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Dev Blog: Resource Shakeup in Odyssey: Just don’t call it a Cataclysm + Companion blog

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Crexa
Ion Industrials
#561 - 2013-04-30 18:22:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Crexa
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Crexa wrote:
^^

Which is the fundamental problem. In reality lowsec is more dangerous than null or even wh under certain circumstances. The only exception to this would be the use of bubbles true. But I look at it from an economic danger not purely a ship loss danger. Economically, the risks do not equal the rewards thus it is more dangerous.

you don't have the risk thousands of people will descend on your stations, take them, and lock you out of them and leave you unable to do anything in your space


Which is one risk among many. It neither weighs heavy or lightly on the balance economic risk. You don't find resources in a station you find them in anoms, belts, moons and planets. I should say, raw resources, as a station can be considered one.

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#562 - 2013-04-30 18:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
CCP Fozzie wrote:


1) The numbers will be out on sisi soon anyways, so I'll go ahead and let you know that the high sec anoms contain 2500 units of their racial isotope ice.

That's small. Really small. I'm quite surprised that's big enough to supply 80% of all the ice products needed by the game. For example, there are 24 systems with clear icicle. Mined 5 times a day, that's 300,000 blocks per day, 12,500 per hour. One block makes sufficient fuel for 0.75 hours of POS operations. So this is sufficient to fuel 9375 POSes, not counting fuel used by ships. Really? Only 9000 Amarr POSes in the game?

After the harvester changes a typical miner will get a block every 40 seconds. One miner could drain an anomaly in 100,000 seconds. But there will not be one miner. As anoms pop the miners will travel to wherever there is ice. The result could well be 100 miners in one belt, mining it out in 1000 seconds, or 17 minutes. They then move to the next system and do it again. The result is all these ice systems will have a belt for 17 minutes and be barren for 93% of the time. To me this does not seem like a desirable state of affairs.

At Fanfest it was stated that the new Discovery scanner was to allow the players to see the answer to the question "what is there to do?" The answer should not be "Nothing, because others already did it all".

Suggestion: The respawn timer starts as soon as any mining takes place. The re-spawn occurs when both the current belt is mined out AND the timer has expired. Result: Its best for miners to spread out and not outmine the respawn timer. If you lengthen the timer to 5 hours (for balance) along with this change, that would be five to six miners per belt.

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Crexa
Ion Industrials
#563 - 2013-04-30 18:31:26 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


1) The numbers will be out on sisi soon anyways, so I'll go ahead and let you know that the high sec anoms contain 2500 units of their racial isotope ice.

That's small. Really small. I'm quite surprised that's big enough to supply 80% of all the ice products needed by the game.

After the harvester changes a typical miner will get a block every 40 seconds. One miner could drain an anomaly in 100,000 seconds. But there will not be one miner. As anoms pop the miners will travel to wherever there is ice. The result could well be 100 miners in one belt, mining it out in 1000 seconds, or 17 minutes. They then move to the next system and do it again. The result is all these ice systems will have a belt for 17 minutes and be barren for 93% of the time. To me this does not seem like a desirable state of affairs.

Suggestion: The respawn timer starts as soon as any mining takes place. The re-spawn occurs when both the current belt is mined out AND the timer has expired. Result: Its best for miners to spread out and not outmine the respawn timer. If you lengthen the timer to 5 hours (for balance) along with this change, that would be five to six miners per belt.


It also does not take into account refine efficiency. As moving to other systems to mine may require standings with station corps that provide refining. Sure in time that may be gotten around. But how long will CCP tinker with it til all who want or need to refine build required standing. It seems there should be at least an addtional 5% cushion if they insist on going forward with this dubious idea.

