong with it and the perception of inequality helps new players realize the importance of group play.

Vintah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#550 - 2013-05-08 13:06:30 UTC
This thread inspired this idea:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2993873


Take your time to read and suggest how to improve the system.
Adeleine
Chapter Six
Chapters.
#551 - 2013-05-09 21:04:02 UTC
You arent meant to do everything like that. I can do everything but I cant benefit from it because I am forced to one role at time. Eve is a team based game. Getting new friends to replace the ones that quit is the key to success.

Just look at the skills. You need little to use a module, then the rest after that is like 5% increases to meaningless stats. And why go for tight fits. It isnt a beauty contest; 10 fockers in **** fits shoot one princess anyways. It doesnt matter if he does 55% more damage.

sandbox = kindergarden sandbox = more friends, the better. Lonely kids toys get stolen and broken. No matter how shiny.
Major 'Revolver' Ocelot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#552 - 2013-05-11 21:43:03 UTC
EVE's SP system is like Marmite. Personally I love both :)
Rita May
State War Academy
Caldari State
#553 - 2013-05-11 22:00:12 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:

a lot

First I have to apologize: I couldn't get myself reading past page 5
Second i consider myself with about 1,5 years play- and training time a new (noob) player with a toon that can fly anything up to T2 BCs effectively and just recently finished the gunnery skills for the last T2 guns.
It did take me this long because I branched out in science and industries and I tried out a bunch of stuff.

You, sir, made up some stuff, whine about it on the forum with a bunch of weird assumptions while accusing everyone criticizing to not answer your made up questions as you dodge any questions that try to clarify your vague formulations.

Oh, and I won't bother to even try and discuss with you, there were enough people trying to do it.

cu
AlphaOperative Altren
Alternative Rendition
#554 - 2013-05-12 11:15:48 UTC  |  Edited by: AlphaOperative Altren
Hmmm, im with you in some respects buddy but theres plenty to do very early on. You're right in that you cant just jump in and be one of the most powerful players in the game but you can make an impact after just a couple of weeks.

I went through a similar feeling around a year ago and got a bit jaded with the whole thing. For me i bought a few Frigs and Cruisers joined RvB and just had fun losing them! Got a good few kills along the way too. I think the thing that sticks with a lot of people is the assumption that only level 5 skills are worth having, its just not the case & if you just get stuck in with the different options in Eve you'll find your niche. I would definitely suggest loading up a few frigs and going suicide in RvB you'll learn a lot and have fun meeting people along the way.

Just out of curiosity what is it you want to do that is going to take 18months before you can do it?

Edited to add: If you say start up a profitable 20 man corp based on manufacturing, pirating, mercing, mining or any other area then i'll say it will take you 18 months regardles of skills. Eve just isnt that easy :-)

Nobody ever figures out what life is all about, and it doesn't matter. Explore the world. Nearly everything is really interesting if you go into it deeply enough. ― Richard P. Feynman

Toxin Nostromo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#555 - 2013-05-12 20:31:25 UTC
While the Original Poster may be trolling a bit, some of what he stated does hold truth. But it’s because in the last five years other MMO’s have provided instant gratification and coming in green to EVE it’s a bit taxing on the requirements from what some are accustom too.

I can understand that.

Here’s my EVE experience as a whole, what I’ve learned, identified and the direction it lead me too.

I started my first character; what do I enjoy in any game? I enjoy PVP and hard PVE content. This was back when training learning skills was a big part of EVE. It was quite overwhelming for me starting off, impatient and waiting to get in to the action.
I lasted three to five months, made another account for mining and hauling which I discovered interest in something I’ve never had before. To this day I discover more things I haven’t before, which is wonderful.

Now I had three accounts. I did that for about a year. Sold all the characters I had and bought a “bigger” one that had a little bit of everything but quite good at all of them.

I made tons and tons of isk ( for a soloist) from PVP, and industry I had some set backs but in the long run I really accumulated a lot. In the end I had my logistics covered; own Jump Freighter, everything sorted for sneaking in to plex in 0.0 and blowing people up. I experienced most aspects of the game to identify what I enjoyed doing the most. Pretty much the same thing going in to it. PVP and Exploration for harder PVE content with small hand in smaller interests later discovered on my journey.
I created a new account with a goal. +5 implant it, define a two year skill training list for max efficiency, and don’t play it until complete.

Around this time real life caught up and I’ve had a really busy year. I had to study and obtain eight certifications this year, along with moving 500miles (twice) and now starting on my first house. I have no time to play, still! I stopped my Subscription on my main toon, while I kept this one active the entire duration of my absence so far.

Any other MMO I’d of been left behind, level caps and restrictions. I would be at the bottom of the food chain again with a large time investment before me getting caught up to current content. By the time I accomplish that a new expansion is coming out and I have to start over again.

I haven’t played a single game in over a year. What’s my position being away from EVE so long and realistically another six months before I can get back in to it?

I’m doing excellent in EVE! I have a little over 27M skill points. 15.5m in guns. All race guns from small to large to 5, all gun support skills to 5. Spaceship command I have 10.5, all race combat ships Frigate, destroyer, cruiser, battle cruiser currently at 5. All race battleships will be at 4 beginning tomorrow and I start them to 5.

In a years’ time being AFK I can sit in any race combat ship, use any race gun with the skills to back it up (minus tank and support skills).

Perception is at 29, Willpower at 29 I’m almost done and ready to remap to train for Tank and support skills. By the time I reach the two year mark for my projected plan I will be exactly where I want, no limitations on what I want out of EVE.
No other MMO can I do that that. To me that speaks volumes and has value.

