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New blog: All quiet on the EVE Launcher front?

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Luna Moonraker
LUNA-CORP
#201 - 2013-03-16 00:42:02 UTC
CCP Aporia wrote:
Luna Moonraker wrote:

[...]
There is some concern with the Mac EVE Online client which does seem to have an issue running with torrents running in the background and if this same traffic causes similar hanging issues then it means that specific issue needs addressing with even more urgency. I guess we will see from Sisi testing.

And any potential issues arising from the permissions/ user rights for additional file/ folder data checking that will be required. Not all users will have Admin privileges.
[...]


The Mac issue reported in this thread cannot be caused by torrents because there is no launcher available that uses torrents at the moment. While there might be issues then they are unlikely to be the same problem as what was reported. Though we are of course aware that the Mac client does behave a bit special at times.

About the admin privileges: We actually are looking into ways of mitigating these by eventually moving the installation of the EVE client into a more appropriate place, fitting with the various operating system guidelines on where this data should live, mostly because that will also take away some pain on our end when it comes to maintaining the update mechanism. Requiring admin privileges is really a bad habit but was not really frowned upon in the Windows world until Microsoft introduced UAC; and as we all know it takes a while for some things to get adopted properly.

Thanks for the detailed reply Aporia.

The issue with Torrents I was referring to is not related directly to the current download mechanic but to anecdotal accounts which appear to confirm that running torrents 'at the same time as' the Mac EVE Online client seems to cause an increase in the freeze/ hang without any error log generated issue that has been ongoing for a long time. An recent example post (of many) noting this link would be here and are generally found in the long running 'Constantly freezing up' Mac forum thread

So, although there is no current torrent element to the download, if patches and downloads moved to a torrent based method, perhaps this issue could be exacerbated because it is an option for users to simply not run torrents when playing EVE on the Mac but unavoidable if it is an integral part of the Launcher.

Being that the Launcher would generally be run prior to play (i.e. to patch or update the game) then it is perhaps a non-issue. But if a torrent share was continued after the download is completed, then this may be an issue.

I am glad you are already considering the permissions issue at this stage. You hands are tied to a degree with the Mac EVE client utilising a Transgaming port and subsequent file hierarchy. But, given the current security systems in place now in OS X, traversing the array of such features, including permissions is more important than ever to avoid end user issues.
Cpt Bogus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#202 - 2013-03-16 02:45:09 UTC
Personally, I like it when companies aren't afraid to use BT distribution. The IP address thing is a valid concern but as others have said anyone determined to get players' IPs already has ways of doing this so it's kind of irrelevant.
Wanderer Unknown
Trust N1
#203 - 2013-03-16 07:44:48 UTC
@ CCP/Team Special Circumstances

I'm a little bit curious what exactly in your existing implementation was so hard to fix that you considered to do a full re-write using a different, 3rd party library. You already have a resource server mapped to CDN. Now you need like two APIs - get metadata and get the resource.

Get metadata takes things like market, reseller id, etc plus a rounded down timestamp like ts=20130316 to break the CDN cache. It then returns the most recent list of downloadable resources or resource chunks with CRCs as published under some versioned folder on your resource server.

Then the second API is called by the clients to download the parts they are missing. If the resource is too big - OK it could be concatenated and served in chunks spanning across multiple files.

Then the client side is relatively easy - just make the calls, download stuff, CRC, apply.

I would think it's rather risky to switch to a different implementation with no huge benefits (other than being able to prioritize character data loading over world data).

Possibly I'm missing something like a need to support lots of client platforms... (PC, Mac OS, now PS3).
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#204 - 2013-03-16 08:36:43 UTC
Sierra Mackenzie wrote:
So glad you're dedicating programming time to improving the launcher than improving the actual game. Instead of improving the experience for existing players, they're improving it to draw in new players. Why else would they need to improve Steam integration?

...

Edit: Also, all of the tinfoil hat wearers in this thread crack me up. Oh noes, BitTorrent is going to eat my computer and malicious users are going to have my IP! Whatever shall I do!?

Tinfoil accuser should look in the mirror. CCP is perfectly capable of devoting developer resources to several areas of the game at once, including things like the launcher.
And as for improving the experience for existing players, the devblog and subsequent posts indicated an issue with the current downloader implementation where if a download was interrupted, sometimes the entire installation would be corrupted. Many EVE players have had this problem before and while I personally haven't I can imagine it's extremely frustrating. Adding a bittorrent protocol would prevent this from happening for the majority of players.
Jane Travelstar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#205 - 2013-03-16 11:24:19 UTC
Hey there CCP.