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#564 - 2013-04-30 18:40:32 UTC
Do lowsec/null anoms have similar amounts of ice to highsec anoms, and do nullsec/lowsec systems follow the same "one belt = one anom" rule or will they have more anomolies?
Maul555
Xen Investments
#565 - 2013-04-30 19:01:10 UTC
Quote:
We will also be making a significant change to the way hidden asteroid belts will be found by players. We are phasing out the Gravimetric signature category, and instead pilots will be able to find all Ore Sites using their ship’s built-in anomaly scanning equipment. This change will make finding hidden belts much less difficult for both miners and for those who would prey on them, so pilots are always advised to practice vigilance.


Is this going to effect WH space too? Are you telling me that probes will no longer be needed to hunt miners in wormholes? This makes "practicing vigilance" nearly impossible if true.
Crexa
Ion Industrials
#566 - 2013-04-30 19:05:21 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
Quote:
We will also be making a significant change to the way hidden asteroid belts will be found by players. We are phasing out the Gravimetric signature category, and instead pilots will be able to find all Ore Sites using their ship’s built-in anomaly scanning equipment. This change will make finding hidden belts much less difficult for both miners and for those who would prey on them, so pilots are always advised to practice vigilance.


Is this going to effect WH space too? Are you telling me that probes will no longer be needed to hunt miners in wormholes? This makes "practicing vigilance" nearly impossible if true.



Which has been said over and over in this thread with no response.

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#567 - 2013-04-30 19:13:55 UTC
Crexa wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
Quote:
We will also be making a significant change to the way hidden asteroid belts will be found by players. We are phasing out the Gravimetric signature category, and instead pilots will be able to find all Ore Sites using their ship’s built-in anomaly scanning equipment. This change will make finding hidden belts much less difficult for both miners and for those who would prey on them, so pilots are always advised to practice vigilance.


Is this going to effect WH space too? Are you telling me that probes will no longer be needed to hunt miners in wormholes? This makes "practicing vigilance" nearly impossible if true.



Which has been said over and over in this thread with no response.

Actually there has been a response: "We want more conflict". But if all miners simply feel outmatched they will retreat to high and secured null, resulting in less conflict.

In W you will need to lock down the system before mining. Also: mine in pairs. Have each barge double web the other. Align to your POS. The webs will allow you to be at warp speed without flying away from the roid. When someone warps on grid or uncloaks the fleet commander warps you to the POS. As you are at speed the warp is immediate. (Yes its still a race to warp before you are pointed).

Every time you go to the POS to dump return to a different roid. That will give you time to get to warp speed before any cloaked ship gets close enough to attack.

All that will help. A Little. I'm not sure it will help enough.

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Maul555
Xen Investments
#568 - 2013-04-30 19:14:01 UTC
And are you people telling me that Raren is losing its ice belt? wtf guys!!! thats my home your ******* with....
Maul555
Xen Investments
#569 - 2013-04-30 19:16:12 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Crexa wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
Quote:
We will also be making a significant change to the way hidden asteroid belts will be found by players. We are phasing out the Gravimetric signature category, and instead pilots will be able to find all Ore Sites using their ship’s built-in anomaly scanning equipment. This change will make finding hidden belts much less difficult for both miners and for those who would prey on them, so pilots are always advised to practice vigilance.


Is this going to effect WH space too? Are you telling me that probes will no longer be needed to hunt miners in wormholes? This makes "practicing vigilance" nearly impossible if true.



Which has been said over and over in this thread with no response.

Actually there has been a response: "We want more conflict". But if all miners simply feel outmatched they will retreat to high and secured null, resulting in less conflict.

In W you will need to lock down the system before mining. Also: mine in pairs. Have each barge double web the other. Align to your POS. The webs will allow you to be at warp speed without flying away from the roid. When someone warps on grid or uncloaks the fleet commander warps you to the POS. As you are at speed the warp is immediate. (Yes its still a race to warp before you are pointed).

Every time you go to the POS to dump return to a different roid. That will give you time to get to warp speed before any cloaked ship gets close enough to attack.

All that will help. A Little. I'm not sure it will help enough.



