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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

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Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#581 - 2012-11-20 21:23:00 UTC
Singira wrote:


BLA BLA trolling

Um are you a complete idiot??

The new A.I. changes are not on Buckingham, they are being tested on duality.

if this has been changed then I got more testing to do.

Even if it was, you would have to find someone ratting on buckingham to gank. I just checked and there are only 176 players logged onto buckingham right now. Who did you try to gank?

The issue with the new A.I. auto targeting ships that warp in and attack the ratter not the NPC's has been fixed.

This is a ganking tactic anyway, I thought you said you were a PVPer? Anyone can kill a PVE ratting ship that has a room full of NPC DPS on them already. Are you really complaining about failing to gank a ratter??

The PLEX market has been proven to self balance within days. Just as how quickly the PLEX in game are consumed was confirmed when the website went down and their were almost no PLEX in game to buy within 24 hours. You are the one who can not grasp how it actually works.

I am done with you.
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#582 - 2012-11-20 21:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Singira
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Singira wrote:


BLA BLA trolling

Um are you a complete idiot??

The new A.I. changes are not on Buckingham, they are being tested on duality.

if this has been changed then I got more testing to do.

Even if it was, you would have to find someone ratting on buckingham to gank. I just checked and there are only 176 players logged onto buckingham right now. Who did you try to gank?

The issue with the new A.I. auto targeting ships that warp in and attack the ratter not the NPC's has been fixed.

This is a ganking tactic anyway, I thought you said you were a PVPer? Anyone can kill a PVE ratting ship that has a room full of NPC DPS on them already. Are you really complaining about failing to gank a ratter??

The PLEX market has been proven to self balance within days. Just as how quickly the PLEX in game are consumed was confirmed when the website went down and their were almost no PLEX in game to buy within 24 hours. You are the one who can not grasp how it actually works.

I am done with you.


Did I just write that I tested on my own alt?
I think I did..
Back to the issue of having trouble reading and understanding...

If they are tested on duality can you please explain why it says "Please use Buckingham" when logging on Duality and it has 0 players on it and is not accepting connections?
Really... Roll

http://i50.tinypic.com/m7c1p4.jpg
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#583 - 2012-11-20 21:48:55 UTC
Singira wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Singira wrote:


BLA BLA trolling

Um are you a complete idiot??

The new A.I. changes are not on Buckingham, they are being tested on duality.

if this has been changed then I got more testing to do.

Even if it was, you would have to find someone ratting on buckingham to gank. I just checked and there are only 176 players logged onto buckingham right now. Who did you try to gank?

The issue with the new A.I. auto targeting ships that warp in and attack the ratter not the NPC's has been fixed.

This is a ganking tactic anyway, I thought you said you were a PVPer? Anyone can kill a PVE ratting ship that has a room full of NPC DPS on them already. Are you really complaining about failing to gank a ratter??

The PLEX market has been proven to self balance within days. Just as how quickly the PLEX in game are consumed was confirmed when the website went down and their were almost no PLEX in game to buy within 24 hours. You are the one who can not grasp how it actually works.

I am done with you.


Did I just write that I tested on my own alt?
I think I did..
Back to the issue of having trouble reading and understanding...

If they are tested on duality can you please explain why it says "Please use Buckingham" when logging on Duality and it has 0 players on it and is not accepting connections?
Really... Roll

Duality is an internal testing server. It is only available for us on special occasions. It says use buckingham because duality is only available for open testing at specific times. Only weekends for the last month or so, specifically to test the new A.I.

Also duality gets tweaks and updates constantly it is not as stable a build as buckingham is. Buckingham is used for testing changes that are done and ready to be deployed. Testing for bugs, not input on the changes. If you had actually participated in the tests you would know this.