1. Please don't make it like Blizzard's awful BitTorrent-based launcher.
They don't let people change the speed at which they upload to the swarm.

2. There are so many ISPs out there who still throttle BitTorrent bandwidth, making those things crawl down to a halt.
Othran
Route One
#206 - 2013-03-16 11:55:41 UTC
As long as its only running while the launcher is open/downloading that's cool.

Anything else isn't acceptable to me I'm afraid.

I've heard all the "it won't affect your internet use" bollox before. On multiple games and from multiple companies.

It most certainly will as unless you've hand-tweaked your router (exceptionally unlikely for most of you), once the upload nears saturation then you aren't going to be able to push enough ACKs back to maintain the d/l speed of other users on your LAN.

Also of course you'll end up with lost UDP packets which is just lovely for other people gaming on your connection Roll

I note that upload will be "limited". Heard all that before too, sooner or later you end up with a patch that maxes out upload and fucks up everyone else using the connection. Again multiple games and multiple companies have all done this.

I've also heard all the arguments about how this will make things "better" for users. It's only ever better for the company concerned who can reduce their CDN fees and hence increase their profits.

tl;dr fine as long as the P2P process terminates when the launcher closes/isn't downloading. Not fine otherwise.
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
#207 - 2013-03-16 11:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: I Love Boobies
Will be looking for the number of share upload connections when this comes out and setting it to zero. Or if that doesn't work, will just block it via my security software so it cannot be shared from my computer. Blink

I don't run BitTorrent like many people do, and don't want to. Why? Do I need a reason any other because I don't like the idea of people leeching from my computer just so they can update a game? So yeah, if I cannot shut it off, guess Eve and I will be parting ways. Smile
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#208 - 2013-03-16 12:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: xxxTRUSTxxx
I don't wish to share my details nor my network.

give us an off button in the options of the launcher for torrents i will not be allowing uploads from my network.

I'll stick with the HTML download I've always used thanks.
Dyvim Slorm
Coven of the Morrigan
#209 - 2013-03-16 12:43:06 UTC
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
I don't wish to share my details nor my network.

give us an off button in the options of the launcher for torrents i will not be allowing uploads from my network.

I'll stick with the HTML download I've always used thanks.



Pretty much my view as well
Stray Bullets
Perkone
Caldari State
#210 - 2013-03-16 12:50:07 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Wodensun wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Malifae wrote:
By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.

Yeah.

What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address?


DoS.
DDoS.
Exploiting your Router/Modem.
Possibly Man in the Middle attacks.
Messing with your EvE client since we know what ports it listens on.


I might be able to think of more but i'd need to run a nmap vs your IP first...
Which incidentally was handed to me by CCP...

None of which anyone on the internet who was determined to exploit couldn't exploit without using a bittorrent client.

My point is that the torrent doesn't provide any vulnerabilities that aren't already there.


It does provide any ill intention'd subject with a list of IP addresses that are known to run the EVE client. Basically, you're getting a very narrow list of people to scan down for vulnerabilities. These vulnerabilities are, at the moment, secure by obscurity.
Stray Bullets
Perkone
Caldari State
#211 - 2013-03-16 12:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Stray Bullets
Cpt Bogus wrote:
Personally, I like it when companies aren't afraid to use BT distribution. The IP address thing is a valid concern but as others have said anyone determined to get players' IPs already has ways of doing this so it's kind of irrelevant.


What ways are that? I can see no way to get a list of IP addresses from people that are sure to be playing EVE without those people using either a third party forum of some sort or third party software. If you merely downloaded EVE and never posted in any related site or used any third party application, your IP address is never shown to the public in a context that relates you to EVE, thus being just another IP address and making it unlikely for targeted attacks.
Stray Bullets
Perkone
Caldari State
#212 - 2013-03-16 13:00:54 UTC
This feature needs to be off by default.

Posted this on another thread in GD, where the OP was basically saying that he wanted to control what used his bandwidth, as in, he could turn it off if he choose so.

Stray Bullets wrote:
Even though it makes no difference to me personally, I do believe this needs to be set as OPT IN, as in, it's off by default. Why?

Because the OP does have a point where he does not have to share his own connection, regardless of protocol used or if everyone else in the industry is doing it or not. The why he doesn't want to share his bandwidth is irrelevant as he's paying for it, he decides where it's used and how.

If you do decide to opt in on the BT download, getting faster downloads, you also upload while doing so, which seems logic.