I can take a break and not let real life sacrifices impact my gaming experience. It only welcomes me back with more to play with and learn.

When your 18-30 age bracket it’s easier to dedicate big chunks of time gaming, I speak from experience! Once you get up there in the years, it’s just not possible anymore. It’s nice to have something that can work around that.

See my Eve Youtube Channel here! Toxin Nostromo Eve Youtube Channel

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#556 - 2013-05-13 12:05:05 UTC
Toxin Nostromo wrote:

Any other MMO I’d of been left behind, level caps and restrictions. I would be at the bottom of the food chain again with a large time investment before me getting caught up to current content. By the time I accomplish that a new expansion is coming out and I have to start over again.


True enough. But catching up would be a question of days, not months. That's not a large time investment by far, in comparison with EVE standards. It could even be fun, as you would do that catch up while _playing_ a game you must have started at some point, because you considered it fun?

Also..you wouldn't have had to pay a subscription during your break, while not playing!

Quote:

I haven’t played a single game in over a year. What’s my position being away from EVE so long and realistically another six months before I can get back in to it?

I’m doing excellent in EVE! I have a little over 27M skill points. 15.5m in guns. All race guns from small to large to 5, all gun support skills to 5. Spaceship command I have 10.5, all race combat ships Frigate, destroyer, cruiser, battle cruiser currently at 5. All race battleships will be at 4 beginning tomorrow and I start them to 5.


So basically you have a char that is pretty much useless until you're done with your primary skill goal, remapped to and skilled all those missing support skills? I suppose you'll cover them in those six months, though, so no big deal.

Once you did that, you will actually be better off than a person who played during those 1.5 years, as there's no way he could realistically have postponed all of his fitting skills to the end of the long term queue. Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd?


RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#557 - 2013-05-13 15:08:44 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:


Quote:

I haven’t played a single game in over a year. What’s my position being away from EVE so long and realistically another six months before I can get back in to it?

I’m doing excellent in EVE! I have a little over 27M skill points. 15.5m in guns. All race guns from small to large to 5, all gun support skills to 5. Spaceship command I have 10.5, all race combat ships Frigate, destroyer, cruiser, battle cruiser currently at 5. All race battleships will be at 4 beginning tomorrow and I start them to 5.


So basically you have a char that is pretty much useless until you're done with your primary skill goal, remapped to and skilled all those missing support skills? I suppose you'll cover them in those six months, though, so no big deal.

Once you did that, you will actually be better off than a person who played during those 1.5 years, as there's no way he could realistically have postponed all of his fitting skills to the end of the long term queue. Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd?





So:
You think 26 million SP in ships and guns = useless?
And you think that not playing will make him a better player than an active pilot would have been?


Surely your post is a troll. I recomend it, and this whole thread be locked, for it is surely 28 pages of zero content.

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#558 - 2013-05-14 11:36:19 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:

You think 26 million SP in ships and guns = useless?


As part of a charcter's progression? Certainly not.

If the char was to 'fit' and fly a ship in his current unfinished state? Definitely.

You probably never heard of it, but there are skill categories like navigation, engineering and electronics that offer very useful skills.


Quote:

And you think that not playing will make him a better player than an active pilot would have been?


He won't be missing anything that 2 weeks of google, reading guides and practice won't fix.
Only scrubs who can't find and use information believe in the 'steep learning curve' myth.
Toxin Nostromo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#559 - 2013-05-15 01:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Toxin Nostromo
edit: Screw it I suck at quoting

But catching up would be a question of days, not months
Situational I guess it would depend on which game you were going to. Another is time factor, how much does one have. In retrospect I can see it not taking long with some mmos to get caught up.

Also..you wouldn't have had to pay a subscription during your break, while not playing!
True! Thankfully this account has entirely run on plex. Those days of camping and mind numbing pos ransom or take downs paid off.

Once you did that, you will actually be better off than a person who played during those 1.5 years
Situational, If your new and need time away better tanking, support, etc skills can only help. Be a bit more forgiving, provided a wise decision is made to stick to things cheap during the learning curve.

I’m seasoned, but a little out of date with my time away. I’d of posted with my other account but I don’t have it active. But none the less here I am. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Chimay#kills

Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd?
Sure, I knew I’d be gone for a while, So I’ve done my training in sections rather then scattered about. Boom section done, Alllll righty then, works for me.

See my Eve Youtube Channel here! Toxin Nostromo Eve Youtube Channel

Argel OTF2
The Free Republic of OTF2
#560 - 2013-05-15 07:48:26 UTC
Honestly I do think as a new player that it is insanely hard to compete in pvp against toons that are a year or two old. I try to do my homework, change my fit and only engage when I think its possible to win, yet I still get turned over by characters with a few months extra training...

I've never complained about it because frankly you can see how entrenched some people are in their view that any kind of critique of the system is 'whining', but the 9 people I joined the game with have all left because rabbiting FW plexes or dying 5 or 6 times a day and not once getting a legitimate kill is just crap. I'm probably in for the long haul, but I have to FW plex for ISK - while avoiding pvp - in order to fund my 2 accounts for the time it will take to become competitive.

That seems... 'wrong' isn't the word... its just a big reason why a lot of people look at the game and when the magnitude of how many sp they need to catch up hits home, and they die for the 10th time that day... obviously even people who would've enjoyed the game leave.

It's a shame that the attitudes of veterans suggests that many can't see past the end of their own noses.