I have added you to my blocked list, and will not respond to any more of your trolls.
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#584 - 2012-11-20 21:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Singira
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

Huge load of butthurt backpaddle


I now understand why people like you use posting alts, hope to meet you ingame :)

CCP FoxFour wrote:

Hey guys, I have been a bit silent here and for that I apologize. An update on where we stand with the AI changes:


As it stands we are still going ahead with pushing the change to TQ.
While the change did not make it to the current version on Buckingham I have lowered the drone hate of the AI some more.
While we consider the fact that the AI will only shoot your first flight of drones (this is based on specific criteria such as sig radius) and not a second wave to be a defect, we are not publishing the fix with Retribution.
After Retribution we will be making a change to the AI so that they only consider damage being dealt to them as something to increase a targets threat. That way when you warp in to kill someone running an anomaly shooting the player does not make the NPC hate you.
Also after Retribution, and on the same topic as the previous point, we will be making it so that unless you do something like shoot the NPC or repair a player the NPC won't take your signature radius into account when evaluating targets. Even with the above change without this one frigates would still switch targets.


This is where the rest of us are atm.

Note the "After Retribution" wich is what I have been saying all along..
I do believe you owe me an appology and the chewing of your own foot..
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#585 - 2012-11-20 22:58:15 UTC
Right now I am running Damsel in Distress on TQ.
Just had the 2 Spider Drones in the 2nd spawn instalock me and drop my speed from 540 ms/ to a tad over 21 m/s, and were webbing me at 28 km.

I am certain that my PvE experience will become so much more "enjoyable", when my Hobs are instawebbed to 4% of their max speed, and they are oh, I dunno, 10 km from my ship.

Like I said many times, lights and heavies are finished as PvE platforms once this AI is put into full effect.
Miss Silv
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#586 - 2012-11-20 23:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss Silv
If we really wanted to play solo PvE content with rugged intensity and advanced A.I, we'd play singleplayer games. *shocker*

A forced merging of all relaxed PvE content into intense PvP-emulating content is one hell of a díck move.
CaptainFalcon07
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#587 - 2012-11-21 02:59:59 UTC
This is a very short-sighted changed.

You cannot change AI for missions until you change the format of missions.

Large ships usually do not have weapons that are battle to destroy smaller ship that go beyond their tracking other than drones.

If the NPC's destroy your drones, there is nothing you can do except logoff the site and pray that you don't die, wait for someone to help, or sit and die.

This change favors ships that do no require drones such as the Tengu which can reliably hit all sizes of frigs (not quite as well anymore with the nerf).
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#588 - 2012-11-21 07:52:13 UTC  |  Edited by: handige harrie
Guess CCP is back to their old ways;

1. Think of something that isn't broken or a cause for bad gameplay
2. Change it to something new
3. Say you want feedback
4. Ignore said feedback
5. Release broken feature because of 'time constraints'
6. ??
7. Tell community you are sorry for the broken feature, but you can't fix it for 2 years because of 'planning'

examples:

- Dominion SOV system
- Outposts
- (Missing Tech3 5th sub)
- Moon Material Revamp
- Supercaps
- Anomaly nerf
- WIS
- Drone Poo rebalance
- and now the NPC AI

Baddest poster ever
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#589 - 2012-11-21 08:40:24 UTC
Singira wrote:


I do not agree..
I usually do anomalies in my 100mn PvP fit tengu..
I predict this change to have absolutely no influence on my PvE, however my primary PvP pleasures is going down the drain.
Sure I get a little less range, and a little less damage..
But overall, this is going to mean absolutely nothing to my PvE...


You say your doing anoms in your 100mn pvp tengu.. Is it perhaps buffer fitted tengu that uses logistics as reps? That scimi/whatever is going to die when new ai rats switch agro on it...
Taupwnz
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#590 - 2012-11-21 11:13:54 UTC
Keko Khaan wrote:
Singira wrote:


I do not agree..
I usually do anomalies in my 100mn PvP fit tengu..
I predict this change to have absolutely no influence on my PvE, however my primary PvP pleasures is going down the drain.
Sure I get a little less range, and a little less damage..
But overall, this is going to mean absolutely nothing to my PvE...


You say your doing anoms in your 100mn pvp tengu.. Is it perhaps buffer fitted tengu that uses logistics as reps? That scimi/whatever is going to die when new ai rats switch agro on it...

It's tank by paasive shield regeneration.
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#591 - 2012-11-21 11:38:56 UTC
Keko Khaan wrote:

You say your doing anoms in your 100mn pvp tengu.. Is it perhaps buffer fitted tengu that uses logistics as reps? That scimi/whatever is going to die when new ai rats switch agro on it...