There needs to be a place for solo miners in wormhole space. I cannot lock down a system by myself, and I am very often the only person in my corp that is logged in some evenings... My only recourse has been to pay attention, but now that will not work either. a cloaked ship can find me with no signs of their presence. I am farked... just plain farked...
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#570 - 2013-04-30 19:20:44 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Crexa wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
Quote:
We will also be making a significant change to the way hidden asteroid belts will be found by players. We are phasing out the Gravimetric signature category, and instead pilots will be able to find all Ore Sites using their ship’s built-in anomaly scanning equipment. This change will make finding hidden belts much less difficult for both miners and for those who would prey on them, so pilots are always advised to practice vigilance.


Is this going to effect WH space too? Are you telling me that probes will no longer be needed to hunt miners in wormholes? This makes "practicing vigilance" nearly impossible if true.



Which has been said over and over in this thread with no response.

Actually there has been a response: "We want more conflict". But if all miners simply feel outmatched they will retreat to high and secured null, resulting in less conflict.

In W you will need to lock down the system before mining. Also: mine in pairs. Have each barge double web the other. Align to your POS. The webs will allow you to be at warp speed without flying away from the roid. When someone warps on grid or uncloaks the fleet commander warps you to the POS. As you are at speed the warp is immediate. (Yes its still a race to warp before you are pointed).

Every time you go to the POS to dump return to a different roid. That will give you time to get to warp speed before any cloaked ship gets close enough to attack.

All that will help. A Little. I'm not sure it will help enough.



There needs to be a place for solo miners in wormhole space. I cannot lock down a system by myself, and I am very often the only person in my corp that is logged in some evenings... My only recourse has been to pay attention, but now that will not work either. a cloaked ship can find me with no signs of their presence. I am farked... just plain farked...


There is a guy in a friend corp that does lock down the system by himself. He parks an alt at the statics and turns up the sound on the effects. Then logs in his other 5 accounts and mines. If someone jumps in he can hear the wormhole cycle and knows its time to warp the fleet to safety.

Its not a viable method for everyone.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
#571 - 2013-04-30 19:24:47 UTC
Kadl wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Welcome back Fozzie.

There are a number of people asking that you keep the grav sites as signatures (probable)...


We're quite happy in general with the increased risk associated with the increased reward. Ore sites in lowsec, 0.0 and wormholes (especially lowsec) are getting a whole lot more valuable.

Huh? The Dev blog only mentioned the 0.0 ore: the ABC ores, Gneiss, Spod and Dark Ochre. Nothing was mentioned about the J-H ores that show in low sec.


Low sec grav sites have Null Sec ores. I would be happy with grav sites with low sec ores found in low sec.


there's plenty of good ores in npc null belts right now, not sure why you need to wait until Odyssey to mine those. will there be any difference between mining null sec belts and lo sec anoms after the expansion?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#572 - 2013-04-30 19:27:34 UTC
Iosue wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Welcome back Fozzie.

There are a number of people asking that you keep the grav sites as signatures (probable)...


We're quite happy in general with the increased risk associated with the increased reward. Ore sites in lowsec, 0.0 and wormholes (especially lowsec) are getting a whole lot more valuable.

Huh? The Dev blog only mentioned the 0.0 ore: the ABC ores, Gneiss, Spod and Dark Ochre. Nothing was mentioned about the J-H ores that show in low sec.


Low sec grav sites have Null Sec ores. I would be happy with grav sites with low sec ores found in low sec.


there's plenty of good ores in npc null belts right now, not sure why you need to wait until Odyssey to mine those. will there be any difference between mining null sec belts and lo sec anoms after the expansion?


