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[Winter] Ewar Tweaks for Retribution

First post First post
Author
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#501 - 2012-11-22 16:58:19 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:


Why not add skills to counter missiles, even though there's already a module that does that? .


You mean like "navigation" or "acceleration control"?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#502 - 2012-11-22 17:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
This is almost exactly like learning skills. You don't have to train it, but you are at a disadvantage if you don't, so you should train it.


Your statement describes literally every skill in the game (except Tactical Shield Manipulation 5 and the old version of Afterburner 5).

In general we like people to have interesting options with their skill training and there are already skills that partially counter Damps and TDs.

We are planning to keep adding skills here and there from time to time, when we see interesting gaps to fill.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#503 - 2012-11-22 17:05:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
So why is the "5%" nerf to tracking disruptors a different kind of "5%" from every other "5%" change you are making?

Edit: Your statement also applies sometimes to afterburner V, and the skill that affects the reactive hardener (even with the buff in retribution, since shorter cycles make it easier to get capped out and lose all your accumulated resist)
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#504 - 2012-11-22 17:07:22 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
So why is the "5%" nerf to tracking disruptors a different kind of "5%" from every other "5%" change you are making?

Edit: Your statement also applies sometimes to afterburner V


Because it seemed clearer that way, I may have been wrong about that but I think most people get what's going on.

Good point about the afterburner skill, although take a look at it on Buckingham you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#505 - 2012-11-22 17:09:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Good point about the afterburner skill, although take a look at it on Buckingham you'll be pleasantly surprised.


You cant trick me into logging in that easily.
Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#506 - 2012-11-22 17:19:54 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Good point about the afterburner skill, although take a look at it on Buckingham you'll be pleasantly surprised.


You cant trick me into logging in that easily.


lol

Skill is changing to offer -5% to Afterburner Duration per level and -10% Activcation Cost per level.


Dear CCP Fozzie,

In relation to the above Afterburner skill change, will the Fuel Conservation skill remain unchanged (leading to Afterburners having the same Cap use as now)?

Regards,
Sparks

.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#507 - 2012-11-22 17:21:02 UTC
Sparkus Volundar wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Good point about the afterburner skill, although take a look at it on Buckingham you'll be pleasantly surprised.


You cant trick me into logging in that easily.


lol

Skill is changing to offer -5% to Afterburner Duration per level and -10% Activcation Cost per level.


Dear CCP Fozzie,

In relation to the above Afterburner skill change, will the Fuel Conservation skill remain unchanged (leading to Afterburners having the same Cap use as now)?

Regards,
Sparks


Yeah we're not touching Fuel Conservation atm.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#508 - 2012-11-22 17:23:05 UTC
The afterburner change is super awesome
Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#509 - 2012-11-22 17:33:16 UTC
It is indeed Smile

Thanks for the reply, Fozzie.

.

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#510 - 2012-11-22 17:42:53 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Sensor strength skills lead to greater variability of players' ships' sensor strengths, leading to less predictable ECM dynamics, relative to a uniform change. Increasing variability and decreasing predictability to this extent is a good thing.


Not really. It'll just add more to the "mandatory PvP skills" list, which is already too long.


If you regard a 20% sensor strength skill as mandatory, what do you regard a 96% ECCM mod as?

They're not mandatory at all. And even if they were, a rank 2 skill takes, what, 2 days for a new player to get to IV in a single race. You're really making a fuss about this? Come on. Straight
Lili Lu
#511 - 2012-11-22 18:57:03 UTC
Lol What a bunch of ******* whiners. Look you've been playing the game without any sensor strength skill and ecm is not being changed for strength. So noone has to train these skills. But of course people will want to train them. Do you really hate the fact that you want to train them?

Mind blown. Please CCP don't ever add skills to the game that I might want to train. I want to grind to level 80 and have a completely skilled character. Please.Ugh
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#512 - 2012-11-22 22:19:11 UTC
Energy Management is just like learning skills. Adds nothing, you have to train it for serious PvP.

Shield Management is just like learning skills.

Long Range Targeting is just like learning skills.

Sensor Compensation is just like learning skills.