None of the rat's hit it really, so no it is solo and yes it is just buffer..
Works just fine for lvl4 missions too..

New AI is still crap imho...

Was merely making a point that it is very possible to PvE with PvP ships..

Obviously a "real" PvE ship is better at it's job, but it can be done..
Grombutz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#592 - 2012-11-21 12:58:22 UTC
Indeed, we could use a real aggro-system, so people could play tanks, healers and/or DPS while fleeted.

This could be the first step to make grouping up more of a teamplay action than it is atm, where all pressure is on the logis.

However, the drone AI change (even though I like it) is terribad. Drones are needed for basically every single turretship ingame (except high DPS factionboats like vindi, mach and/or nightmare).

CCP refuses to change it, but we will see how many critics they earn once people notice that they are stuck in a mission because they can't kill the orbiting scramble-frigg because their drones went poof. Ofcourse, smart missile-users won't have any problem at all, besides a little inconvenience.

TLDR:

Drone AI is a perfectly hidden nerf to most mission/anom/complex-runners.
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#593 - 2012-11-21 13:02:03 UTC
Grombutz wrote:
Indeed, we could use a real aggro-system, so people could play tanks, healers and/or DPS while fleeted.

This could be the first step to make grouping up more of a teamplay action than it is atm, where all pressure is on the logis.

However, the drone AI change (even though I like it) is terribad. Drones are needed for basically every single turretship ingame (except high DPS factionboats like vindi, mach and/or nightmare).

CCP refuses to change it, but we will see how many critics they earn once people notice that they are stuck in a mission because they can't kill the orbiting scramble-frigg because their drones went poof. Ofcourse, smart missile-users won't have any problem at all, besides a little inconvenience.

TLDR:

Drone AI is a perfectly hidden nerf to most mission/anom/complex-runners.



Actually Foxfour said that "After Retribution" they will be making an AI that bases threat on damage done rather than signature radius..
It would just be very interesting to know how long "after Retribution" this is, because the current AI planned is going to be very bad for a lot of playstyles and not really solve any of the issues they set out to solve..
To be honest I have no idea why they are insisting on deploying this instead of just waiting till they have something that works..
Rengerel en Distel
#594 - 2012-11-21 14:02:47 UTC
Singira wrote:

Actually Foxfour said that "After Retribution" they will be making an AI that bases threat on damage done rather than signature radius..
It would just be very interesting to know how long "after Retribution" this is, because the current AI planned is going to be very bad for a lot of playstyles and not really solve any of the issues they set out to solve..
To be honest I have no idea why they are insisting on deploying this instead of just waiting till they have something that works..


My guess is that they have it to an acceptable spot where nothing else is broken, so that means 'it goes live!' ... if the new changes are in the retribution.1 patch, it'd have to be 2 weeks to a month at the earliest if they allow testing. with holidays, vacations, etc. it'd probably be feb.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#595 - 2012-11-21 14:20:33 UTC
Considering 80% of the player base is PVE carebears. Breaking the PVE side of the game could be very bad for business.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#596 - 2012-11-21 16:24:47 UTC
Singira wrote:
Grombutz wrote:
Indeed, we could use a real aggro-system, so people could play tanks, healers and/or DPS while fleeted.

This could be the first step to make grouping up more of a teamplay action than it is atm, where all pressure is on the logis.

However, the drone AI change (even though I like it) is terribad. Drones are needed for basically every single turretship ingame (except high DPS factionboats like vindi, mach and/or nightmare).

CCP refuses to change it, but we will see how many critics they earn once people notice that they are stuck in a mission because they can't kill the orbiting scramble-frigg because their drones went poof. Ofcourse, smart missile-users won't have any problem at all, besides a little inconvenience.

TLDR:

Drone AI is a perfectly hidden nerf to most mission/anom/complex-runners.



Actually Foxfour said that "After Retribution" they will be making an AI that bases threat on damage done rather than signature radius..
It would just be very interesting to know how long "after Retribution" this is, because the current AI planned is going to be very bad for a lot of playstyles and not really solve any of the issues they set out to solve..
To be honest I have no idea why they are insisting on deploying this instead of just waiting till they have something that works..