Yes. Low sec has no bubbles and is closer to people who live in high sec.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Crexa
Ion Industrials
#573 - 2013-04-30 19:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Crexa
Vincent Athena wrote:
Crexa wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
Quote:
We will also be making a significant change to the way hidden asteroid belts will be found by players. We are phasing out the Gravimetric signature category, and instead pilots will be able to find all Ore Sites using their ship’s built-in anomaly scanning equipment. This change will make finding hidden belts much less difficult for both miners and for those who would prey on them, so pilots are always advised to practice vigilance.


Is this going to effect WH space too? Are you telling me that probes will no longer be needed to hunt miners in wormholes? This makes "practicing vigilance" nearly impossible if true.



Which has been said over and over in this thread with no response.

Actually there has been a response: "We want more conflict". But if all miners simply feel outmatched they will retreat to high and secured null, resulting in less conflict.

In W you will need to lock down the system before mining Also: mine in pairs. Have each barge double web the other. Align to your POS. The webs will allow you to be at warp speed without flying away from the roid. When someone warps on grid or uncloaks the fleet commander warps you to the POS. As you are at speed the warp is immediate. (Yes its still a race to warp before you are pointed).

Every time you go to the POS to dump return to a different roid. That will give you time to get to warp speed before any cloaked ship gets close enough to attack.

All that will help. A Little. I'm not sure it will help enough.


I think most WH residents are aware of the tactics.

A. it is impossible to lock down a wh system. Sure you can collapse extra wormholes minus a reduced static. But gankers roll new wormholes every minute they can just looking for ripe mining boats to kill.

B. Double webs only work if you have an even number of mining ships that all have equally situationally aware players operating them. And alignment issues are always present do to bumps, etc.

C. Cloaked fleets

D Your talking about ideal situations in which amateur at best gankers hit you. Real gankers know those tactics and have adapted for them.


And if you think that the "we want more conflict" supposed response will suffice then there is something seriously wrong. As in what conflict do you see arising from defenseless mining ships to being wiped out from a "cloaking here and now gone" roaming fleet. Conflict by its very definition requires two sides that are opposed to each other be present. If one is dead in mere seconds, I would hardly call that conflict.

And don't give me that support fleet nonsense. They are non-existent to even the most heavily populated alliance. In wh they are even more pointless. If an attacking fleet kills your mining fleet it has accomplished its objective even at an entire loss of its own self. If a support fleet is supposed to defend the mining fleet, in what way has it succeeded?

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"
Javajunky
Tech Builds
Pandemic Horde
#574 - 2013-04-30 19:37:44 UTC
CCP Fozzie,

Great job with the industry round table discussion on the re-balance. We've been nerding it out over here and trying to dial in on your previous comments.

(a) Will Ice belts have a single material in them or will there be blended amounts of products to an extent like existing null sec belts?

(b) Systems with weak true sec status that have dark glitter, can we expect that dark glitter to be gone or just few signatures up at any one given time?

(c) do you plan on having rat spawns in these types of belts since you are doing away with rats in mags and radars?

Thanks!
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#575 - 2013-04-30 19:41:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
One of the alts sitting by the WH has to have probes out to see a new sig. That's also a cue to warp to the POS. With the new discovery scanner I think that need goes away: It will show you all the sigs from your Barge.

The double webs works with 3 ships: Each ship aims one web on each of the other two. Only the fleet commander needs to be aware: fleet warp everyone.

Cloaked ships create a race: Will the quick lock tackle hit before the fleet commander warps? As I said before "All this helps. A little. I'm not sure it helps enough". After all there are poor gankers, and even good ones do not all use cloaked ships. Even those that do fail. I once had my Viator attacked by 3 stealth bombers. They failed.

Also: "But if all miners simply feel outmatched they will retreat to high and secured null, resulting in less conflict." Which means CCP's effort to get more conflict will fail. (I'm considering a very broad concept of "conflict", covering preparation and strategies, not just the actual encounter).

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Rengerel en Distel
#576 - 2013-04-30 19:52:18 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:

There is a guy in a friend corp that does lock down the system by himself. He parks an alt at the statics and turns up the sound on the effects. Then logs in his other 5 accounts and mines. If someone jumps in he can hear the wormhole cycle and knows its time to warp the fleet to safety.