All these statements are false. Learning skills changed the rate at which you could train skills. All these other skills change something about the way your character interacts with the universe. Does a trade alt need sensor compensation? Does a cyno alt need sensor compensation?
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#513 - 2012-11-23 19:20:24 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Energy Management is just like learning skills. Adds nothing, you have to train it for serious PvP.

5% per level for capacitor capacity, really adds nothing? Tell the Ammar that.

Mara Rinn wrote:
Shield Management is just like learning skills.

5% bonus to shield capacity per skill level. I suppose all those shield buffer fits are just a phase we are going through right?

Mara Rinn wrote:
Long Range Targeting is just like learning skills.

5% Bonus to targeting range per skill level. A few kiteing fits would like a word with you.

Mara Rinn wrote:
Sensor Compensation is just like learning skills.

Yes. Ads nothing, but is absolutly nessisary if you face ECM in anything smaller than a BC.

Mara Rinn wrote:
All these statements are false. Learning skills changed the rate at which you could train skills. All these other skills change something about the way your character interacts with the universe. Does a trade alt need sensor compensation? Does a cyno alt need sensor compensation?

Learning skills changed the rate at which you could train skills, if that doesn't tell you why they were mandatory to train, I don't know what will. Now the Sensor Compensation skill changes the rate at which a combat pilot could be jammed, If that doesn't tell you why it will be mandatory to train, I don't know what will.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Lili Lu
#514 - 2012-11-23 20:03:36 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
All these statements are false. Learning skills changed the rate at which you could train skills. All these other skills change something about the way your character interacts with the universe. Does a trade alt need sensor compensation? Does a cyno alt need sensor compensation?

Learning skills changed the rate at which you could train skills, if that doesn't tell you why they were mandatory to train, I don't know what will. Now the Sensor Compensation skill changes the rate at which a combat pilot could be jammed, If that doesn't tell you why it will be mandatory to train, I don't know what will.

LMFAO Terrible post. Give up. You have lost the argument.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#515 - 2012-11-23 22:37:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Good point about the afterburner skill, although take a look at it on Buckingham you'll be pleasantly surprised.


What is going on with the afterburner implants, as of right now they still increase the cycle time by 10% Are they going to be left alone as well?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#516 - 2012-11-24 02:36:11 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
All these statements are false. Learning skills changed the rate at which you could train skills. All these other skills change something about the way your character interacts with the universe. Does a trade alt need sensor compensation? Does a cyno alt need sensor compensation?

Learning skills changed the rate at which you could train skills, if that doesn't tell you why they were mandatory to train, I don't know what will. Now the Sensor Compensation skill changes the rate at which a combat pilot could be jammed, If that doesn't tell you why it will be mandatory to train, I don't know what will.

LMFAO Terrible post. Give up. You have lost the argument.

When you can't refute it, call it stupid and claim victory. I see what you did there.

It's not going to work this time Lili, either refute the point and stick your ad hominem attacks where the sun doesn't shine, or concede the point.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Lili Lu
#517 - 2012-11-24 03:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
When you can't refute it, call it stupid and claim victory. I see what you did there.

It's not going to work this time Lili, either refute the point and stick your ad hominem attacks where the sun doesn't shine, or concede the point.

No, that is not an ad hominem. An ad hominem would be me calling you a ******. But it is calling your argument stupid.

Stupid, because the learning skills are not by any stretch of the imagination similar to the new sensor skills.

I already did refute the point many posts ago, but very well.Straight The learning skills did not affect a ship. They affected your character, your character's ability to learn new skills. The new skills do not affect your character's ability to learn other skills, they affect your ship. They increase the sensor strength making your ship harder to jam. Thus they are nothing like the old learning skills. They are more like signature analysis, which makes your scan resolution higher, or long range targeting which gives you more lock range, both of which make you more resistant to damping. Or like motion prediction or sharpshooter/trajectory analysis v tracking disruption.

And that is why your argument is stupid.Blink

And, they are not mandatory either. They have not been in the game so far, and people have been able to fight without them. But, that almost everyone will want to train these skills is fine. Just as if there was no signature analysis in the game we would all just accept longer lock times, because we would know nothing else. But if signature analysis came into the game you bet lots of people would want to train it.