Yeah, love the part about switching threat assessment to damage rather than sig (not that sig mechanic worked anyway, my drones were insta-aggroed in all missions I tested in an Ishtar, Vargur, and Navy Domi).
So let's see......AI chooses targets based on damage being done.....so I am in an Ishtar, and a single Heavy or Sentry does more damage than my guns (which is the case with the majority of well-skilled pilots)....the AI ignores my hull and goes after the drones.....excellent.
Rengerel en Distel
#597 - 2012-11-21 18:13:02 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Singira wrote:
Grombutz wrote:
Indeed, we could use a real aggro-system, so people could play tanks, healers and/or DPS while fleeted.

This could be the first step to make grouping up more of a teamplay action than it is atm, where all pressure is on the logis.

However, the drone AI change (even though I like it) is terribad. Drones are needed for basically every single turretship ingame (except high DPS factionboats like vindi, mach and/or nightmare).

CCP refuses to change it, but we will see how many critics they earn once people notice that they are stuck in a mission because they can't kill the orbiting scramble-frigg because their drones went poof. Ofcourse, smart missile-users won't have any problem at all, besides a little inconvenience.

TLDR:

Drone AI is a perfectly hidden nerf to most mission/anom/complex-runners.



Actually Foxfour said that "After Retribution" they will be making an AI that bases threat on damage done rather than signature radius..
It would just be very interesting to know how long "after Retribution" this is, because the current AI planned is going to be very bad for a lot of playstyles and not really solve any of the issues they set out to solve..
To be honest I have no idea why they are insisting on deploying this instead of just waiting till they have something that works..


Yeah, love the part about switching threat assessment to damage rather than sig (not that sig mechanic worked anyway, my drones were insta-aggroed in all missions I tested in an Ishtar, Vargur, and Navy Domi).
So let's see......AI chooses targets based on damage being done.....so I am in an Ishtar, and a single Heavy or Sentry does more damage than my guns (which is the case with the majority of well-skilled pilots)....the AI ignores my hull and goes after the drones.....excellent.


That's a pvp fix, you can tell that not many in CCP actually care about the pve end of things. I don't see why they don't just reward direct ISK for pvp kills, and remove pve stuff and save themselves the hassle of pretending.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Sid Grey
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#598 - 2012-11-21 23:25:50 UTC
Apperently we forced CCP into reinforced mode, they wont be attackable/reachable until sometime late January 2013
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#599 - 2012-11-22 00:48:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Singira wrote:
Actually Foxfour said that "After Retribution" they will be making an AI that bases threat on damage done rather than signature radius..
It would just be very interesting to know how long "after Retribution" this is, because the current AI planned is going to be very bad for a lot of playstyles and not really solve any of the issues they set out to solve..


Since FoxFour has been working on numerous projects since deploying this change a few months (2 or 3?) ago... I'd say it's not any sort of priority for his manager's. It's possible the whole bloody mess could linger for another 18 months while we wait for the Dev's to get back to it.

That could be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on just how broken the Rat AI is when it's deployed. If it's deployed in the 'sac a T1 light drone or pull your drones in after they pull aggro and the AI shuts off forever' we won't mind much at all. If it's deployed in the promised 'fix' mode where that 'feature' has been disabled it could be fairly ugly.

Singira wrote:

To be honest I have no idea why they are insisting on deploying this instead of just waiting till they have something that works..


It makes a lovely bullet point? And they can point back to it and say "Look, we tweaked PvE!"
Mund Richard
#600 - 2012-11-22 10:32:09 UTC
Adigard wrote:

That could be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on just how broken the Rat AI is when it's deployed. If it's deployed in the 'sac a T1 light drone or pull your drones in after they pull aggro and the AI shuts off forever' we won't mind much at all. If it's deployed in the promised 'fix' mode where that 'feature' has been disabled it could be fairly ugly.

In all honesty, I don't like that exploit.
Even if it works perfectly, and makes me able to ignore a badly done feature that is claimed to be game design, but mostly just work in development on the TQ test server after december.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.