Its not a viable method for everyone.


Not to nitpick, but 6 accounts is hardly solo, as the guy you responded to had said.

Mining in a WH will come down more to luck than any skill. Some days you're the windshield, others you're the bug.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Crexa
Ion Industrials
#577 - 2013-04-30 19:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Crexa
Vincent Athena wrote:
One of the alts sitting by the WH has to have probes out to see a new sig. That's also a cue to warp to the POS. With the new discovery scanner I think that need goes away: It will show you all the sigs from your Barge.

The double webs works with 3 ships: Each ship aims one web on each of the other two. Only the fleet commander needs to be aware: fleet warp everyone.

Cloaked ships create a race: Will the quick lock tackle hit before the fleet commander warps? As I said before "All this helps. A little. I'm not sure it helps enough". After all there are poor gankers, and even good ones do not all use cloaked ships. Even those that do fail. I once had my Viator attacked by 3 stealth bombers. They failed.

Also: "But if all miners simply feel outmatched they will retreat to high and secured null, resulting in less conflict." Which means CCP's effort to get more conflict will fail. (I'm considering a very broad concept of "conflict", covering preparation and strategies, not just the actual encounter).


So i point out issues with what you say are good defenses and you reiterate them. Which is fine. And under the status quo thats perfectly understandable.

Yet the fact is, finding mining ships will become alot easier under the current proposal. No current tactics change that. And it goes back to your last sentence, from your previous post.

"All that will help. A Little. I'm not sure it will help enough."

So where do you stand? I am opposed to such a change. Not because I live in wh space, I don't anymore. But because I am sick of the "want more conflict" rationale being applied without any thought to how. Believe me I do want more conflict, but not defenseless slaughter with no recourse. It doesn't matter if its in WH or high sec.

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#578 - 2013-04-30 20:39:06 UTC
I understand the desire for more conflict, but moving gravimetric sites to anomalies will decrease the amount of conflict.
Empire null, low sec will most likely see no increase and maybe even a decrease in mining.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Mithril Ryder
Genstar Inc
#579 - 2013-04-30 20:44:11 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


4) Bottlenecks are a tool for creating incentives in a virtual economy. My job isn't to remove them, it's to ensure they create interesting incentives.



That is so laughable I don't even know where to start. Yes, bottlenecks that involve player time, skill and even luck do what you say, but artificial and static supply side bottlenecks do not. Basing how much supply their is on the assumption that all of the supply will be mined, with presumably no loss, and a mechanic that doesn't ensure all of it can be mined is hopelessly out of touch with reality.

Speaking of static supply, station resources in NPC stations need some player-drive way of being expanded (outside of the extremely limited pool of FW systems), or perhaps standings based access at NPC stations to "vip" facilities, or somesuch.

I'm going to stockpile minerals before someone gets the brilliant idea to do the same thing with 'roids.

Also, I predict goon fleets keeping an eye on the timers and warping in SB BS to pop all the miners that warp in when a belt finally respawns. Wait a second, no that makes too much sense... /me leaves thread to go make a shiny tinfoil hat.
Kelmurdoch
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#580 - 2013-04-30 20:50:04 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

EvilweaselSA wrote:
Do 0.0 ice anomalies all include the three non-racial ices (the ones with a lot of LO, a lot of stront, and a lot of heavy water lawl), or do the distribution of those ices in anomalies match the current distributions?

I wasn't happy with the way the best truesec systems often missed out on good ice so each tier builds upon the one before instead of replacing. The best ice anoms found in the lowest truesec in all areas of space will contain all three non-racial ice types.


Does this mean the best truesec belts have additional ice or an equal amount of ice with a different distribution?

And in general, if a highsec belt contains 25,000 ice units, how many will a lowsec and nullsec belt contain?