So stop complaining about these new skills. They are an indirect nerf to ecm. If that's what has really got you mad then say so. Frankly an indirect nerf is preferable because not every one will have these skills trained to 5. Thus it also introduces a variable nerf in addition to an indirect nerf. Some people will have it trained at 3 or 4 and some may will go for 5. So with the current stats that would be a 12% - 20% nerf on ecm. Does that bother you? It doesn't bother me, and it's not the reintroduction of the learning skills.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#518 - 2012-11-24 03:35:27 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
All these statements are false. Learning skills changed the rate at which you could train skills. All these other skills change something about the way your character interacts with the universe. Does a trade alt need sensor compensation? Does a cyno alt need sensor compensation?

Learning skills changed the rate at which you could train skills, if that doesn't tell you why they were mandatory to train, I don't know what will. Now the Sensor Compensation skill changes the rate at which a combat pilot could be jammed, If that doesn't tell you why it will be mandatory to train, I don't know what will.

LMFAO Terrible post. Give up. You have lost the argument.

When you can't refute it, call it stupid and claim victory. I see what you did there.

It's not going to work this time Lili, either refute the point and stick your ad hominem attacks where the sun doesn't shine, or concede the point.

Without learning skills trained a long term player would have been thousands or more skill points behind a player who started ata the same time.
a PI alt will have no need to train these sensor compensation skills, a mining alt will have no need to train these skills. Where both of those alt types would have taken much longer to train and thus cost more without the learning skills. Fact being learning skills were necessary for ALL pilots to have, and these will only be useful for PvP and some PvE.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#519 - 2012-11-24 05:22:49 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:

I already did refute the point many posts ago, but very well.Straight The learning skills did not affect a ship. They affected your character, your character's ability to learn new skills. The new skills do not affect your character's ability to learn other skills, they affect your ship. They increase the sensor strength making your ship harder to jam. Thus they are nothing like the old learning skills. They are more like signature analysis, which makes your scan resolution higher, or long range targeting which gives you more lock range, both of which make you more resistant to damping. Or like motion prediction or sharpshooter/trajectory analysis v tracking disruption.

I see where your confusion is. Unlike Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors, ECM has an all or nothing effect. If ECM wasn't an all or nothing effect, I could see where this skill would be a "nice to have but not really necessary," type skill like signature analysis, long range targeting, motion prediction, sharpshooter, and trajectory analysis. Since ECM is an all or nothing mechanic, it will take the new skill out of the "nice to have" category, and shove it into the "you are going to be horribly gimped if you don't train this skill" just like LEARNING SKILLS were. Just because not everybody needs this skill, like PI alts, miners, and Cyno alts, doesn't change this fact.

That is what I'm complaining about.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#520 - 2012-11-24 05:46:31 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:

I already did refute the point many posts ago, but very well.Straight The learning skills did not affect a ship. They affected your character, your character's ability to learn new skills. The new skills do not affect your character's ability to learn other skills, they affect your ship. They increase the sensor strength making your ship harder to jam. Thus they are nothing like the old learning skills. They are more like signature analysis, which makes your scan resolution higher, or long range targeting which gives you more lock range, both of which make you more resistant to damping. Or like motion prediction or sharpshooter/trajectory analysis v tracking disruption.

I see where your confusion is. Unlike Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors, ECM has an all or nothing effect. If ECM wasn't an all or nothing effect, I could see where this skill would be a "nice to have but not really necessary," type skill like signature analysis, long range targeting, motion prediction, sharpshooter, and trajectory analysis. Since ECM is an all or nothing mechanic, it will take the new skill out of the "nice to have" category, and shove it into the "you are going to be horribly gimped if you don't train this skill" just like LEARNING SKILLS were. Just because not everybody needs this skill, like PI alts, miners, and Cyno alts, doesn't change this fact.

That is what I'm complaining about.


Come on... think about this:

Currently, in many PvP situations, people bring ECM either via Caldari Ships or ECM drones.
The changes dont' make ECM pilots more effective against your current PvP ships. Instead, they make them less effective. So, when we don't have these skills, and we can currently handle ECM in most PvP situations (even if it is very potent), I don't see how these new skills we be mandatory.