If CCP does go with BT and it actually eats up my upload in any way noticeable, I'll simply limit it's port to 0kb/s on the upload on my router.

TL;DR This needs to be OPTIONAL, with default being OFF! :)


Like I said, this should be OFF by default, with the option of turning it on for a better download performance along with the option to keep seeding.

After reading some of the other posts regarding security, and having the launcher basically connect to other piers, making my IP "public", the OFF by default makes ever more sense.

Regarding CCP having another medium on which to distribute the client, it's irrelevant to this discussion in my opinion, as it's not my responsibility to distribute their product. My bandwidth should be used only when I allowed it to be used and never used in a "by default" way.
Dizirgee
UnaLaLuna Inc.
#213 - 2013-03-16 13:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Dizirgee
I'm for torrent launcher.
As for people that have ISP that shape/block torrent trafic well try to change your provider. I mean by giving them your money you support they policy and thus make them think that thats what people want, no torrent trafic...

I also like that you put there option to keep seeding after download cause as I'm not greedy leecher I may want to go for at least 1:1 ratio.
And what about full eve client installation ? If client launcher will be uploading only patch data how someone can download/install whole client? Will there be option like if I want to seed patch data only or whole client data?

edit: and yes torrent download should be ON by default (at least for patch data).
Djana Libra
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#214 - 2013-03-16 15:00:39 UTC
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:
a serious concern here in the US.

With CAS/Six Strikes rolled out, and obviously already claiming false positives on LEGAL files, how can i possibly be affected with EVE Online files essentially "Copyrighted material". I don't really want to start a political debate here, but politics in the US are veering towards the technophobe stage, if it hasn't already, and it is affecting P2P network traffic among other things.


Move to a civilized country?


Nah but really it should be no problem at all if the files aren't marked as copyright protected with a specific origin allowance
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#215 - 2013-03-16 15:54:35 UTC
If you are still worried, in 2013, by DDoS Attack and other kind of IP troublemaking, you should not be playing online games.

There are numerous easy way to protect yourself against those attack, the easiest one is : Reset you IP.

and as mentionned, you can set the upload speed yourself, so just set it to 0, and you wont share anything.

Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#216 - 2013-03-16 20:40:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Acac Sunflyier
Origin has a very small line written into its EULA that says origin to allow them to view any information on or bout your machine that they deem relevant and necessary. I feel as if the dev blog that C.C.P. released about the change to torrents.

Quote:
by default the new EVE Launcher will only make you share the data required for installing the client


I am wondering what kind of oversight is happening to guarantee this? Many of C.C.P.'s customers are out of country. Except for England and the United States (where the company has a physical presence and maintains servers) it would be very difficult for other countries to prosecute C.C.P. as a company. It'd be even more difficult if it were a rouge Icelander. In some sense we're having to take C.C.P.'s "word for it." and it'd be comforting to make sure nothing bad happens.


Maybe i'm just a privacy freak and won't install software that takes information without my knowledge. Maybe if there was a way for us to track what's being taken.

Oh and about the EULA bit; by downloading and clicking play we "accept all terms of the EULA" and that we're informed and consented. I find it hard to express that i give my informed consent when i don't even know what's being taken. I feel as if C.C.P. should be very explicit what's being done.


Also a link to the dev blog
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#217 - 2013-03-16 20:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Acac Sunflyier
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Oversight? Are you kidding.....Shocked




Some of us want to be very very careful of what can be data mined from the internet.


Also you'd just make something that can "look" at your customer's computers (random people across the internet) and then not look in to see that the guys running it aren't being shady? kinda ignorant
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#218 - 2013-03-16 20:47:33 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Oversight? Are you kidding.....Shocked




Some of us want to be very very careful of what can be data mined from the internet.



I'm not arguing the point, I'm simply saying CCP isn't capable of fixing things that have been broken for years, expecting them to actually provide oversight, and security may be asking too much....Shocked


Remember BOOT.INI!


Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#219 - 2013-03-16 20:59:14 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Quote:
by default the new EVE Launcher will only make you share the data required for installing the client
I am wondering what kind of oversight is happening to guarantee this?
Just install a detailed bandwidth monitor and check if it's sharing tons of data after the download is complete.

Quote:
Maybe i'm just a privacy freak and won't install software that takes information without my knowledge.
It's not taking any information at all. It's making sure you're sharing the data you've already downloaded, because that's how the protocol works.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#220 - 2013-03-16 21:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
If you try to avoid giving any data about you, you'll just make yourself look even more suspicious,
because you obviously have to hide something.

Too much paranoia is bad, okay ?